Btw, i am 100%+ sure that those who speak of silver plated cables have never seen in their hand a Mill spec silver plated wire - forget using and trying them - and there is no end of commenting how they sound. This is the thing i hate this forum about. Not experiencing with the particular wire written and simply commenting - just for the sake of commenting.
Speaker cables - Hari Iyer's Cable Experiment
- Thread starter Hari Iyer
- Start date
why hate the Forum ! most forums are like that on everything from cables to tubes to LPs ie commenting based on 2nd hand knowledge
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Subbu68
Well-Known Member
Seeing all these recommendations for MIL SPEC wires, I too thought why MIL SPEC is not used in power industry if it is deemed superior.
Yes, MIL SPEC wires and cables will withstand harsher conditions but the products or installations cannot get certified since they are not meeting UL or other standards!!! If your equipment does not need certification (typical DIY) or you are building a battle tank no harm using them. They can replace regular IEC wires.
A MIL SPEC wire need not guarantee better electrical properties. Also MIL SPEC need not meet the EMC requirements of commercial applications. We don't let a gram of SF6 (sulfur hexaflouride the gas with the highest Global Warming Potential - 23,900 times of CO2) leak into atmosphere while stealth technology is based on leaking the gas in copious volumes. So all that is MIL SPEC need not be better.
www.sycor.com
www.sycor.com
www.awcwire.com
Hate is a very strong word to use. After joining this forum I am learning new stuff and prompted to research more on stuff I had misconceptions about and come out with conclusions that corroborate with science and engineering I can understand.
There may be difference of opinion or understanding and all of us are differently educated, differently experienced, different attitudes towards other's opinions and so on... Get along with others.
Yes, MIL SPEC wires and cables will withstand harsher conditions but the products or installations cannot get certified since they are not meeting UL or other standards!!! If your equipment does not need certification (typical DIY) or you are building a battle tank no harm using them. They can replace regular IEC wires.
A MIL SPEC wire need not guarantee better electrical properties. Also MIL SPEC need not meet the EMC requirements of commercial applications. We don't let a gram of SF6 (sulfur hexaflouride the gas with the highest Global Warming Potential - 23,900 times of CO2) leak into atmosphere while stealth technology is based on leaking the gas in copious volumes. So all that is MIL SPEC need not be better.
Hook-Up Wire VS Mil-Spec
Our team compares the popular Hook-Up wires & Mil-Spec wires, while highlighting the pros and cons of each.
Mil-Spec Wire Explained
Mil-Spec Wire and Cable FAQs | Allied University
Read Allied Wire and Cable’s answers to frequently asked questions about Mil-Spec Wire and Cable through Allied University.
Hate is a very strong word to use. After joining this forum I am learning new stuff and prompted to research more on stuff I had misconceptions about and come out with conclusions that corroborate with science and engineering I can understand.
There may be difference of opinion or understanding and all of us are differently educated, differently experienced, different attitudes towards other's opinions and so on... Get along with others.
+1 to about corroborating with science. The thing that HF, LF or any frequency travel at the same speed across the wire is science. However different signals will get attenuated differently and that too is science. Sometimes people think that logically HF should travel faster. There was a time when people thought that dropping two balls of different size from a tall building, the larger ball will travel faster and hit the ground first. It was Newton who showed that the speed is only dependent on the gravitational acceleration of 9.834 m/s and it has nothing to do with the mass of the object. It is just s = (1/2)gt² where is the height or distance travelled, g=9.834 m/s t is the time taken.
Galileo did lot of these experiments with free fall much before Newton though it was Newton how showed mathematical proof. Galileo paid a heavy price for disputing what was believed in those days. In the end he even had to ask for forgiveness and tell that whatever he said was nonsense. Lot of times when people talk about science, it may tread into the realm of vodoo, religion, mysticism and commonly held belief and may cause friction. It is also possible for people of science to reject something outright without any basis or carrying out experiments. So best is to listen to all. If one is convinced about something, one shouldn't give a flying f about anyone elses opinion rather than go ballistic on someone.
