Sub frowned upon for music set up?

[Vandal]

I've been reading older threads here, and for a bookshelf setup for music, it seems a lot of people frown on a subwoofer.

I'd like to know why this is so. I know that most subwoofers do tend to sound lose, providing flabby bass that is boomy without extending low, and thereby lacking sonic punch.

That being said, isn't the lower frequency range an integral part of the music? If I were looking at a set of KEF iQ30's for a music setup and later on, I was looking for a Polk DSW Pro 600 to add to it, would I be doing injustice to my music?

So, if one were to want good, tight bass as well, for a bookshelf set up, is there no way out? In such cases, is a floorstander setup the only option?

Am I correct in assuming that, given a similar price/performance range, a set of bookshelves will give better mids and highs than floorstanders?

Thanks!

 

[arj]

Its a controversial topic and a complicated answer
But the simplistic generic answer is
1. a bookshelf is more cost effective midrange and up
2. a floorstander in the same cost range as the above would have a compromise..but if can get one to do the whole thing then it is the best option
3. For True flat 25 hz-50 hz, subwoofers will not be cheap but a single sub might be more cost efective than aFullrange speaker doing the same (5x times the cost)
4. Integeration of a sub (ideally a pair) is not easy amd can take a long time..but if you do it right it is very well worth it.
5. Finally a sub is not about providing the Punch but able to Extend the frequency of the main speaker as seamlessly as possible..and articulate the information in the same way.

on of the biggest mistakes people make with a sub is to punch it up.. ideally its delicate balance such that a sub should not be heard when on.. but really missed if it is off

 

[thevortex]

It all depends on the quantity and quality of bass that you prefer, Vandal.

I have heard the Polk DSW Pro and did not think it was a very musical subwoofer. It is leagues ahead of the entry level Polk subwoofer though. Integrating a subwoofer with your main speakers is a very tricky challenge indeed. I underestimated it greatly and put in a lot of time to try and optimize. Even then, I have come to like my music without the subwoofer.

To repeat what I said earlier, it is largely a function of what kind of music you like and what kind of bass you prefer in your music. If accuracy in bass is more important to you than quantity then a subwoofer - at least in the less than Rs. 50,000 range may not satisfy.

 

[iaudio]

Vandal, I guess its because most mass market subs are not fast enough for music. After listening to Suri's TL sub, I am a fan though! It does exactly what Arj has so beautifully put in words in post#2.
But again there are non TL subs which are quite fast, but I am too much of a noob to know anything about those.

 

[GeorgeO]

I dont know where you got the idea that a sub is frowned upon. IMHO, a sub is a critical added dimension to music.

 

[Vandal]

Its a controversial topic and a complicated answer
But the simplistic generic answer is
1. a bookshelf is more cost effective midrange and up
2. a floorstander in the same cost range as the above would have a compromise..but if can get one to do the whole thing then it is the best option
3. For True flat 25 hz-50 hz, subwoofers will not be cheap but a single sub might be more cost efective than aFullrange speaker doing the same (5x times the cost)
4. Integeration of a sub (ideally a pair) is not easy amd can take a long time..but if you do it right it is very well worth it.
5. Finally a sub is not about providing the Punch but able to Extend the frequency of the main speaker as seamlessly as possible..and articulate the information in the same way.

on of the biggest mistakes people make with a sub is to punch it up.. ideally its delicate balance such that a sub should not be heard when on.. but really missed if it is off

Hi Arj,
and thanks. You've put most of my feelings into words - I don't believe that I would ever want bass over the midrange and highs, just to integrate well, so that I don't feel that anything's missing. I'm definitely not a basshead and I like my music articulate with details, but I know I wouldn't like my sound without bass.

Still as you say, integration is tricky (whew! don't I know it). It's been a month since I saved up some 60~70K, and I'm not looking for a sub just yet, only the bookshelves and amp - and I am still terrible confused. It's just that I don't want to buy something, only to later discover it doesn't synergise well with some really good, new stuff that I might add later.

thevortex - thanks. Yes, a friend who was advising told me I'd have to spend big for a good music sub, but if I were on a budget, the Pro 600 would be my best bet. That being said, if I were to spend a little more than 30K on a sub, for music, what would you recommend I audition?

