Sub for KEF LS 50

[Ashenden]

If your budget permits and the amp is still available you can check out this sale listing for Parasound halo integrated amp

SOLD - Parasound Halo Integrated amplifier

Putting up for sale my Parasound Integrated amplifier which I had purchased a year back from a dealer in US and hand carried it. The amp is switchable between 110v and 230v and works directly with India voltage. I have upgraded my speakers along with a matching amp, hence selling this. It has...

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[arj]

You said it bro....the integration....that's not as simple as you put it. It is truly a big headache. As I mentioned in an other post, the sub woofer speaker alignment keeps on changing according to the type of music played. I believe adding a sub to a dedicated bookshelf is corrupting the speaker/music, like adding an equalizer between a source-amplifier-speaker. Amplifier speaker matching is the key. Also placement of speakers. If this is done properly, bookshelf speakers do not need sub. After all bass is not everything in music. Its good for parties, but dedicated listening.......its different. I have read lot of articles by well known audiophiles. Nowhere it is mentioned about adding sub woofer. Ok, I agree, all this is based on personal taste. But on the long run, you would want to turn that sub off. I can say this because....I was just like this long back. Bass crazy. That time I believed a speaker with no bass is a bad speaker.

Agree on the amplifier matching but you could not be more wrong on a Sub, but it has to be a good sub. Subs like MJ Acoustic, REL the old Linn Isobarics, Rhtyhmic etc put out quality Bass although not much in quantity

I do not want to confuse Rajush more and hence it could be a different discussion but you do not know what you are missing out on without Bass. I do not mean the thump but that articulation eg of the double bass, the low end feel of a bass guitar or the feel of the skin of a kettle drum. There are so many sub 30Hz cues in music ( mostly western) that once you hear it you cannot like the same music again without it.

The Sub is not just about the bass though,vocals are also better with subs especially the quallity of male vocals. You can of course argue saying the minimum freq of each instrument is in the 50-75 range and vocals not below 150Hz, but for that please look up sub harmonics and harmonics and how it contributes to the Timbre and Tone of sound.

That why full ranger speakers make such a difference and since full rangers are not chap , the next best option is a Sub.

Setting up a Sub is not easy but neither is it so tough to get it to about 80% of the sound and it should always be looked up as a Bass augmenter for the speaker instead of a Bass Blaster ! Problem with Subs is most people set it up Wrong with too high a crossover and very often the wrong position and hence the wrong impression.

The right principle for a is Sub is when you set it up right , should not be heard when it is on, but you miss is when it is off. But a good Sub does not come cheap !

 

[liverpool_for_life]

As a matter of fact, no speaker manufacturer mentions adding sub woofers to their bookshelf speakers for better performance.

That doesn't make it untrue though, does it? The science and anecdotal experiences both support the theory that sub woofers make a clearly audible difference when added to a limited-range or a full-range system.

I suspect you haven't heard a well-integrated setup. I once heard an OB setup with a sub paired. It was so well integrated I didn't even know the sub was playing.

 

[liverpool_for_life]

So whats the point in buying a 1 lakh plus bookshelf speaker when you have to shred another fortune on a sub woofer to the get it sound right????

We aren't talking about right, we are talking about better. (Assuming, of course, that you are playing music with lower octave content to begin with)

And, if properly integrated, it will be better. The science suggests that it has to be and the anecdotal evidence suggests that it indeed does.

 

[arj]

Kef is a highly reputed speaker manufacturer and LS 50 is supposed to be one of their prestige product. Nowhere, it is mentioned in any article them, on adding a sub. As a matter of fact, no speaker manufacturer mentions adding sub woofers to their bookshelf speakers for better performance. As I mentioned before, no audiophiles mentions sub woofers in their discussions for two channel music. What I understand by reading the comments here in this thread.........I am in a discussion with a group who are in a different school of thought. Any ways, enjoy your music the way it pleases you.

Folks like Jim smith, Jeff day all use twin subwoofers with Full range speakers so not sure you can generalize saying no audiophile. There are people here in this forum who have that experience as well.

There are lots of discussions on Audiogon and Audio asylum which talk about why and how a sub can make a music experience better. I would have loved to retain my dual RELs but with 2 large tannoy speakers was very difficult to keep 2 subs in a room

As @liverpool_for_life mentions above, once you hear it you may change your opinion. do read up on harmonics/subharmonics and how they are important for the timbre of sound.

 

[Ashenden]

This is Steve Guttenberg's opinion (not mine )

 

[LobsterB]

Friends , all the info is overwhelming.
Thanks .
Will be home with the KEF's by this month end .
First will try them out .
Then will decide on the sub.
But pls give me options for sub in 25k available in India.
And a good Amp, new/used also available in India suitable for the KEF's.