Things are so much better than the Galileo days. This is just a forum. If something is unpalatable, one can rebut with mathemical/scientific proof or provide a better explanation or just be silent and move on.
Here is a good explanation at what is happening. This was posted in the long running thread objectivity vs subjectivity and is a very good read.
Why we need a new kind of education: Imagination Studies | Aeon Essays
We need a new kind of approach to learning that shifts imagination from the periphery to the foundation of all knowledge
aeon.co
In some ways yes and in some ways no. I believe a gentleman during newtons time actually went ahead and said that " we have learnt and discovered everything there is to science and there is nothing left". Imagine we did not even have electricity then !<snip>
Things are so much better than the Galileo days. This is just a forum. If something is unpalatable, one can rebut with mathemical/scientific proof or provide a better explanation or just be silent and move on.
Here is a good explanation at what is happening. This was posted in the long running thread objectivity vs subjectivity and is a very good read.
Why we need a new kind of education: Imagination Studies | Aeon Essays
We need a new kind of approach to learning that shifts imagination from the periphery to the foundation of all knowledge
Still see the statement today in trying to explain stuff based on todays knowledge and if it cannot be explained proclaim the phenomena to be false
thats against the very principles of science !
Subbu68,
I liked the last paragraph of your above post !! Very intelligent - cogent.
Factors that you mention, EMC requirements for commercial applications, etc, frankly are inconsequential to me, even though this is from your work background.
IMHO, IME :
the only reason to use m22759/11 ( in the precise manner outlined ), is because it provides the best audio performance, ( in high-resolution tube audio systems ), at the absolute lowest possible cost.
This is why I have written it up, for certain HFV readers to be aware of. If F.M.s want to act on it, complete DIY construction and implementation details have been provided on HFV.
If anyone needs help DIYing, or has questions, feel free to P.M. me, one to one.
Best wishes to all,
Jeff
I liked the last paragraph of your above post !! Very intelligent - cogent.
Factors that you mention, EMC requirements for commercial applications, etc, frankly are inconsequential to me, even though this is from your work background.
IMHO, IME :
the only reason to use m22759/11 ( in the precise manner outlined ), is because it provides the best audio performance, ( in high-resolution tube audio systems ), at the absolute lowest possible cost.
This is why I have written it up, for certain HFV readers to be aware of. If F.M.s want to act on it, complete DIY construction and implementation details have been provided on HFV.
If anyone needs help DIYing, or has questions, feel free to P.M. me, one to one.
Best wishes to all,
Jeff
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@arj I fully agree with you.In some ways yes and in some ways no. I believe a gentleman during newtons time actually went ahead and said that " we have learnt and discovered everything there is to science and there is nothing left". Imagine we did not even have electricity then !
Still see the statement today in trying to explain stuff based on todays knowledge and if it cannot be explained proclaim the phenomena to be false
If your ears can hear a difference, it is the responsibility of scientists to explain it, without just phoo phooing your experience away because it is not compatible with current scientific knowledge.
Anyway, this thread is about the material used in speaker wires and it will be meaningful if all members stick to that question.
All knowledge in any discipline and at any time, is incomplete. Consequently, no truly thoughtful person would proclaim that a phenomenon is outright false simply because it can not be explained on the basis of current knowledge. But that's not the problem. It's ok for someone to say "I did this......and this is what I heard. The problem is when someone proposes an explanation that is nothing more than a personal opinion and that contradicts well established principles in physics, math, engineering and science. And, the worst part is when EEs and the so-called "highly educated" are berated for simply calling attention to the sort of nonsensical and voodoo-based explanations that are sometimes proposed.In some ways yes and in some ways no. I believe a gentleman during newtons time actually went ahead and said that " we have learnt and discovered everything there is to science and there is nothing left". Imagine we did not even have electricity then !