Fortunately, I can audition the set up at ProFX, simply because they do KEF, Denon and Polk. However, I'm in no hurry to spend, I'd rather read up, audition more, and make a really informed decision.

I've already been pointed in the right direction on this forum with regards a source, and am thrilled that slowly, the cobwebs are clearing.

Thanks!

 

[moktan]

though this may not be relevant to the discussion here...lower frequencies mean bass modes and hence unless the room has been treated to minimize them, it could be an issue to the discerning listener..so apart from choice of music, cost, integration issues, i would also factor in the room as well when considering the subwoofer..

 

[suri]

though this may not be relevant to the discussion here...lower frequencies mean bass modes and hence unless the room has been treated to minimize them, it could be an issue to the discerning listener..so apart from choice of music, cost, integration issues, i would also factor in the room as well when considering the subwoofer..

but moktan -

that is so real - the room is 60% - insofar as the subwoofer / sub-bass module is concerned.

in fact, the correct term for such apparatus should be -

" ROOM COUPLER"

regds
suri

 

[arj]

but moktan -

that is so real - the room is 60% - insofar as the subwoofer / sub-bass module is concerned.

in fact, the correct term for such apparatus should be -

" ROOM COUPLER"

regds
suri

Very well put :clapping:

 

[venkatcr]

I have explained this before many times. Look at this chart.

Leaving aside the Tuba, Contrabassoon, Harp, and the Pipe Organ, there is not a single musical instrument that goes below 50Hz. So why do you need a sub woofer at all? By routing your music through a sub, you are artificially enhancing the low frequencies. If you like doing that, that is fine. But it is not the natural sound as envisaged by the artists or the recording engineer.

Cheers

 

[suri]

So why do you need a sub woofer at all?

hi venkat,
A.R. Rahman - norah jones -ajay124's choice of music (beethoven and the grand (church) organ)

that is when that subwoofer is needed (and missed)

regds
suri

 

[alcy]

Suri sir, I can't tell when you are being sarcastic/funny or being serious !

But seriously, AR Rahman ? All he does is have fun with synths. And more synths. Nothing organic. Oh wait, that probably explains it.

 

[corElement]

I have the polk audio dsw pro 500 paired with jamo e-875 fronts.

From what ive noticed ( and like ) is before I got the sub I didnt know I was missing out on many lower frequencies. Now with a sub, it gets sent to the sub and I can hear+feel them.

Many will say youre not supposed t hear lower freqs. Fine..but whatever I am hearing.. I'm liking..so end of that controversy for me.

However, if I did indeed not want a sub, id be looking at the following

Floorstander with

dedicated high and super highs say
3000hz-14k
14k-22k

dedicated mid range
700-3000hz

dedicated midbass
200-700hz

dedcated woofer
20-200

But since this is not a common design, commonly available is

dedicated high 3500-20,000hz
dedicated med 500-3500hz
dedicated woofer 30-500hz

 

[arj]

I have explained this before many times. Look at this chart.

Leaving aside the Tuba, Contrabassoon, Harp, and the Pipe Organ, there is not a single musical instrument that goes below 50Hz. So why do you need a sub woofer at all? By routing your music through a sub, you are artificially enhancing the low frequencies. If you like doing that, that is fine. But it is not the natural sound as envisaged by the artists or the recording engineer.

Cheers

I have a Behringer DEQx 2496. i had bought it for Room correction in the digital domain but never got down to doing it. what it does have is an excellent Freq Display.
i have it on parallel via a digital out from my transport and am surprised at the recordings which have info in the 25-45 hz region which include sedate sounding Jazz vocals.(even Miles Davis :Kind of Blue ! )

most of the above contain info like foot taps, double bass, kick drums etc and also the tactile feeling of Bass which is so critical

I personally can live with a rolled off high..but not with the low missing

 

[thevortex]

So far, apart from super expensive subwoofers, the only budget subwoofer that I have listened to and liked is the EPOS ELS.

Please audition and compare with the Polk DSW Pro to see which one you like. I would definitely prefer the latter for movies and former for music.

 

[suri]

Suri sir, I can't tell when you are being sarcastic/funny or being serious !

But seriously, AR Rahman ? All he does is have fun with synths. And more synths. Nothing organic. Oh wait, that probably explains it.

