Speakers , Which one, Yet Another

[dheerajin]

Hi

Managed to get to Home Cinema @ KPHB yesterday.

(I am usually driving against that returning from hi tech to nizampet traffic not with it. what a revelation I'm glad I'm going the other way every evening !)

They had a decent listening room - it is a home theater and possibly on the plusher side of things.

The bookshelfs they had were the PSB B6 (40K) and the B&W 686 (51K). The could demo the PSB.

It did not jump off and say "pick me, buy me"

They also played a class a tube amped (melody) + eggleston (?) rig. And I said to myself "so that's what the real deal is about". I had heard Jhini and Bhor so many times, but never that way.

That leaves only the B&W to audition elsewhere in the city (vector does not have it, HC@KPHB does not)

I know I am begining to sound like Shania Twain "That don't impress me much" and that I don't quite have the looks to pull that off.

next ? Chennai. maybe. Reading up all I can on Dimpled tweeters

ciao
gr

I dont know what went wrong with the system synergy that PSBs could not sing for you. Generally PSBs cant go wrong..anyway just to make you sure , there is an opportunity for you...our FM Nikhil from Hyderbad has put PSB T5 for sale..so it is convenient for you to take audition and ..again speakers within your budget..

cheers
Dheeraj

 

[sound_cycle]

I dont know what went wrong with the system synergy that PSBs could not sing for you. Generally PSBs cant go wrong

Hi

I was wondering about this when I was there

The room is home theater on the plush side of things

To my mind the speakers were placed too far apart and too high.

It is not like it sounded bad or not enjoyable. It is likely overexpectationbias (for which I have no one to blame) or having listened to less capable speakers for too long - ie I was the problem

I'm sure there will be other FM who will audition there and I will be clean bowled or caught out (I wanted to insert a sharapova joke there but I don't know what her sport is)

I saw that T5 in fs. The wife thinks it is too big

Thanks

ciao
gr

 

[ranjeetrain]

I think you should convince your wife

You have a good opportunity to own a very nice pair for a reasonable price. Much better to get this than something new at around 50k. 70-80k is where new speakers start to get interesting. The best thing is the T5 is in same city as yours. Why not PM the FM and see if you can go and hear it in a better tuned system. I am sure it would be better tuned than the dealer, who often don't have the luxury to play too much with placement etc.

Give it a shot I'd say.

 

[sound_cycle]

Hi

I used an anniversary and total lack of WFA for towers as a reason (heh heh) for selling my 2605 . Actually yeh dil mange more/ upgraditis.

She does not care as long as the replacement speakers are small and unobtrusive (I would love to have speakers that disappear ofc)

I agree with her at least in part because I feel my room (a tube 10.5 x 25 feet) is not big enough for an fs as I can't have them playing along the length of the room and therefore listening position is about ~ 8 ft from the speakers.

The reviews for the t5 are very interesting. As are the ones for the B6. I am planning a trip to Chennai EOM exclusively with speakers in mind and I will try and hear the B6 once again - hopefully in better listening circumstances.

To my mind the main contenders are the Dali z3, PSB b6, B7w 686 s2 (expensive !), Dali Ikon 2 Mk II and if I can audition it, the Qacoustics 2020i. So far the only thing I have decided is on the stands, nexus from magma, lol.

Meanwhile would be very interested in comparing notes with anyone who listens (or has) to the B6es at HC@KPHB.

ciao
gr

 

[elangoas]

When you are in Chennai, try to visit Decibel (Near Cenotaph road) and meet Mr Raghunathan... He deals with PSB & Q Acoustics... One of the very good listening rooms in Chennai...

Hope you have considered the fact that Image B6 are rear ported speakers & may need some space behind them.....

 

[sound_cycle]

Will visit decibel (mailed them). Thanks Elangoas.

At HC@KPHB the speakers must have had space at the back (did not note or check). I got the impression they were too far apart (I thought I did not note any hole in the soundstage though) and higher than ear level when I was seated in their plush sofa. Not to worry now since Decibel listening rooms in Chennai is good (and I am ***not*** saying that the one I visited in Hyd was bad)

ciao
gr

 

[mpw]

for a listening distance of 8 ft i would look at the Dali mentor menuet - very good looking - high WAF and excellent sound. Dont get fooled by its small form factor.

The Mentor is among the higher models of the Dali and you may consider the same.

Else you may look at excellent standmount options like the Amphion 41-0 / Ino / Ino+ etc..

you may have to stretch your budget but do hear these out as well..

YMMV !!