Still see the statement today in trying to explain stuff based on todays knowledge and if it cannot be explained proclaim the phenomena to be false
Someone's belief that they hear a difference does not constitute proof that a difference actually exists. And, scientists can only pursue explanations for phenomenon that actually exist.
Everyone is not a scientist and would not know or maybe not intrested in the reason but only experiment and be happy. If someone reads that and have faith and want to try and discover it's up to him. Peace.
Wondering - Does that mean that only cooks who have graduated from a catering college can make good food and others cannot?
Not to mention that "hearing the difference" claim goes up in smoke in double blind tests.
I agree that if one can hear difference consistently in double blind tests, then the claim cannot be dismissed and scientific explanation should be sought for it.
Would it be possible to share the polycab cable link you bought?
I found following dc cable link at Polycab site:
Polycab Solar DC Cable
Specially engineered Polycab Solar DC Cable is flame retardant, and hydrolysis resistant. The cable connects electrical components with the solar panels.
polycab.com
Yes. From AmazonWould it be possible to share the polycab cable link you bought?
I found following dc cable link at Polycab site:
Did you buy this cable?Polycab Solar DC Cable
Specially engineered Polycab Solar DC Cable is flame retardant, and hydrolysis resistant. The cable connects electrical components with the solar panels.
Anytime you employ plastic near or touching speaker wires, in a wide band high-end quality audio system, you diminish the Fidelity. Read Pierre Sprey's report, from Mapleshade. Several good ideas are presented. RIP Pierre.
Jeff
Just read this thread for the first time. Cool stuff.
Everyone in this thread is describing cables ( copper bare stranded and tin plated stranded copper) in terms of what makes their entire audio system sound good to their ear.
Bare copper is not wide band.. and plays mostly midrange. Add tin, or better yet silver, to stranded copper, and you get a better high end, VS: bare copper stranded.
All F.M.s are doing in this thread, when choosing between these cable types, is matching the cable choice to the degree of mediocracy, that one's audio amplifier's design / build exhibits.
What happens for example, if we have a far better than typical audio amplifier powering the speaker??
I will tell you. You will easily hear the tin plated, or better yet, the silver plated copper, as being preferable !!!! If you have a superbly executed amp ( tube type, and only among the world's top 0.1% performing ) you will readily choose SILTEC brand pure stranded silver speaker wire, as being heavenly to hear - the very best sounding wire you have ever personally / directly experienced. OPEN up your wallets !!!
But unfortunately, in the real world, 99.99 % of the ( I can only address tube type ) available amplifiers I see people use, " will NOT cut the mustard - at all !!!! " Design mediocracy occurs in many many ways, and for a multitude of reasons.
What I am seeing people do in this thread, is choose the wire that " covers up " best, the ills of the quality of the audio amplifier's they are using !!! Generally, the worse the amp, the more the user will stay away from wider band ( tin or copper plated, or pure silver stranded or silver plated copper ).
Allow me to give you a few tangible examples.
1) How many of you, using a traditional capacitor-couples between two tube stages, would opt to employ an electrolytic coupling capacitor? Almost everyone may know - that is a sonic disaster to listen to, VS: using a carefully chosen, highest-quality film capacitor .
2) Now, let us all consider a typical tube stage where the tube's Cathode Resistor is bypassed, across the Cathode Resistor, to ground. How many of us see an electrolytic capacitor of some type...... being used in this critical spot???? We all can ! 99.999% percent of the amps I have seen, employ a electrolytic in this circuit position. GUESS WHAT, the Cathode Resistor's capacitor is in the audio circuit, just LIKE the coupling cap example between two tube stages.
Don't you think that will sound awful, compared to the BEST one can do - intelligently using high quality film caps across the Cathode Resistor?? Why of course.
