Questions on power cable and their effect on equipment

[chander]

Hi all,

Let me start by saying that I am not sure if a power cable makes a difference to a system. However while having a discussion with a friend who is visiting me soon with his Chord Qutest, the discussion came up and he is bringing his Furutech roxy power cable (that with god's blessing will hopefully fit on the Genelec) to try with my Genelecs to see the impact. Sadly he has only 1 but that should be enough I guess. He is also bring his Umik 1 microphone to measure.

The question is - If we take a close measurement with the speaker position fixed, and change the power cable and ignoring what we hear, the measurements should ideally be different to show that the cable made an impact? Not looking for a flat or "ideal" graph, but just looking for changes in measurements with cable change.

*** Has this experiment been done before? If so, can someone point us to it and save us a lot of time

Thanks!

 

[drlowmu]

LOL, forget about measuring with a mic. It won't show.

Use your EARS, far more easy and reliable. On the microphone, you are using your EYES to measure an AURAL happening. Use your ears for aural events please !!! Trust your G-D given senses !!!

These power cord differences are typically small, and should be subjectively evaluated.

If your amp has 22 AWG inadequate wiring INSIDE the chassis, as to and from the amp's Power Transformer, and to the on-off switch, and to the fuse block, - some of the differences that a good ( eg : 12 AWG ) power cord makes will tend to get masked. This is just plain common sense, is it not !!

Look at what I did last Friday , early-on with my own Triple 6005 tube amp build.

The " PFA TRIPLE 6005 "..... DIY tube amplifier of 2022.

Hello : A GE black plate 6AQ5 and / or, in this case, a GE 6005, is pictured below. Notice the three circular strengthening ridges in its 12 Watt rated plate? Notice a ROUND plate !! .... Now, go back to Post #59, and re-look inside the EIMAC 304TL. Look at ANY of the...

www.hifivision.com

Have fun learning.

All the wire everywhere you can control ...... it is important.

Just one inch of bad wire can ruin the musical experience.


Jeff

 

[arj]

Got my Popcorn and Coke to watch this thread

..and also the Moderator whip

 

[IndianEars]

I believe Power Cables make a significant difference.

However, the largest sonic impact is when it is placed at the source.... For example powering the DAC. But you can't use it on your DAC

Not sure what difference you will hear (or not hear) in your setup.

I also agree... Use your ears.... If you don't hear a difference, you have money in the bank!

 

[Phew]

...

 

[chander]

Guys! Everyone!

For clarification - I want to understand - "perception of audio change" will be reflected in measurements or not? That is all.
No need to bring out the big guns!

 

[drlowmu]

Guys! Everyone!

For clarification - I want to understand - "perception of audio change" will be reflected in measurements or not? That is all.
No need to bring out the big guns!

Not .

There are very meaningful perceptible / audible changes that can not yet ( in 2023 ) be reflected in measurements.

Measurements that count, include the life-long measurements as ascertained by your ears and brain, and the life-long inputs to aural stimulus you have received, as a result of your ability to hear and differentiate.

Also, the highest performing audio gear in this world today, will have one thing in common. They were not built solely through traditional measurements.

The greatest sounding audio piece will typically measure well, but any penultimate musical expression comes about and was obtained - solely as a result of the designer making aural determinations and adjustments to optimize the circuit.

Such a listening capability is available to almost all of us, and employed highly-`effectively by just a small percentage of us, ie: the exact opposite side of the spectrum !!

Some of the non-listener types will not acknowledge any need to listen, due typically to their direct inexperience and mental mind-set.

The proof of the pudding .................

Jeff

 

[amit11]

Hi all,

Let me start by saying that I am not sure if a power cable makes a difference to a system. However while having a discussion with a friend who is visiting me soon with his Chord Qutest, the discussion came up and he is bringing his Furutech roxy power cable (that with god's blessing will hopefully fit on the Genelec) to try with my Genelecs to see the impact. Sadly he has only 1 but that should be enough I guess. He is also bring his Umik 1 microphone to measure.

The question is - If we take a close measurement with the speaker position fixed, and change the power cable and ignoring what we hear, the measurements should ideally be different to show that the cable made an impact? Not looking for a flat or "ideal" graph, but just looking for changes in measurements with cable change.

*** Has this experiment been done before? If so, can someone point us to it and save us a lot of time

Thanks!

Why start with power cable r&d.

If you get chance to experiment with different power strips at home, i would say first try to experiment with that and if you can hear difference.

In my case, yes i did hear mild differences.

And then i took decision to build my own power strip (using white box and 3 pin plugs), and i found it better.
Also, i used STAR wiring design instead of normal wiring pattern.