Hi alcy,

seriously -

there is always a lot of sub-bass content in AR Rahman's mixes -

and since, today, quite a bit of popular music is produced with electronic support -

a dedicated bass/sub-bass unit is a must in a stereo music system -

and (easily) the best system (stereo two channel) , IMO, would be a pair of two-way floor-standers and a separate (fast -with ability to match the speed of the main cones) sub-woofer -

why separate sub-woofer?

because if the bass/sub-bass unit is co-located with the mid-bass and tweeter (e.g., a three-way floorstander), it becomes very difficult to place the speakers correctly in the room - and, invariably, if the speakers are positioned for vocals, all the wrong bass excitation (of the room) occurs-

and the entire magic of the listening experience is lost -

far better to create magic with a two-way floor stander - and correctly position a (huge TL) subwoofer in the room in a way that it does not interfere with the main content of the music.

also - refer to arj's post (just above) re the behringer. - ("most of the above contain info like foot taps, double bass, kick drums etc and also the tactile feeling of Bass which is so critical" - and this is part of the whole experience - without which - no magic!)


regds
suri

 

[GeorgeO]

+ 1. IMHO those who dont know about subs need their heads examined :yahoo:

I cannot agree with Venkat on this.

Not only AR Rehman's theme from Bombay, or contemporary electronic music but also any jazz music that has a bass guitar, jazz that has organ/keyboard, but a lot of female vocal has fairly good bass accompanying the vocals, which should be heard.

Victor Wooton, the bassist who plays with Bela Fleck (he performed in India recently) cannot be enjoyed listening with a small set of 2 ways.

 

[venkatcr]

i have it on parallel via a digital out from my transport and am surprised at the recordings which have info in the 25-45 hz region which include sedate sounding Jazz vocals.(even Miles Davis :Kind of Blue ! )

most of the above contain info like foot taps, double bass, kick drums etc and also the tactile feeling of Bass which is so critical

In its original form, a human voice cannot go down below 100Hz. So what you are hearing and seeing is artificially created by the recording engineer. But that is neither here nor there.

As Suri said, and in my opinion, a good bookshelf, or preferably a full range floor standing speakers with 8 inch woofers are the best. Today's 5.5 inch woofer also perform quite well.

Cheers

 

[arj]

In its original form, a human voice cannot go down below 100Hz. So what you are hearing and seeing is artificially created by the recording engineer. But that is neither here nor there.


Cheers

venkat, its not about the vocals but the accompanyments that go with the music. eg Keith Jarred Koln Concert.. he plays a beautiful piano but then there are his excalamations/sighs, foot tapping and a subtle double bass which goes low which just adds to the music a lot more.

even in the caseof Bass guitars..these days i believe they us 5 string guitars which go down to the 35's

Another example quoted in some of the posts in Livingston Taylors "grandmas hands" can sound very bland on most systems. but put it in a full ranger or with subs and the music just gets Enhanced to a different level.

I too was of the same opinion based on that info on the net..but now i feel there is a lot more info which goes beyond. and now when i actually see it (since the equaliser is showinf me the digital out..there is no room impact etc)

Eg even with double Bass hearing it and Feeling it are 2 different things..ie if you can feel the air getting pressurised, it enhances the experience multifold !

and finally, for me, personally, if the recording engineedr has created it then i want to hear it !. what i dont want is the system adding and subtracting too much .

 

[psychotropic]

a good sub does not accentuate anything, it will merely reproduce the low frequency information that is there on the recording. And if the musicians wanted those sounds to be recorded, then I think you're perfectly justified in wanting to hear them, whether or not they come from natural instruments or synthesisers or percussion or pipe organ.

Here's a question for the experts. Even if the fundamental of a kick drum strike or a note on a piano is X hertz, let's say 50hz is it (or is it not) possible that the harmonics of that note would extend above and (more critically) below the fundamental frequency?

I say this because to my unscientific ears it sounds like it ought to be the case, because the same notes that i am hearing on my lovely and detailed Usher S520 (rated to go down to 52 hz) sound more filled out and textured on the Mini dancer (rated to go down to 38 hz), and my suspicion was that even though perhaps the S520 gets the fundamental of the note right, and some amount of the harmonics, you need a driver/drivers with a broad enough frequency response to reproduce the fullest possible range of the harmonics of a particular note.

Is this the case? or am i mixing up concepts?