Speaker low frequency extension w/o sub-woofer

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Maybe not conventional audiophile speakers but how about devialet phantoms? Keeping the stereo performance like imaging and soundstage aside, they are tiny but cover full range down to 14hz according to specs! Even the Elac original debut bookshelves are known for their low end.

In my opinion, its just not the driver size or speaker size but also the speaker design, placement and room size also play a larger role in this.
 
@nn_in
The way I see it, there are 2 aspects to good bass.
1. What the speakers can do and what the room can reinforce (or mess up)
2. What is in the recording

It is fairly easy to assess the capability of the speakers in a given room.
If a given speaker is rated at say 50Hz (3dB) it means it will meaningfully reproduce anything a little above this frequency.
How good or bad is this depends on the speaker design, material, position, placement, equipment, etc.
Let's assume that the speakers are "good" and placement is "satisfactory" and chain is "decent".
Positive room gain is usually when the musical notes at boundary condition is given a bit of help to pressurize them room.
It can sometimes be too much of a good thing :) (including room modes)

Now, in studio recorded music, there is very little content that goes below 50 Hz (let alone below 40 Hz).
This is for music and it's associated instruments.
Many a time recording engineers would have EQ'ed it to a practical playback level (maybe even EQ'ed it out).
The real kicker comes when listening to live music, say an opera or rock concert or big band jazz/blues recorded in a closed auditorium.
Here the mic would have picked up what that concert hall adds to the LF of certain instruments.
If the recording engineer decides to keep this in the recording, then a 10/12" sub will bring it out subtly.
Regular 5/6/8" woofers can't play this at meaningful SPL. As @RRR said, laws of physics.

Cheers,
Raghu
 
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There is no law in physics that says that a 6.5 inch driver cannot move "lots" of air vs a 12 inch driver. While cone area is important EVERYTHING depends on piston excursion. If a particular 6.5 inch driver can move its piston sufficiently vs a competing 12 incher which cannot, to attain a certain SPL at a particular frequency the 6.5 incher wins vs the 12 incher. Unlikely case but just wanted to clear that up.
 
keith_correa said:
There is no law in physics that says that a 6.5 inch driver cannot move "lots" of air vs a 12 inch driver. While cone area is important EVERYTHING depends on piston excursion. If a particular 6.5 inch driver can move its piston sufficiently vs a competing 12 incher which cannot, to attain a certain SPL at a particular frequency the 6.5 incher wins vs the 12 incher. Unlikely case but just wanted to clear that up.
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This explains why a well designed 5/6.5midbass driver offers LF bass.However most of the time this comes at a higher price

JBL HDI-1600 looks interesting (40Hz LF )

Any idea how is the Revel hierarchy structured . Is Concerta the entry followed by Performa and then Salon?

raghupb said:
@nn_in
The way I see it, there are 2 aspects to good bass.
1. What the speakers can do and what the room can reinforce (or mess up)
2. What is in the recording

It is fairly easy to assess the capability of the speakers in a given room.
If a given speaker is rated at say 50Hz (3dB) it means it will meaningfully reproduce anything a little above this frequency.
How good or bad is this depends on the speaker design, material, position, placement, equipment, etc.
Let's assume that the speakers are "good" and placement is "satisfactory" and chain is "decent".
Positive room gain is usually when the musical notes at boundary condition is given a bit of help to pressurize them room.
It can sometimes be too much of a good thing :) (including room modes)

Now, in studio recorded music, there is very little content that goes below 50 Hz (let alone below 40 Hz).
This is for music and it's associated instruments.
Many a time recording engineers would have EQ'ed it to a practical playback level (maybe even EQ'ed it out).
The real kicker comes when listening to live music, say an opera or rock concert or big band jazz/blues recorded in a closed auditorium.
Here the mic would have picked up what that concert hall adds to the LF of certain instruments.
If the recording engineer decides to keep this in the recording, then a 10/12" sub will bring it out subtly.
Regular 5/6/8" woofers can't play this at meaningful SPL. As @RRR said, laws of physics.

