Rethm Bhaava - A listening experience
- Thread starter square_wave
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You'll have to turn up volume high as F5 has low gain and DCB1 has no gain.
apk
Well-Known Member
You never know if the price will be increased for this speaker soon. Once that happens, there is going to be a mad scramble and whole new perspectives to discussions
I do hope the prices don't go up any time soon. Am planning to change my setup when I move to a new apartment later in the year - and the Bhaavas are one of the speakers I am keen on.
They currently retail for around 1.25L in India, right?
best,
apk
My question still remains unanswered.
Hari, a Stereophile reviewer has made that statement. So I don't think anybody on this forum can answer that question. And this comes from the magazine that you regard highly and consider is objective in its review
In the past too, a Stereophile reviewer found the Trishna to be the best in the sub USD 5000 category. Also Art Dudley, one of Stereophiles most respected reviewers has praised the Saadhanas very highly.
http://www.rethm.com/RethmStereophile1.pdf
Above is Sam Telligs, another of Stereophile highly respected reviewers, take on Rethm
In the past too, a Stereophile reviewer found the Trishna to be the best in the sub USD 5000 category. Also Art Dudley, one of Stereophiles most respected reviewers has praised the Saadhanas very highly.
http://www.rethm.com/RethmStereophile1.pdf
Above is Sam Telligs, another of Stereophile highly respected reviewers, take on Rethm
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The reason i asked was to understand that most full-range drivers do not measure well, but they sound astonishingly great than the multi-driver counterpart in most cases. I wanted to check if Rethems also fall in the same league or is in a league apart. Hence there will always be no or very few measured response for any FR speakers.
Consider for example this link about Fostex 108Z sigma driver and analyse its response and its subjective listening experience http://www.stereophile.com/content/horn-shoppe-horn-loudspeaker-measurements#3gOumIvHwgUDAGSe.97
Will read this on the weekend. But again no graphs for me to analyze to form my perspective. Luckily i can visit your home for an subjective listening and will plan some time around July. Currently completely occupied with GST
hyeah:
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Hari, the Bhava has a built in bass module with its own amplifier. So do all Rethm models. Some of them have active crossover and some passive. In all models, the full range unit operates with no cutting of the bass while the bass module just fills the lower octave. So technically none of them are single drivers in the true sense of that word. For measurements you need to check with Stereophile and see if they provide you with any.
I genuinely think a single driver with a bass unit which has crossover and vol controls is a great option for small homes because you can tailor the crossover and vol setting. Also it gives you the flexibility of adding more mid bass because a few like it that way. These controls can really help you tailor the sound to your room and to your liking
I genuinely think a single driver with a bass unit which has crossover and vol controls is a great option for small homes because you can tailor the crossover and vol setting. Also it gives you the flexibility of adding more mid bass because a few like it that way. These controls can really help you tailor the sound to your room and to your liking
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It means the low end behaves like a subwoofer below 100Hz and the full-range operate above 100Hz in a Hybrid (TL + Horn) loading. It will be very interesting to check its step response to check phase coherence between the woofer and full-ranger. Subjective listening cannot confirm this only objective measurement will be able to do it.
You can cross it higher also upto 350 Hz and lower upto 55 Hz. Irrespective of where you crossover, the single driver in the Saadhanas will go down till about 50 Hz. So the coherency of the single driver is not lost. This is what Voxativ is also doing in its newer designs
So in the Rethm models, there is no fixed crossover point. It's upto the listener to choose the crossover point. Also the single driver operates full range and the bass is not cut at any point irrespective of the crossover setting. That's what makes the design interesting because it retains the coherency of a single driver with the bass that's normally missing in a single driver. The bass at least in the Saadhanas goes down to 18hz as per measurements made in a Taiwan show
BTW what speaker measurements would you look at for tone, timbre and harmonics.
In the earlier Saadhanas, Jacob was using the Lowther DX 55. Here is a link to what Nelson Pass has to say about these drivers
Alerion Reviews
In the current Saadhanas, Jacob uses his own custom built drivers as a replacement for the DX 55. No idea how they measure though
Here is one more link to the DX 55 performance
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/firstwatt/firstwatt_3.html
So in the Rethm models, there is no fixed crossover point. It's upto the listener to choose the crossover point. Also the single driver operates full range and the bass is not cut at any point irrespective of the crossover setting. That's what makes the design interesting because it retains the coherency of a single driver with the bass that's normally missing in a single driver. The bass at least in the Saadhanas goes down to 18hz as per measurements made in a Taiwan show
BTW what speaker measurements would you look at for tone, timbre and harmonics.