PS : all speakers need space around them to throw sound stage irrespective of their porting. That's the brutal truth.

mpw

 

[sound_cycle]

for a listening distance of 8 ft i would look at the Dali mentor menuet - very good looking - high WAF and excellent sound<snip>
you may have to stretch your budget but do hear these out as well..
<snip>
PS : all speakers need space around them to throw soundstage irrespective of their porting. Thats the brutal truth.

The menuets sadly @ ~ 900 that seems to be far out of reach, but will try and get a listen.

I know from my positioning experiments with the Sonodynes that I really need to get my room sorted out because apart from being a tube, the wall on the rhs is **much** closer than the one on the lhs, and the room is lively.

Meanwhile Mr Raghu at Decibel responded via email to say that they the 685 S2, Q Acoustics Concept 20, and the revel M12. and that all three are available for audition. Dali at Vipul Audio. That leaves the PSB for which I have to find a store.

ciao
gr

 

[elangoas]

PS : all speakers need space around them to throw soundstage irrespective of their porting. Thats the brutal truth. mpw

Agreed... But don't you think a front ported speaker requires less space/no space than a rear ported speaker from the rear wall ?

 

[kanna.sridharan]

Agreed... But don't you think a front ported speaker requires less space/no space than a rear ported speaker from the rear wall ?

I would disagree to this, being a front ported speaker does not mean they require less space from the rear wall. Moving any kind of speaker away from the walls, rear / side does create an impact.

I'm not an expert here but I've been breaking my head for the past 4 days just to get the best from my speakers and every night I alter the position of speakers there is differences in the output of which some are nice and some unpleasant. It's going to take me a long time to get my speakers singing the way I heard it at the demo hall.

Good luck on the hunt

 

[elangoas]

I would disagree to this, being a front ported speaker does not mean they require less space from the rear wall. Moving any kind of speaker away from the walls, rear / side does create an impact.

I'm not an expert here but I've been breaking my head for the past 4 days just to get the best from my speakers and every night I alter the position of speakers there is differences in the output of which some are nice and some unpleasant. It's going to take me a long time to get my speakers singing the way I heard it at the demo hall.

Good luck on the hunt

For a front ported speaker, distance from side walls matter, but rear wall am not too sure...

For a rear ported speaker, distance from side walls & rear wall also matter...

When there is no breathing required by a front ported speaker from the rear wall, how does it affect ?

I have used both front ported FS (Sonodyne Sonus 2605) & rear ported FS (Mission M35i) against the wall & a feet away from the rear wall... What i have observed is, rear ported benefit few feet away from the wall...Front ported FS remains unchanged (or) no noticeable difference....

 

[mpw]

I would disagree to this, being a front ported speaker does not mean they require less space from the rear wall. Moving any kind of speaker away from the walls, rear / side does create an impact.

kanna,

once you understand the reality ( which you have mentioned above ) then the choices become easier to make.

well said..

mpw

 

[mpw]

When there is no breathing required by a front ported speaker from the rear wall, how does it affect ?

elangoas,

you have used the speakers - correct - but the fact remains that porting makes a difference not just for the porting or bass effect but also for soundstage depth.

distance from the rear wall and side wall are very critical for all types of speakers.

You mentioned front ported - try sealed speakers - having no port by common assumption would mean they work best right up against a wall

( there is NO port you see !! )..

but guess where they work best ??

hearing good sound and hearing what the speaker is capable of are 2 different things.

regards
mpw

 

[sound_cycle]

For a front ported speaker, distance from side walls matter, but rear wall am not too sure...

For a rear ported speaker, distance from side walls & rear wall also matter...

Bass reinforcement (from the rear wall) will happen for front or back ported speakers.

The animation shows that higher frequencies are directional while lower frequencies radiate in all directions.

(from http://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/demos/baffledpiston/baffledpiston.html)

ciao
gr

 

[mpw]

The menuets sadly @ ~ 900 that seems to be far out of reach, but will try and get a listen.

I know from my positioning experiments with the Sonodynes that I really need to get my room sorted out because apart from being a tube, the wall on the rhs is **much** closer than the one on the lhs, and the room is lively.

Meanwhile Mr Raghu at Decibel responded via email to say that they the 685 S2, Q Acoustics Concept 20, and the revel M12. and that all three are available for audition. Dali at Vipul Audio. That leaves the PSB for which I have to find a store.

ciao
gr

==========================================

soundcycle,

the menuets in Mumbai are quoted at 80k for the pair - last i enquired a few months back. They might have a demo pair for less. If you like PM me and i will enquire.