You don't really want to hear that electrolytic continuously, when playing back your favorite music, do you?? Of course not. But you are !! It will sound inferior, suboptimal, for sure.
The answer being used by all in this thread, is not to demand a better amp design, but rather, cover up their amp's clueless design / execution, with some copper stranded narrow - band speaker wire, which will hide / mask their amp's unoptimized uses of capacitors.
Another example, how many amp / audio circuits use ONLY high quality all-Film or all-OIL type power supply capacitors, as part of their Supply's capacitance. I'd venture only about 1 in 100 does !!!
Who the heck wants to hear ratty sounding electrolytics? Not I !!
The typical answer / solution ??? Listen seriously, and employ stranded copper wire, which will play narrow band - the midband only. It will disguise the poor execution of the typical audio AMP ............when using crummy electrolytics, in the Power Supply.
The only amp I have ever seen with a published schematic, is the 1994 Sound Practices write up, by Marzio and Jelasi, of their DIY personal 2A3 Directly Coupled tube amps. I don't see a single electrolytic in their Parts List. Do you ?
' Bet they could use wide band silver content wire, and be happy with an amp that plays instruments well, up high. Don't you want to have an amp that can play all the highs well ?? And with full dynamic shading - and, on time ?? I do.
Jeff
PS, over the years, I have gotten kicked off of four USA audio Forums, solely for trying to discuss this, and how to go about getting higher amplifier performance than the norm. People get upset with me. I am getting older, time is short, and am tired of dumbing such things down in public audio discussions. Bear with me. I mean no harm to anyone. Thanks.
Everyone in this thread is describing cables ( copper bare stranded and tin plated stranded copper) in terms of what makes their entire audio system sound good to their ear.
Bare copper is not wide band.. and plays mostly midrange. Add tin, or better yet silver, to stranded copper, and you get a better high end, VS: bare copper stranded.
All F.M.s are doing in this thread, when choosing between these cable types, is matching the cable choice to the degree of mediocracy, that one's audio amplifier's design / build exhibits.
What happens for example, if we have a far better than typical audio amplifier powering the speaker??
I will tell you. You will easily hear the tin plated, or better yet, the silver plated copper, as being preferable !!!! If you have a superbly executed amp ( tube type, and only among the world's top 0.1% performing ) you will readily choose SILTEC brand pure stranded silver speaker wire, as being heavenly to hear - the very best sounding wire you have ever personally / directly experienced. OPEN up your wallets !!!
But unfortunately, in the real world, 99.99 % of the ( I can only address tube type ) available amplifiers I see people use, " will NOT cut the mustard - at all !!!! " Design mediocracy occurs in many many ways, and for a multitude of reasons.
What I am seeing people do in this thread, is choose the wire that " covers up " best, the ills of the quality of the audio amplifier's they are using !!! Generally, the worse the amp, the more the user will stay away from wider band ( tin or copper plated, or pure silver stranded or silver plated copper ).
Allow me to give you a few tangible examples.
1) How many of you, using a traditional capacitor-couples between two tube stages, would opt to employ an electrolytic coupling capacitor? Almost everyone may know - that is a sonic disaster to listen to, VS: using a carefully chosen, highest-quality film capacitor .
2) Now, let us all consider a typical tube stage where the tube's Cathode Resistor is bypassed, across the Cathode Resistor, to ground. How many of us see an electrolytic capacitor of some type...... being used in this critical spot???? We all can ! 99.999% percent of the amps I have seen, employ a electrolytic in this circuit position. GUESS WHAT, the Cathode Resistor's capacitor is in the audio circuit, just LIKE the coupling cap example between two tube stages.
Don't you think that will sound awful, compared to the BEST one can do - intelligently using high quality film caps across the Cathode Resistor?? Why of course.
You don't really want to hear that electrolytic continuously, when playing back your favorite music, do you?? Of course not. But you are !! It will sound inferior, suboptimal, for sure.