In the earlier Saadhanas, Jacob was using the Lowther DX 55. Here is a link to what Nelson Pass has to say about these drivers
Alerion Reviews
In the current Saadhanas, Jacob uses his own custom built drivers as a replacement for the DX 55. No idea how they measure though
Here is one more link to the DX 55 performance
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/firstwatt/firstwatt_3.html
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Step response, impulse response and schroeder integral response. These will explain to those who can't listen them subjectively.
Hari, wouldn't the Scroeder response be hugely room dependent?
Also would two speakers with the same step response, impulse response and Schroeder response sound the same in terms of tone, timbre and harmonics?
What are these parameters like Schroeder response, step response, etc dependent on? Is it the crossover design, the speaker design, the room, the driver?
Also I have heard a neodymium magnet Lowther and a alnico magnet Lowther. The alnico to my ears has a better tone. So how does one choose a driver for a speaker? What parameters does one look at?
Also would two speakers with the same step response, impulse response and Schroeder response sound the same in terms of tone, timbre and harmonics?
What are these parameters like Schroeder response, step response, etc dependent on? Is it the crossover design, the speaker design, the room, the driver?
Also I have heard a neodymium magnet Lowther and a alnico magnet Lowther. The alnico to my ears has a better tone. So how does one choose a driver for a speaker? What parameters does one look at?
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square_wave
Well-Known Member
Measurements till a certain point to validate integrity of design. The ear is the arbitrator after that point.
Hari, below is a link to a Stereophile article by John Atkinson
Measuring Loudspeakers, Part Two Page 4 | Stereophile.com
This link talks about impulse and step response. According to John Atkinson, a great time and phase coherent speaker does not mean timbre will be good. Also impulse response is dependent on where the mic is placed and is very tweeter led.
I don't think it's simple as you put it. It doesn't harm to have a great step and impulse response but that does not guarantee great sound. In one of the three articles, John even mentions that most of the Stereophile recommended speakers do not necessarily measure well
Measuring Loudspeakers, Part Two Page 4 | Stereophile.com
This link talks about impulse and step response. According to John Atkinson, a great time and phase coherent speaker does not mean timbre will be good. Also impulse response is dependent on where the mic is placed and is very tweeter led.
I don't think it's simple as you put it. It doesn't harm to have a great step and impulse response but that does not guarantee great sound. In one of the three articles, John even mentions that most of the Stereophile recommended speakers do not necessarily measure well
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All big companies design their crossover to do time correction, phase coherence and gain matching usually in dead rooms.
They also use matched drivers that have inaudible differences in T/S parameters.
Similarly care is also taken to design the enclosure to arrest resonance and other parameters.
it is for the company to provide these accurate parameters at the point of sales.
A person going to audition it can have a look at these graphs if he has the technical acumen to understand it and then try to interpret its accuracy with a listening session.
But no one that i know of in my audio circle really likes to listen to a speaker with a 20hz/20khz flat response.
I have friends with discerning ears who EQ to precision to suit their taste and others who hate any kind of EQ (which includes myself).
Thirdly modern music have excessive digitization and a bumped up SPL with hardly any natural timbre of instruments, compare a Jimi Hendrix guitar pluck to a modern guitar recording and one can realize what is missing or a soulful strumming by Gary Gilmour or even the layers in percussion that hardly sounds human in modern recordings.
The electronics have to struggle to match to modern recordings as compared to a much more balanced recordings of the yore.
Ultimately the aspects of response measurements has to be left to the speaker designer or a DIY enthusiast, but for the end user, there is no better tool than his ears.
Also, how many can afford to correct their rooms which is the biggest contributor to colouration, irrespective of how well the speakers are designed.
For the passionate, it is a never ending journey for the search of the elusive.
Happy listening
They also use matched drivers that have inaudible differences in T/S parameters.
Similarly care is also taken to design the enclosure to arrest resonance and other parameters.
it is for the company to provide these accurate parameters at the point of sales.
A person going to audition it can have a look at these graphs if he has the technical acumen to understand it and then try to interpret its accuracy with a listening session.
But no one that i know of in my audio circle really likes to listen to a speaker with a 20hz/20khz flat response.
I have friends with discerning ears who EQ to precision to suit their taste and others who hate any kind of EQ (which includes myself).
Thirdly modern music have excessive digitization and a bumped up SPL with hardly any natural timbre of instruments, compare a Jimi Hendrix guitar pluck to a modern guitar recording and one can realize what is missing or a soulful strumming by Gary Gilmour or even the layers in percussion that hardly sounds human in modern recordings.
The electronics have to struggle to match to modern recordings as compared to a much more balanced recordings of the yore.
Ultimately the aspects of response measurements has to be left to the speaker designer or a DIY enthusiast, but for the end user, there is no better tool than his ears.
Also, how many can afford to correct their rooms which is the biggest contributor to colouration, irrespective of how well the speakers are designed.