Buying or not is a different matter - but please take your amp and listen to it.

The small form factor means they will blend into small spaces well.

mpw
===============================================

 

[elangoas]

elangoas,

you have used the speakers - correct - but the fact remains that porting makes a difference not just for the porting or bass effect but also for soundstage depth.

distance from the rear wall and side wall are very critical for all types of speakers.

You mentioned front ported - try sealed speakers - having no port by common assumption would mean they work best right up against a wall

( there is NO port you see !! )..

but guess where they work best ??

hearing good sound and hearing what the speaker is capable of are 2 different things.

regards
mpw

If all speakers demand some spacing behind them, then why are key hole mounts provide on front ported BS speakers...

Bass reinforcement (from the rear wall) will happen for front or back ported speakers.

The animation shows that higher frequencies are directional while lower frequencies radiate in all directions.

(from Radiation from a Baffled Piston)

ciao
gr

Going by the graph, wondering what would be the ideal placement for a speaker

 

[mpw]

elango,

speaker design and placement of speakers have to live with the compromises dictated by modern day decor.

Therein lies the answer.

you can try ths for your self - use the cardas speaker positioning rule for a start and work your way to the place where the speakers should best. You will see the reality.

The room is the biggest compromise of all.

If we use your logic then every speaker should be front ported na ?

rgds

 

[elangoas]

elango,

speaker design and placement of speakers have to live with the compromises dictated by modern day decor.

Therein lies the answer.

you can try ths for your self - use the cardas speaker positioning rule for a start and work your way to the place where the speakers should best. You will see the reality.

The room is the biggest compromise of all.

If we use your logic then every speaker should be front ported na ?

rgds

Ok.. I never knew what a Cardas speaker positioning is.. Thanks for the info...

Room Setup: Horizontal and Square Listening Rooms

This is my room shape... this is how i placed my speakers, very close to the position shown in diagram, but slightly deviating.....

The text next to the diagram also states that you can place the speaker anywhere on the dotted lines.... I had put my speakers close to the wall like 20cm distance...Does this make ideal placement ?

No i wasn't trying to state by logic that all speakers have to be front ported.... Someone who have the luxury of space behind a speakers can opt for a rear ported speaker....

 

[sound_cycle]

This is my room shape... this is how i placed my speakers, very close to the position shown in diagram, but slightly deviating.....
<snip>Someone who have the luxury of space behind a speakers can opt for a rear ported speaker....

With this method the proportions are all important. and the slightly deviating is not permissible. Take a look at these

Golden Section Calculator
The Vinyl Tourist



http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/speakerplacement.html
With regards to soundstaging, you'll find that depth is dramatically influenced by rear wall proximity. Increasing the distance from the speaker to the wall behind will increase soundstage depth. However, pulling the speaker too far out may degrade focus. In most cases, room layout dictates the maximum distance the speakers will be allowed to intrude into the space, but experiment to as a great degree as possible.

 

[rajagopal_j]

Moving any kind of speaker away from the walls, rear / side does create an impact.

How much impact is what will differ between a front and rear ported speaker. Front ported speaker will not boom when you put it next to the rear wall, but will have acoustic loading (bass will increase), whereas a rear ported speaker along with acoustic loading will boom as the compressed air exiting the bass ported will hit the wall with force causing it to boom at a specific frequency.

I'm not an expert here but I've been breaking my head for the past 4 days just to get the best from my speakers and every night I alter the position of speakers there is differences in the output of which some are nice and some unpleasant. It's going to take me a long time to get my speakers singing the way I heard it at the demo hall.

Placing your speakers need not be that much of a pain, but fine tuning them will be.

In my experience the best process I have found for this is,

Step1
Cardas Room Setup Guide
Use the cardas golden ration measurement and place your speaker.
This would invariably get you there 80%.
That being said, you might not have the luxury of having the speakers 5 - 6 ft away from the wall, in which case put them as close to the measured point as possible.

Step 2
Move your speakers a little back and a little forward, and to the sides make a note of which position sounds best. You will have to do this to both channels symmetric to your listening position.

Step 3
Turn the speakers, slightly inwards so that if you draw straight line from the tweeters, they should cross about a feet before your listening position.

This should get you about 90 - 95% there.

You will have to live with the rest, or acoustically treat your room.

Please remember this is just a rule of thumb/best practice/suggested process. There are a lot many more things which affect the sound and various other placement practices on the net.

Keep trying different placement till you find the sweet spot.