 

[chander]

Dear Jeff @drlowmu - thanks for your inputs & opinions.

Also, the highest performing audio gear in this world today, will have one thing in common. They were not built solely through traditional measurements.

Please note - as mentioned above as well, we are not looking at achieving - traditional, ideal, perfect or flat measurements. We are just trying to ascertain if the aural difference will be recorded - even in the minutest - in the name of learning.

We have run 2 similar "experiments" (eye-roll) in the past, where (again ideal measurements not withstanding) the IECs & Speaker cables did change the measurements, thus confirming it was not pure placebo. Again it could be due to material, better connection, inductance/capacitance and other things I do not understand, for me to be sure, that what I am hearing is actually happening; for better or worse not being the point.

I have also heard systems with different power cables, and with just the power cable changing, I haven't been able to distinguish the sound (again, all subjective). Hence this time, we thought we can try it out with the Power cords, as Genelecs are pretty much a self contained unit, so all the impact a power cable can make "should" be more prominent in here - I guess?

****Also please note neither of us can read graphs to understand what they mean, we just see if there is any difference when you lay them over each other on REW.

****Also please note - neither of us are scientists or even qualified to be anywhere near a wire. We just do it cause we are stupid people trying to prove complicated theories with inadequate & often pointless experiments to feel good about ourselves at the end of the day over a drink.

 

[keith_correa]

Question: What is/are the characteristic/s that you intend measuring?

 

[chander]

Question: What is/are the characteristic/s that you intend measuring?

Frankly - I do not have an answer to that. I like solid built, connectors & cables (lusting over good looking gear) and hence wanted to be able to justify the cost of Furutechs Around 20K per side on each speaker will be the cost of the cables - LORD. However the accountant in me is not allowing this.

My friend believes it makes a difference and we have tried "to listen" in his house, where he changed the Furutech roxy on his amp and decided it sounded better in some poetic terms, I didn't hear anything that was noticeable. We did this for around an hour.

So I just want to be able to hear on the Genelecs (sadly only 1) if there is any change between the stock and the fancy cable. And to justify it isn't placebo, I was hoping that the UMIK should pick up something - ANYTHING that looks slightly different on the graph, so I can justify to myself that it is a worthy "investment" .

From an "academic" standpoint - I believe that if we are perceiving a fair bit of difference (I am happy to let go of minute, barely audible, changes that appear only when I am listening critically kind of differences); 31K per cable worth of difference in case of ROXY; I am hoping that it should be picked up in someway by the Microphone as well - anywhere across the spectrum, not "great" measurement, but change in measurement.

 

[keith_correa]

Frankly - I do not have an answer to that. I like solid built, connectors & cables (lusting over good looking gear) and hence wanted to be able to justify the cost of Furutechs Around 20K per side on each speaker will be the cost of the cables - LORD. However the accountant in me is not allowing this.

My friend believes it makes a difference and we have tried "to listen" in his house, where he changed the Furutech roxy on his amp and decided it sounded better in some poetic terms, I didn't hear anything that was noticeable. We did this for around an hour.

So I just want to be able to hear on the Genelecs (sadly only 1) if there is any change between the stock and the fancy cable. And to justify it isn't placebo, I was hoping that the UMIK should pick up something - ANYTHING that looks slightly different on the graph, so I can justify to myself that it is a worthy "investment" .

From an "academic" standpoint - I believe that if we are perceiving a fair bit of difference (I am happy to let go of minute, barely audible, changes that appear only when I am listening critically kind of differences); 31K per cable worth of difference in case of ROXY; I am hoping that it should be picked up in someway by the Microphone as well - anywhere across the spectrum, not "great" measurement, but change in measurement.

I think I wasn't very clear in my question. I meant - what exactly do you hope to measure? Frequency? Phase? Step Response?

As I understand it, you're saying that in the past, you have not heard a difference but want that to be false. And in looking at that to be false, you want to justify that you're wrong by looking at a measurement? Did I get that right?

The question is - If we take a close measurement with the speaker position fixed, and change the power cable and ignoring what we hear, the measurements should ideally be different to show that the cable made an impact? Not looking for a flat or "ideal" graph, but just looking for changes in measurements with cable change.

To come to the point and answer your question:
Yes!
BUT....
If you are in the camp that believes that not all differences are measurable in the realm of the great unknown, then - No!

 

[chander]

I think I wasn't very clear in my question. I meant - what exactly do you hope to measure? Frequency? Phase? Step Response?

I would want to measure the Frequency of the speakers by using a UMIK. Too technical for me what you asked - but I am HOPING if I can hear a difference the UMIK should too.