For the passionate, it is a never ending journey for the search of the elusive.
Happy listening
No i dont think so as its a filtered impulse response which study only the step. Gating will be of no use here and hence its not room dependent.
Yes, if the system phase and filter phase are also the same.
Box loading & stuffing, and more on crossover design (particularly the filter phase, SPL phase and Impedance Phase). A clean & smooth Schroeder response will indicate good integration between lows, mids and highs. Also the step response will be very good and with a clean impulse response. Impulse response will indicate if there are any energy storage in the box after the initial rising pulse.
I have not heard much of Alnico magnet speaker and will not be able to comment on that. This imo will form the subjective analysis of listening.
For me depending upon the loading reqd (vented, TL, OB or horn) i will look at important parameters - Vas, Qtc, Qes, Qms, BL, Fs, Mms, Le, Z, Re to name a few.
No doubt on that. Any amount of objective measurement cannot replace subjective listening.
I usually never do any measurement for a week after i build my speakers the reason being i don't want my subjective listening to be influenced by what i have objectively measured. After i have completed my subjective listening for a week, i go ahead and do objective measurement.
I usually maintain an excel of all my subjective parameters and make a note of how i felt about the subjective part before any measurements.
The objective measurement is more to co-relate with my subjective findings. It should never be the other way round imo.
Why i am asking for the objective measurements for the Rethm Bhaava is because it would not be immediately possible for me to listen to them. Hence from the objective measuremetns i can atleast make some personal opinion of how they could probably sound because of my experience in doing both.
I have read this article and also a video presentation in youtube many years ago.
The industry standard for measurement is 1w/1m but can vary depending upon the size of your woofer. The step response is usually measured at the tweeter axis and the woofer typically having a larger wavelength if is in constructive interference at the mic position will show a perfect step. Some movement of the mic can again ruin the step response measured and hence you need to be consistently measure at this reference point.
At your sitting position the step would not be accurate as you dont sit at 1m and dont play at 1w.
Also in his video JA has mentioned that its very difficult to find a speaker that does not measure very well but sound too good. But if you see any full range drivers reviews, they mesusre bad but subjective claims are very different.
I am not aware of why Stereophile recommended speakers do not measure well but are still recommended. May be there is some commercial angle to it (not sure though).
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SoundCraft
Active Member
Am very glad to finally see some constructive debate on Subjective Vs Objective.
I see many here prefer to listen to a speaker or a setup to see whether they like it or not rather than sit and read pages upon pages of Waterfall,impulse,impedance and what not graphs,Although the idea of measurements are good in theory but in practical as others have stated it's always ears that one must and has to go by.
Well quite frankly I myself like to listen to a speaker rather than read pages of smoothed and or subverted curves/graphs ! But have always had some sort of problem in convincing some people to give more importance to what they listening than what they reading !
It took a Rethm and a Bhava to bring this factor to the limelight now else Am 100% sure if the same words were written or said in any other thread,Lets a DIY Speaker or a small boutique companies product thread,Thread would've by now escalated into a full blown war and most of the people would've ruled that speaker out as a mere co-incidence or a fluke or whatever.
Just cause Bhava has got rave reviews and is being represented by who's who of the Audio world in the west,We Indians like to appreciate that even more ( Also added to the fact that it retails at double the price there helps to its advantage too),Now Am not in the very least suggesting or out rightly saying anything about the Bhava's themselves ( I have not heard them yet,So for all intentions and purposes I will go with majority and say they are brilliant),But merely pointing out that if a product is sold in the west and commands a good position there it automatically becomes a hit here with or without any graphs,where as majority of DIY or a small time Indian company will never get to enjoy such fan following !
Am very very sure had it not been for that by now most people would've ruled the Bhava's out just as they have done before to countless DIY and small time manufacturers ! Again Rethm is mere example and I have nothing against it.
Am sure we can show the same respect or the very least some appreciation towards some of the serious folks who have done some wonderful work in the same field who unfortunately are not half as famous as Rethm ! I do not wish to name and make this take a different turn.
I just wanted to put my views on the subject that one should not harp about the lack of graphs and such and simply listen to a speaker and make up one's mind ! Because at the end of the day most of us spend few mins to a few hours in listening to a speaker and selecting it (may be few with brains to interpret the graphs look at it once or twice not more) ,Which becomes our primary speakers for years to come,I have heard or seen anyone sitting and reading those graphs day after day and appreciate how good they are on paper and not hear the actual speaker which was bought purely because it was superior on paper with all the right graphs !!
Am sorry if this has in anyway derailed the thread, Also I suggest that the Non Bhava posts be separated and put in the new thread and people interested can discuss stuff there and this thread be purely dedicated to the Bhava's.