Cheers,
Raghu
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To add to your inputs .Here is Peter Comeau explains that other than sensitivity the other parameters are not of that great value as it cant predict how the spkr will sound in the room
 
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nn_in said:
Any experience that folks can share for BS or FS that can go really low upto 30 -40Hz w/o needing a sub-woofer?
Reason for asking . Always specs dont tell the story. I would be eager to know do users "feel"the low freq that some of the higher end (1 Lac upwards ....i guess ) spkrs present. I do understand that it may not equal to a pair of standalone sub-woofers but which speakers almost get there?

From what i understand from reviews some spkr Dynaudio confidence series or equivalents do this low-freq extension well .Any Wharfedale ,Totem,Revel series can do this ?

This spkr under consideration is likely to be paired mainly with PMA 1600NE but sometimes with PMA 600NE ,RN 803 or Powernode2i.

Iam now using 11.2 ,Xavian Bonbonus ver2 ,Ophidian Minimos
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Hi nn_in

Please bear in mind that the deeper a speaker goes in bass. The more room modes it excites. In my case, my speakers were going to 23hz at -3db

And they were exciting the length, width and height mode as well. When I measured my room response, the frequency curve had enough steep peaks to put the Himalayas to shame :D

So I had to add DSP to tame it. That is why bookshelves are recommended in smaller rooms, not for lack of space. But because their limited low end reach will not be deep enough to start exciting room modes. So it is always wiser to go for bookshelves and then add a sub for the lower end. The sub will also excite the same room modes, but by altering the placement of the sub, you can find an optimal spot where the bass response at your seating position is smooth.

But you will still need some kind of DSP to time align the sub to the main speakers, if they are not equidistant from the listening position. Yes an additional box will be required. But I would still recommend this to going with full range speakers and then struggling to tame the bass.

alphacentury100 said:
get the JTR Noesis 215RT https://www.jtrspeakers.com/jtr-noesis-215rt
They can play at 108db down to 16hz. (For comparison, this speaker can play louder than a Rythmik FV25hp from 20hz).
The Coaxial Compression Driver used in these speakers cost more than $1000 each.

View attachment 50820
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Wow....I think I will love these speakers already :D
 
newlash09 said:
Hi nn_in

Please bear in mind that the deeper a speaker goes in bass. The more room modes it excites. In my case, my speakers were going to 23hz at -3db

And they were exciting the length, width and height mode as well. When I measured my room response, the frequency curve had enough steep peaks to put the Himalayas to shame :D

So I had to add DSP to tame it. That is why bookshelves are recommended in smaller rooms, not for lack of space. But because their limited low end reach will not be deep enough to start exciting room modes. So it is always wiser to go for bookshelves and then add a sub for the lower end. The sub will also excite the same room modes, but by altering the placement of the sub, you can find an optimal spot where the bass response at your seating position is smooth.

But you will still need some kind of DSP to time align the sub to the main speakers, if they are not equidistant from the listening position. Yes an additional box will be required. But I would still recommend this to going with full range speakers and then struggling to tame the bass.
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Great context and valid inputs.
 
The above specification shows Frequency Range.
You need to look at the Frequency Response.
 
nn_in said:
Guess i may need to consider FS/front,bottom ported if possible.Suggestions welcome.
At this time Lintons ,D300,11 Series are the closest to what's possible and with reasonable perf/price ratio. I do seem to prefer the Wharf presentation.
Dali 5,7 options.If iam unable to spot value buy or gems in midrange of brands ....then i may need to wait ,budget up and look into greater than 2lac range ie Dynaudio confidence,contour,special 40 range or equivalent.
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I like your clarity in thinking. You are able to process the info and opinions provided by FMs in your own context and reframe your next question accordingly.
 
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Appreciate any opinions you may have .
Many reviews mention something similar to this in spkr reviews "the singer is in the room, i can almost touch the singer, and the players/instrument's are placed in space and also clearly separated.
This assumes the upstream equipment is of suitable quality to deliver this experience.
calls out some of these .

