Soundstage Height Issue

[Hari Iyer]

@ my home I earlier use to have symmetric placement with speaker placed in golden ratio and at 1/5 th the width of the room. This never gave me a holographic sound stage and the sweet spot was very narrow / small. Also my sitting position was in right angle to the speaker position due to this placement.

I have now successful managed a diagonal speaker placement both by listening and measurements and this is going to stay atleast till my OB is modified. The diagonal placement the speakers are now 45 Deg to my sitting position and the first reflection point are pushed away or does not affect my sitting location. This position gives me a super holographic sound stage, precise center image which is razor sharp without any toe-in. Also the speaker are neither parallel or perpendicular to any wall there by minimizing any possible standing waves. Also the harshness due to room reflection is removed.

 

[audiopro]

@audiopro ,,looks like I will have to send bottles to you and @Hari Iyer .
Tried what you have suggested. I.e toed in the left speaker ,toed out the right speaker.the left speaker was moved to left as it was a little hot .the right speaker was moved forward.the sound was holographic now.but the tone and imaging is affected .sort of smeared sound may be.All I need to do now is fine tune as I now know that my set up can produce height.Finally the singer is standing even though he is not tall ,atleast he is standing now. . Thanks again as this has opened a new pathway

What is the distance that you now have between the two speakers?

Are the speakers in the same plane or is one speaker ahead of the other? Sometimes the stands bases are aligned but the speakers are placed slightly in front or behind on the stand.

Some more steps to be taken.
Keep the right speaker toed out but with very minimum toe out. Leave the left as is for now.

If you already have used minimum toe out for the right and it's still smeared move the right speaker to the left by half an inch or so at a time till you get the correct balance. This will mostly give you the correct balance between tone, harmonics and imaging for your room.

What Sachin said was correct too. You have to choose between tone, harmonics vs a soundstage height etc. It's usually a balance between the two that one settles for. But since you mentioned you'd like more tone and sharper imaging try the above and if not read on.

1. First try what I mentioned above. If that gives you what you are looking for then you're done. If not then mark the spots where you are getting height with the speakers so you can always go back.

2. This technique works better for slim modern designs but try it. Since your listening distance is 9 feet space the speakers about 8 feet apart. Aim the left speaker at roughly your right ear when you are seated. Aim the right speaker at your left ear. This way you are crossing the speakers a little in front of you. Now slowly start toeing out the right speaker. So it will move from having toe in to having less toe in to become straight and maybe toe out. Somewhere you will find the spot. See if the sound is tonally what you like. If your not getting height pull the speakers a mm or so at a time in front. You can pull them about one inch totally in front or so with each mm movement.

3. If this also fails or doesn't sound right then do the following. Set your harbeth's firing straight ahead but they should be about 6 feet apart. Let the right be about 1m from the right wall or curtain. Listen. If you feel the image too strong or clobbed together move the left speaker to the left half an inch at a time. You can maintain an eventual distance between speakers of even 9 feet since you are at a 9 foot distance. Listen. If you find a spot where you like the tonal balance but have soundstage issues like balance to the left or no height then start toeing in the left speaker just a little at a time till it hits the spot. if you feel the sound lacks bite then start moving both speakers a tad in front till it locks in. Like Hari said this is like a focus ring so small movements will have changes.

Hope this helps. Try not to move furniture around post doing the setup as it will change the sound. In one pic your sofa chairs are on the sides of the speakers while in the second pic they are on the sides of your listening chair. Keep us posted as this is an interesting exercise. Like watching Narcos or something rad.

 

[Deleted member 15865]

Given that that there is a wall on the right side and open on the left side, the room has asymmetric conditions and hence wouldn't there be a requirement for asymmetric toe-in / distancing?

That is my situation and was my assumption too when I tried it. I have a wall corner (laterally a foot away from the speaker) on one side that meets in a French window and open space (about 4 feet) on the other side.

 

[prem]

My room too is asymmetric but I prefer a symmetric arrangement

 

[oracle1974]

My room too is asymmetric but I prefer a symmetric arrangement

Hi Prem, a symmetric arrangement in an asymmetric room would mean one is excluding the room geometry from the equation. Would that be correct to say?

 

[prem]

I don’t know oracle1974. All I know is I tried various settings. Only the symmetric one worked.

 

[Shinto]

What is the distance that you now have between the two speakers?

Are the speakers in the same plane or is one speaker ahead of the other? Sometimes the stands bases are aligned but the speakers are placed slightly in front or behind on the stand.

Some more steps to be taken.
Keep the right speaker toed out but with very minimum toe out. Leave the left as is for now.

If you already have used minimum toe out for the right and it's still smeared move the right speaker to the left by half an inch or so at a time till you get the correct balance. This will mostly give you the correct balance between tone, harmonics and imaging for your room.

What Sachin said was correct too. You have to choose between tone, harmonics vs a soundstage height etc. It's usually a balance between the two that one settles for. But since you mentioned you'd like more tone and sharper imaging try the above and if not read on.