I see many here prefer to listen to a speaker or a setup to see whether they like it or not rather than sit and read pages upon pages of Waterfall,impulse,impedance and what not graphs,Although the idea of measurements are good in theory but in practical as others have stated it's always ears that one must and has to go by.
Well quite frankly I myself like to listen to a speaker rather than read pages of smoothed and or subverted curves/graphs ! But have always had some sort of problem in convincing some people to give more importance to what they listening than what they reading !
It took a Rethm and a Bhava to bring this factor to the limelight now else Am 100% sure if the same words were written or said in any other thread,Lets a DIY Speaker or a small boutique companies product thread,Thread would've by now escalated into a full blown war and most of the people would've ruled that speaker out as a mere co-incidence or a fluke or whatever.
Just cause Bhava has got rave reviews and is being represented by who's who of the Audio world in the west,We Indians like to appreciate that even more ( Also added to the fact that it retails at double the price there helps to its advantage too),Now Am not in the very least suggesting or out rightly saying anything about the Bhava's themselves ( I have not heard them yet,So for all intentions and purposes I will go with majority and say they are brilliant),But merely pointing out that if a product is sold in the west and commands a good position there it automatically becomes a hit here with or without any graphs,where as majority of DIY or a small time Indian company will never get to enjoy such fan following !
Am very very sure had it not been for that by now most people would've ruled the Bhava's out just as they have done before to countless DIY and small time manufacturers ! Again Rethm is mere example and I have nothing against it.
Am sure we can show the same respect or the very least some appreciation towards some of the serious folks who have done some wonderful work in the same field who unfortunately are not half as famous as Rethm ! I do not wish to name and make this take a different turn.
I just wanted to put my views on the subject that one should not harp about the lack of graphs and such and simply listen to a speaker and make up one's mind ! Because at the end of the day most of us spend few mins to a few hours in listening to a speaker and selecting it (may be few with brains to interpret the graphs look at it once or twice not more) ,Which becomes our primary speakers for years to come,I have heard or seen anyone sitting and reading those graphs day after day and appreciate how good they are on paper and not hear the actual speaker which was bought purely because it was superior on paper with all the right graphs !!
Am sorry if this has in anyway derailed the thread, Also I suggest that the Non Bhava posts be separated and put in the new thread and people interested can discuss stuff there and this thread be purely dedicated to the Bhava's.
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square_wave
Well-Known Member
@ Soundcraft,
Good points.
I have been following Indian products for more than a decade now. Making loudspeakers is not exactly rocket science anymore especially if you are only after great measurements. There are zillion such manufacturers worldwide. A lot of them are in china. Most designs are well documented and speaker units with published measurements are available off the shelf. All kinds of crossover and cabinet designs are well documented. Any aspiring speaker designer with common sense and some listening skills can make a great measuring loudspeaker these days. Marketing skills is what will sell them or not !!
However, there are very few designs out there which sound special ( Indian or western make ). The ones that never let you turn your music system off. They make a lasting impression upon your mind. When you encounter such designs, you write about them. You share the experience.
So far, I have encountered "some" such speakers from Cadence, Rethm, and some models from Acoustic portrait and Audire from India.
I have also heard about / sometimes encountered some high end diy for personal use as well. These wonderful folks have no interest in the market hence they dont make any noise about them.
However, I have not personally encountered any other speaker brand that made a lasting impression from India. It would be great if people can share their experience with other Indian brands as well.
Good points.
I have been following Indian products for more than a decade now. Making loudspeakers is not exactly rocket science anymore especially if you are only after great measurements. There are zillion such manufacturers worldwide. A lot of them are in china. Most designs are well documented and speaker units with published measurements are available off the shelf. All kinds of crossover and cabinet designs are well documented. Any aspiring speaker designer with common sense and some listening skills can make a great measuring loudspeaker these days. Marketing skills is what will sell them or not !!
However, there are very few designs out there which sound special ( Indian or western make ). The ones that never let you turn your music system off. They make a lasting impression upon your mind. When you encounter such designs, you write about them. You share the experience.
So far, I have encountered "some" such speakers from Cadence, Rethm, and some models from Acoustic portrait and Audire from India.
I have also heard about / sometimes encountered some high end diy for personal use as well. These wonderful folks have no interest in the market hence they dont make any noise about them.
However, I have not personally encountered any other speaker brand that made a lasting impression from India. It would be great if people can share their experience with other Indian brands as well.
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Yes, we must respect and appreciate serious folks.
However, it is too tough to show respect and appreciation to said serious folks if we don't even know them!
For excellent sound that won't break the bank, the 5 Star Award Winning Wharfedale Diamond 12.1 Bookshelf Speakers is the one to consider!
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