The spkrs i use Wharf 11.2,Xavian with RN803,PMA600NE and DNP800NE ,mogami and audioquest spkr cables,Amazon basic ICs cables get me to a nice center stage and some separation. 11.2 at low volume listening is very satisfactory as the bass ,mid/bass is rendered well to my ears. Its entirely possible with this config the above soundstage is not a fair expectation. A fairly good and better amp PMA1600NE is on the way.

From user experience which spkrs /brand offer this ? Maybe is that the reason that L3/5A is popular . competitors in the top range of Dynaudio,Dali ,Revel,Wharf and others seem to offer the entire soundstage experience.

Just validating my thinking....

Option 1 : If i dont chase low-freq 30-40Hz delivery.The situation iam in as per my understanding to get closer to the ideal soundstage delivery .(Assume competant upstream equipement).Branded,high end models that also may be high priced .
1. BS/Standmounter : Go for L3/5A or designs inspired by LS3/5A . ( excludes clones )
2. BS/Standmounter : Go for higher end models in a brand ( Dali Menuet , Revel ,DBR 62 ( is a gem as per audiosciencereview .com ) and other equivalents)

Option 2 : If low-freq 40 Hz and below is a must
1. BS/Standmounter : Go and add two subs to BS/standmounters
2. FS speakers : Go for a proper 3ways that dont need a sub
 
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Do add Focals, Monitor Audio, KEF, to the list above.

@fLUX has 2 pairs of Focal Aria 926. That should count for something :)
@Nagaraj S has a pair of Monitor Audio (with 2x8" drivers)

KEF does really well in terms of centering, imaging and separation.
Their magic is between the speakers. Stage width is a bit smaller as compared to other brands (my opinion).
The only caveat with KEF is their house sound does not have universal appeal.
Also, I would suggest that you hear out Polk Audio Legend L200 at ProFx.

In terms of one or two subs, you may be able to get away with one unit in your listening space.
I have just one unit in a "odd L shaped" room. It works nicely out of a corner.

Hit the road and do some auditioning, even if it is in the dealer demo room.

Cheers,
Raghu
 
raghupb said:
Do add Focals, Monitor Audio, KEF, to the list above.

@fLUX has 2 pairs of Focal Aria 926. That should count for something :)
@Nagaraj S has a pair of Monitor Audio (with 2x8" drivers)

KEF does really well in terms of centering, imaging and separation.
Their magic is between the speakers. Stage width is a bit smaller as compared to other brands (my opinion).
The only caveat with KEF is their house sound does not have universal appeal.
Also, I would suggest that you hear out Polk Audio Legend L200 at ProFx.

In terms of one or two subs, you may be able to get away with one unit in your listening space.
I have just one unit in a "odd L shaped" room. It works nicely out of a corner.

Hit the road and do some auditioning, even if it is in the dealer demo room.

Cheers,
Raghu
Click to expand...


I just have a single pair of Focal Aria 926 @raghupb :) If budget is not a constraint the Focal Aria 936 would be a much better option since they supposedly dig deeper with more quantity than the 926, ratings specify bass down to 31 hz (at -6db) and 38hz (+/- 3db) .
 
This one will be an odd pick but TAGA Harmony 806F is rated to 30 hz, iirc. The tower is massive and holds two 8 inch woofers on each.
 
fLUX said:
I just have a single pair of Focal Aria 926 @raghupb :) If budget is not a constraint the Focal Aria 936 would be a much better option since they supposedly dig deeper with more quantity than the 926, ratings specify bass down to 31 hz (at -6db) and 38hz (+/- 3db) .
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Oh. My bad!!
I saw it 2 times in your sig and got confused. Then realized you are sharing this between HT and 2-ch :)
Cheers,
Raghu
 
I also have a doubt that the speaker manufacturer mentions the frequency range .But only very few.mentions about on-axis and off-axis response.
Also the lowest frequency claimed,there may be a loss based on your Main listening position.Only by measuring we can able to know what's the real values are.
 
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