1. First try what I mentioned above. If that gives you what you are looking for then you're done. If not then mark the spots where you are getting height with the speakers so you can always go back.

2. This technique works better for slim modern designs but try it. Since your listening distance is 9 feet space the speakers about 8 feet apart. Aim the left speaker at roughly your right ear when you are seated. Aim the right speaker at your left ear. This way you are crossing the speakers a little in front of you. Now slowly start toeing out the right speaker. So it will move from having toe in to having less toe in to become straight and maybe toe out. Somewhere you will find the spot. See if the sound is tonally what you like. If your not getting height pull the speakers a mm or so at a time in front. You can pull them about one inch totally in front or so with each mm movement.

3. If this also fails or doesn't sound right then do the following. Set your harbeth's firing straight ahead but they should be about 6 feet apart. Let the right be about 1m from the right wall or curtain. Listen. If you feel the image too strong or clobbed together move the left speaker to the left half an inch at a time. You can maintain an eventual distance between speakers of even 9 feet since you are at a 9 foot distance. Listen. If you find a spot where you like the tonal balance but have soundstage issues like balance to the left or no height then start toeing in the left speaker just a little at a time till it hits the spot. if you feel the sound lacks bite then start moving both speakers a tad in front till it locks in. Like Hari said this is like a focus ring so small movements will have changes.

Hope this helps. Try not to move furniture around post doing the setup as it will change the sound. In one pic your sofa chairs are on the sides of the speakers while in the second pic they are on the sides of your listening chair. Keep us posted as this is an interesting exercise. Like watching Narcos or something rad.

@audiopro
Thanking your effort for this detailed write up. I will try all these and will report back.

 

[audiopro]

@audiopro
Thanking your effort for this detailed write up. I will try all these and will report back.

How does the story end or part deux?

 

[Shinto]

How does the story end or part deux?

Hi ,@audiopro ,Ended up with a symmetrical placement for now .both speakers are firing straight with zero toe in with exactly same measurements from the front wall( down to 1 or 2 mm).speakers were moved laterally until I think I found a balance in tonality and imaging.the height is pretty okay,not great,the holographic thing is also lost.But it is a compromise I made for tonality and imaging and I am happy for now.one thing I have not tried yet is the extreme toe in option ( your second option) which I will try soon .with the exercises I now know that the setup has the potential for height and holographic . thanks to you again. also special thanks to @prem and @SachinChavan for the advice on symmetrical placement.

 

[Deleted member 15865]

@Shinto, please try a small experiment - if not for yourself, for my sake. Play a song (with enough matter - like a Hindi new song or so) and then play the same but after you open the two drawers on that cabinet. Don’t need to open them fully just say by 3 inches. Do you hear any difference?

 

[audiopro]

@Shinto, please try a small experiment - if not for yourself, for my sake. Play a song (with enough matter - like a Hindi new song or so) and then play the same but after you open the two drawers on that cabinet. Don’t need to open them fully just say by 3 inches. Do you hear any difference?

That combo move usually makes the genie appear.

 

[Shinto]

@Shinto, please try a small experiment - if not for yourself, for my sake. Play a song (with enough matter - like a Hindi new song or so) and then play the same but after you open the two drawers on that cabinet. Don’t need to open them fully just say by 3 inches. Do you hear any difference?

Hi Sachin,I tried it briefly, but can't find any difference.Can I ask the reason??

 

[Deleted member 15865]

Hi Sachin,I tried it briefly, but can't find any difference.Can I ask the reason??

Thanks @Shinto. Wanted another data point. I have a cabinet, larger than yours on which the equipment (transport, streamer, amp) sit. Recently when on an epiphany I experimented crack opening the drawers and doors, I found the sound get more open and airy, with reduced boom. The hypothesis is when closed the drawers act like boxes that add resonance. So wanted to cross check with your experience. Thanks for trying out.

 

[Shinto]

Hi All,

As you all know and as discussed in this thread, I was not happy with the sound stage of my setup.It was leaning to a side , smeared, not high etc..
Most of the issues were fixed following the advice from our esteemed forum members.
Specially remembering advice from @audiopro on speaker positioning.
Also thanking all forum members who spent time with your inputs in this thread.
Even though most of the issues were fixed,I always felt something is still wrong.

Now to the story,

Special thanks to forum member @Orko for his inputs.
Knowing he was a happy user of Harbeth 30.1, I approached him for help.The conversation started with me asking advice on changing my amplifier to some thing better knowing he use croft integrated and I wanted to know more about croft.
Orko suggested using open timer stands which in his setup was a major improvement.To start with , to know if it would make any difference in my setup, he suggested isolating my speakers from my stands.
Special thanks to @prem for suggesting this earlier, but I was hesitating to try it as I was afraid of the stability of my speakers with my 4 yr old running around.
So I started the exercise by placing rubber spacers under the speakers.To my surprise, the improvement was very evident.Much more coherent open sound.This gave the go ahead to procure a timber open stand.Unfortunately,the timber open stands are very expensive to buy or even get it made by a Carpenter(in this country).
The only option was DIY. So I managed to make one myself.(see image)
To my surprise the sound was not to my liking, it was an open sound but no focus, no bass definition etc.
So I played with the positioning as Orko suggested.
But I was still not happy with the results.The reference was the coherent sound I achieved with the spacers on my original glass stand.