I guess enough has been told already, but still would like to share my experience as I was in a similar state previously. Initially I also tried my LS50s with a Yamaha RX-V671 and was disappointed. Later tried with a Marantz 6012 AVR and was lot happier. But it sounded even better when connected to a dedicated power amplifier (Crown XLS1502) that didn't cost that much. I do have a Rythmik L12 subwoofer connected, but still for most music (including Electronic/Trance) I just turn it off...

 

[arj]

This is Steve Guttenberg's opinion (not mine )

This hobby is such that you can get lot of opinions. what most of us learn with time is our own experiences .

Eg Steve Gutenberg also says that Active Speakers have problems , Analogue is fun while digital is Stiff etc etc. Personally dont follow him much although he gives out good info on entry level gear,

There are videos on you tube which also how how the midrange improves with subwoofers.

Sub or no sub is a choice and fine to live with . In fact I myself was recommending the OP not to use one as it costs $$ to get a good one as its better to have no sub than one which is not doing its job well.

But if the overarching opinion is that subs ruin music then that's simply wrong and misinformation. if you had heard it sound bad, its because its setup wrong or the sub is not good enough.

 

[Ashenden]

Personally dont follow him much although he gives out good info on entry level gear,

Yes, I follow him for exactly that. I'm more interested in entry level gear that sounds good. Most reviewers are obsessed with expensive goodies

 

[raghupb]

Friends , all the info is overwhelming.
Thanks .
Will be home with the KEF's by this month end .
First will try them out .
Then will decide on the sub.
But pls give me options for sub in 25k available in India.
And a good Amp, new/used also available in India suitable for the KEF's.

Prudent decision. Try out the new acquisition with your existing setup.
Then decide which way to go.
Be mentally prepared to look at all aspects of the system (electronics &room for HT and 2-Ch).
There is no one answer that will solve everything.
Cheers,
Raghu

 

[arj]

Yes, I follow him for exactly that. I'm more interested in entry level gear that sounds good. Most reviewers are obsessed with expensive goodies

he is a good guy since he has got a lot of folks in audio especially due to his writings in CNET. if he is talking about entry level he is right as most subs there do only a thump..hence better fit for HT but a non fit for Audio.
But not true across the spectrum as even some of the old classics like the celestion 600/600 which still give modern speakers a run for their money were based on subwoofer/bookshelves

As I said earlier you are better of without a sub than a not so great sub, but if the sub is good and placed well at the right Position, Crossover and Gain it can do a fantastic job. I have actually done this and there have been several folks in this forum who have heard it with and without the sub but that was more than 5 years ago,.

 

[insane79]

I know. I have used 2 subs (RELs) with bookshelves till i moved to an extended range floorstander.
The point is sub is not a priority as the KEFs have a sufficient bass for most music and sub is not necessary..unlike any other satellite speaker.

I would feel that a dedicated stereo amp would give better quality bass that a sub and money would be better spent there rather than Sub.

It depends what music you listen to, for some types its always better to have more bass which means having a subwoofer in your setup.

REL subwoofers are awesome, i m buying another one to make the room bass balanced.

I love subwoofers & would add them to Full range towers too as they are mean't for low frequencies & only super high end towers don't need a sub i feel.

Even a Full Range Tower speaker with a 8" subwoofer built in, will never sound better then a 8" standalone subwoofer. Give this a try & hear it for your self.

Integration is the Key though.


Cheers.

 

[arj]

It depends what music you listen to, for some types its always better to have more bass which means having a subwoofer in your setup.

..

What i learnt and then experienced myself, the right way for a sub is not More Bass but Better bass

If you have heard Livingston Tylers "Grandmas Hands", you would know its an acapella ie no instruments, but with a Good sub or a decent Floorstander you can also hear a thump which comes due to him hitting his foot on a wooden box he is sitting on. This is part of the music and most bookshelves and some FS will not even let you hear it. but with a good sub you hear the rhythm

My favourite example is Eric Clapton "Unplugged" where most songs have a drum at around 25 hz (I have measured this) and this goes missing very often in systems and once you hear it you cannot hear the song without it.

In both of the above, its not about the thump impact, but the quality and texture of the same which makes is part of the music.

 

[superczar]

So whats the point in buying a 1 lakh plus bookshelf speaker when you have to shred another fortune on a sub woofer to the get it sound right????
Doesn't make sense.

There are plenty of 2000/- speakers that will go down to as low as 30hz vs the say 50 that the LS50 will do.. Doesn't make the former better.
There is a lot of misconception about stereo setups and subs and bookshelves.