As I understand it, you're saying that in the past, you have not heard a difference but want that to be false. And in looking at that to be false, you want to justify that you're wrong by looking at a measurement? Did I get that right?

It is complicated but let me try to elaborate. I at some level want to be aware, that an upgrade is a purely aesthetic upgrade or am I supposed to get some gains out of the money spend. I think that is primarily what I want to establish.

To come to the point and answer your question:
Yes!
BUT....
If you are in the camp that believes that not all differences are measurable in the realm of the great unknown, then - No!

Thank you very much for being so succinct with your answer. And I do believe the brain and your auditory senses are a lot more complicated than what a simple microphone can be and that everything is perhaps not measurable (atleast as of today) - or we will simply have answer to everything in the world; that we do not. I have always been doing everything by the ear, except a DB meter on my phone I guess it is curiosity too and some sort of validation to your beliefs I guess?

 

[drlowmu]

Why start with power cable r&d.

If you get chance to experiment with different power strips at home, i would say first try to experiment with that and if you can hear difference.

In my case, yes i did hear mild differences.

And then i took decision to build my own power strip (using white box and 3 pin plugs), and i found it better.
Also, i used STAR wiring design instead of normal wiring pattern.

Or...take the electrical distribution box in your residence, and switch on and off all the MAIN terminal breakers switches, and also the switches feeding your hi fi from the box, to CLEAN the contacts. Maybe ten to twenty times each..

It certainly was audible ( on my DIY tube amp and ALTEC VOTT high efficiency system ), when I did this last year. How many years, and how often, had it been since those switches had been exercised in the last 40 or 50 years ? Two to ten times in half a century as a guess??

The difference was small , once done. But an audible difference was heard !!

Jeff

Caveat : Do this with major electrical appliances and your hi fi, in advance, turned OFF or unplugged. Be aware of what you are doing.

 

[Subbu68]

Make sure it suits the local sockets. Those humungous, glorious looking plugs may not suit and you'd end up with a juggad. Someone in your house may end up "there" because earth pin was not there connected.

If your Genelec has SMPS inside sure it won't mind even modified sine wave AKA square wave leave alone any minute induction through power cables to distort the voltage.

 

[chander]

If your Genelec has SMPS inside

From what I understand and have read, my model does have an SMPS in it.

 

[Subbu68]

From what I understand and have read, my model does have an SMPS in it.

From what I know SMPS supplies output are pretty regulated and do not mind garbage power in.

After all they (PCs, inverters, UPS, VF drives, mobile/tab/laptop chargers, solar PV and now the EV chargers to name a few) generate the garbage and inject back to the power systems. That is what we are grappling with now.

 

[insane79]

Hi all,

Let me start by saying that I am not sure if a power cable makes a difference to a system. However while having a discussion with a friend who is visiting me soon with his Chord Qutest, the discussion came up and he is bringing his Furutech roxy power cable (that with god's blessing will hopefully fit on the Genelec) to try with my Genelecs to see the impact. Sadly he has only 1 but that should be enough I guess. He is also bring his Umik 1 microphone to measure.

The question is - If we take a close measurement with the speaker position fixed, and change the power cable and ignoring what we hear, the measurements should ideally be different to show that the cable made an impact? Not looking for a flat or "ideal" graph, but just looking for changes in measurements with cable change.

*** Has this experiment been done before? If so, can someone point us to it and save us a lot of time

Thanks!

Which Genelecs you got? I have a Furutech power cable for my Stereo Integrated which is attached to the Furutech power conditioner.
You will get the benefit if it's attached to a power conditioner, don't expect miracles especially where the power is so bad in Goa(no offence)
Just plugging the Roxy in to the wall socket, don't expect anything. You need to have your Hi-fi gear attached to another circuit dedicated to it only & also minimum Finolex 12agw internal wiring from the circuit to your wall socket, then yes you will hear the difference, hope you got my point.

Cheers..

 

[Kannan]

I would want to measure the Frequency of the speakers by using a UMIK. Too technical for me what you asked - but I am HOPING if I can hear a difference the UMIK should too.

if you want to physically see any frequency response change by change of cables, just run pink noise and do an RTA measurement with the mic at the same position and at the same spl.
Best is when the ambient noise is at the lowest.
You can even take RTA with your phone mic as you are only looking for differences and not accuracy.

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

We just do it cause we are stupid people trying to prove complicated theories with inadequate & often pointless experiments to feel good about ourselves

You just described all of humanity.

It makes me so happy to hear a human say this about themselves. Even in jest.