So I went ahead with the following exercises,

Step 1: A sandstone slab placed under the timber stands.The sound was more lively. But the sound was not to my liking.

Step 2:Managed to insert thread inserts under the timber stands(It was a risky move as it could break the timber tenons) some how managed it and spiked the stands. repositioned the speakers, now sound was more hifi, more focused bass,etc etc.. but ..still not satisfied..

Step 3: Placed rubber spacers on the timber tenons under the speakers .Didnt work to my expectation.

Step 3; Gone back to the original point were I started , i.e original glass stands with rubber spacers under speakers.Due to change from original position or so , i did not achieve the sound I was looking for , so I played with the positioning further and still was not satisfied.

Step 4: Now I removed the spikes from my glass stand and replaced them with 6mm furniture glide insert( see image) to decouple the stands as well to an extent.and now I think I have achieved what I was looking for.

So happy with the result(step 4) as of now, more coherent sound open sound where music sounds as a whole thing, now it it is difficult to focus on individual aspects of the hifi like sound stage, bass, treble,, etc etc..Can I say the system is more musical, what I hear now is music which makes you feel that everything in the recording has a reason, if that makes sense.

So decoupling works in my room I think..

So the moral of the story is,

1. please don't disregard the importance of speaker positioning.
2. equally important is the coupling/decoupling of your speakers.decoupling worked in my setup.
3. raising the bottom of speakers, will improve the sound at least in my case (BBC thin wall monitors).

Note: The front wall position is 1/7 to the front baffle of the speaker from front wall ,1/3 and 1/5 are not practical in my room. .This comes from @prem s speaker positioning thread.
1/7 th works the magic, even though I can move the speakers a little more into the room,the sound is best at 1/7 th. If I move the speakers further into the room, the sound degrades contrary to what you would expect.

Question:Still wondering why the timber stands didn't work as expected.Any idea??

 

[firearm12]

The timber stand in the picture doesnt have a wood base over which speaker resides. Is it intentional. A stable base would be very important imo for stability and sound.

 

[Deleted member 15865]

So happy with the result(step 4) as of now, more coherent sound open sound where music sounds as a whole thing, now it it is difficult to focus on individual aspects of the hifi like sound stage, bass, treble,, etc etc..Can I say the system is more musical, what I hear now is music which makes you feel that everything in the recording has a reason, if that makes sense.

Good to know your persistent efforts paid off and you are getting a sound you are happy with. And that the musicality of the speakers is letting you forget the hi-fi properties and immerse into the music instead. Hope therefore that the height of the soundstage (that it doesn’t soar high like some other speakers you’d heard) is no more a bothering issue.

Each speaker has its strengths and is best played to those strengths.

 

[Shinto]

The timber stand in the picture doesnt have a wood base over which speaker resides. Is it intentional. A stable base would be very important imo for stability and sound.

It is intentional to not have a base to allow the cabinet to resonate.

Good to know your persistent efforts paid off and you are getting a sound you are happy with. And that the musicality of the speakers is letting you forget the hi-fi properties and immerse into the music instead. Hope therefore that the height of the soundstage (that it doesn’t soar high like some other speakers you’d heard) is no more a bothering issue.

Each speaker has its strengths and is best played to those strengths.

The height is no more a bothering issue.now the sound is such that I will have to pay real attention to measure the height of the soundstage .and if I do measure it , it is high enough,may be just above the top of the speakers.when I started this thread,the sound stage was very low in height and it was very evident and caught attention.

 

[Analogous]

i was reading the very interesting posts on this thread. Till I read this I did not think much about the height of the sound image (or the lack of it) from my system. I was mostly preoccupied with the width and trying to discern depth of the soundstage (is there a dedicated thread for this?)

i am wondering if I placed the speakers with the tweeters higher up than my listening position and angled down, maybe toed in....would I achieve a taller image? Has anyone tried this?

 

[firearm12]

i was reading the very interesting posts on this thread. Till I read this I did not think much about the height of the sound image (or the lack of it) from my system.

Rule no. 1. If it ain't broken dont fix it.

i am wondering if I placed the speakers with the tweeters higher up than my listening position and angled down, maybe toed in....would I achieve a taller image? Has anyone tried this?

If tweeters are angled down it will collapse the soundstage as floor is in direct path to sound waves. angling the speakers up so that they face empty area below ceiling increases soundstage.

 

[keith_correa]

i am wondering if I placed the speakers with the tweeters higher up than my listening position and angled down, maybe toed in....would I achieve a taller image? Has anyone tried this?

The time alignment of the drivers will change.