Lets say you have 3 systems
A- Floorstanders capable of going down to as low as 30hz coupled straight with a stereo amp
B- Similar make Bookshelves that go to say 50 hz coupled with a stereo amp along with a decent sub that goes down to say 22
C- Same bookshelves as B but no sub

In a perfect world, B>A>C
The problem is that it is extremely (and I really mean it) difficult to get the crossovers, placements and levels to a point where B actually gets better than A
More often than not, (in the real world), A >C>B
And that is because there will be frequency overlaps , standing wave interferences and level mismatch between the sub and the low range driver on the bookshelf

Is it possible to get the balance right - yes, but you need to do a lot of work to get it right
Most people try to do it the old fashioned way i.e. play a few tracks and experiment with the settings - almost a certain recipe for failure other than for very few and hence the prevalent belief that subs make stereo setups worse

 

[ONEMANARMY]

You would be doing great injustice to the LS50s by not adding a subwoofer.

My desktops go down to 45hrtz and I'm using two subwoofers.
One was good but two are even better.
If I turn the subs off, the music sounds thin and lifeless.
It wasn't too difficult to get the balance right and just gave the speakers more weight and good meat on the bones, so to say.

Pimpri is not far from Mumbai so if you want you could swing by and I could lend you one.
Try for yourself and then decide.

 

[superczar]

From what you said, you need not waste big bucks for a bookshelf if you intend to connect a sub. Here the case is an LS 50 which costs a fortune already. A sub on top of that......man, how much are you going to spend for music. I mean the amount paid for LS 50 is wasted. And what you said about the difficulty in getting the placement, cross overs and levels correct, that was what I was saying all the time in my previous posts in this thread. Most of us do not have dedicated treated rooms for music. If you are fortunate to have that, there is room for those tiresome experiments. Others, getting it right is a herculean task, mostly will end up a failure.

You probably misread what I said.
No one will buy a LS50 for its sofa shaking ability.. period...

People buy good bookshelves for accurate reproduction of midrange and high
And also since the aforementioned tend to be directional, good bookshelves can recreate a wide and precise soundstage.

Because of inherent physical limitations, a bookshelf however cannot go into anything less than 40-50 hz with ease.
Thus one can either

- leave it as is ( convenient)
- Choose 3 way floorstanders (expensive)
- add a sub ( difficult to get right)


I have mentioned this earlier in the same thread... I cannot get subwoofer balance right by my ears/hand
My solution relied on not using a sub in one setup, anthem room correction in another and audyssey xt32 in another.
If one is so inclined though, they can accomplish similar results by hand tuning and placement or by using free tools like REW to get it right

 

[arj]

You would be doing great injustice to the LS50s by not adding a subwoofer.

My desktops go down to 45hrtz and I'm using two subwoofers.
One was good but two are even better.
If I turn the subs off, the music sounds thin and lifeless.
It wasn't too difficult to get the balance right and just gave the speakers more weight and good meat on the bones, so to say.

Pimpri is not far from Mumbai so if you want you could swing by and I could lend you one.
Try for yourself and then decide.

Interesting..Whats Subs do you use ?

 

[RAJUSH26]

You would be doing great injustice to the LS50s by not adding a subwoofer.

My desktops go down to 45hrtz and I'm using two subwoofers.
One was good but two are even better.
If I turn the subs off, the music sounds thin and lifeless.
It wasn't too difficult to get the balance right and just gave the speakers more weight and good meat on the bones, so to say.

Pimpri is not far from Mumbai so if you want you could swing by and I could lend you one.
Try for yourself and then decide.

Thanks a lot man, I m fm Pune..

 

[ajuvignesh]

With a fantastic speakers like ls50, If I were you, I would do the following things step by step.

- make the room acoustically ready for the speaker.
- add a good stereo amp
- add dual sub woofers only if I’m not pleased with the bass output of the bookshelves.

You see, the co axial driver in this is noted for its razer sharp phantom center and accurate imaging. Not to mention about its soundstage, tonal accuracy and the overall quality of music it can produce. Lots and lots of engineering has gone in to it and only an acoustically treated room will do justice for this masterpiece. Please spend a minimum of 10k for acoustics and it will make a huge difference. Add an amp later and there will be a very good difference too.

Go for a subwoofer only if you feel it is needed and it requires time to find out. If you’re going to buy a sub, buy something like rel, rhythmic, svs which are very musical. The budget sub I can think of going by the reviews is yamaha sw300. I used to work with old genelec monitors. The bass of those wasn’t that deep but very very satisfying. So, subwoofer is just a personal preference.

All the best.

 

[liverpool_for_life]

If I turn the subs off, the music sounds thin and lifeless.
It wasn't too difficult to get the balance right and just gave the speakers more weight and good meat on the bones, so to say.

You don't know what you're missing until you've got it