The answer being used by all in this thread, is not to demand a better amp design, but rather, cover up their amp's clueless design / execution, with some copper stranded narrow - band speaker wire, which will hide / mask their amp's unoptimized uses of capacitors.
Another example, how many amp / audio circuits use ONLY high quality all-Film or all-OIL type power supply capacitors, as part of their Supply's capacitance. I'd venture only about 1 in 100 does !!!
Who the heck wants to hear ratty sounding electrolytics? Not I !!
The typical answer / solution ??? Listen seriously, and employ stranded copper wire, which will play narrow band - the midband only. It will disguise the poor execution of the typical audio AMP ............when using crummy electrolytics, in the Power Supply.
The only amp I have ever seen with a published schematic, is the 1994 Sound Practices write up, by Marzio and Jelasi, of their DIY personal 2A3 Directly Coupled tube amps. I don't see a single electrolytic in their Parts List. Do you ?
' Bet they could use wide band silver content wire, and be happy with an amp that plays instruments well, up high. Don't you want to have an amp that can play all the highs well ?? And with full dynamic shading - and, on time ?? I do.
Jeff
PS, over the years, I have gotten kicked off of four USA audio Forums, solely for trying to discuss this, and how to go about getting higher amplifier performance than the norm. People get upset with me. I am getting older, time is short, and am tired of dumbing such things down in public audio discussions. Bear with me. I mean no harm to anyone. Thanks.
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Kitne tejasvi log hain hamare forum mainElectricity regardless of hf, lf or mf travel at the same speed (almost the speed of light). It can travel 7 times across the globe in a second. The only thing that changes with frequency is the wave length of the wave. Electrons however travel much much slower. They travel at what is known as the drift velocity and travel slower than even a snail. The drift velocity of electrons through a copper wire of cross-sectional area 3.00 x 10-6 m2, carrying a 10A current, is approximately 2.5 x 10-4 m/s, or one-fourth of a millimeter per second. If ever the electron reaches the speaker coil from the amplifier, it will be a miracle. But then how does electricity travel if electons are so slow? It travels like a wave. It is like standing in a long queue with no space between the people. The person at the end pushes, the effect of which will be felt almost immediately by the person at the front of the queue.
The speed at which the signal reaches the speaker is the signal velocity which is the same for hf, lf or mf. Once it reaches the coil, the movement of the coil moves the diaphragm and this produces sound. It's after this stage you may get a difference because no speaker is perfect. If you have multiple drivers, the distance of each driver from the ears, cabinet construction, acoustic lobing, reflection, etc will determine if all frequencies reach your ear at the same time or not. That's my understanding and the thing this different plating on the base conductor will do is attenuate the high frequencies differently (skin effect + electrical resistance of the plating).
However, different frequencies have different attenuation is explained here
Speed of light vs speed of electricity
If I arranged an experiment where light raced electricity what would be the results? Let's say a red laser is fired at the same time a switch is closed that applies 110 volts to a 12 gauge loop of ...physics.stackexchange.com
Imagine Usha Uthup singing with her deep throaty, manly low frequency voice and a person playing guiter, violin, cymbals. Another person playing the drums.
Imagine the havoc if the guitar, violin, cymbal sound reach you earlier, followed by Usha Uthup's voice and in the end the drum beats totally out of tune.
Even in air, sound HF, LF or MF travel at the same speed.
beautifully explained. Wish we had professors like you in college“ Lot of times when people talk about science, it may tread into the realm of vodoo, religion, mysticism and commonly held belief and may cause friction. It is also possible for people of science to reject something outright without any…….”
One may want to read that as
“Lot of times when people talk about Audio. It may/will tread into the realm of Voodoo, mysticism…..”. Sadly some do prey on gullible people and trusting souls.
One may want to read that as
“Lot of times when people talk about Audio. It may/will tread into the realm of Voodoo, mysticism…..”. Sadly some do prey on gullible people and trusting souls.
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