Sub frowned upon for music set up?

[sonosphere]

Hi Vandal,
Don't have personal experience here, however I had read somewhere on this forum that:
.... Wharfedale SW 150 (@20k approx) & 250 are suitable for music. They may not be in the same league as Velodyne or REL, but at that price point they are expected to be good for music. The other subs at 20k are more designed for thunder FX than music.

You may search forum for more details. Hope this helps.
Regds,

So, if I were to ask the experts here, what would be the best subwoofers for a price of not more than 50K, what would the answers be?
Polk's DSW 500 and 600 Pro are already on my sampling list. Any others?

 

[arj]

I would recommend you to try Bkelec . and buy direct

I have their gemini model and can vouch for it.

they are OEMs to MJ acoustics and used to be for REL as well and use the same philosophy... extremely Vfm for their price.

 

[ajay124]

@suri
I happen to be listening to Bach's organ music at the moment and on the VA's it sounding so good that I keep postponing switching off the system.When I find myself nodding off I have a glass of ice cold water and carry on ....
But I will accept your point that a sub could improve the experience.So....
Which Amp?
Which Sub ?
How do I hook it up?

 

[suri]

@suri
I happen to be listening to Bach's organ music at the moment and on the VA's it sounding so good that I keep postponing switching off the system.When I find myself nodding off I have a glass of ice cold water and carry on ....
But I will accept your point that a sub could improve the experience.So....
Which Amp?
Which Sub ?
How do I hook it up?

this one is not so bad - i have listened to one of these in a system -

Rythmik Audio F12SE Subwoofer These guys are indeed on to something. Review By Clarke Robinson

JL audio subwoofers are supposed to be better-

hooking up is easy -

run RCA subwoofer (shielded) cables from the pre-amp out of your amplifier to the line-in of the plate amp of the subwoofer-

after locating the subwoofer correctly - adjustments (on the plate amp) allow for best integration.

regds
suri

 

[thevortex]

If someone frowns upon a sub for music, that someone probably heard a poorly constructed and/or poorly selected and/or poorly placed sub.

And you know what - that pretty much rules out most of the mid range subwoofers in the market

 

[venkatcr]

And you know what - that pretty much rules out most of the mid range subwoofers in the market

Including the Hsu VTF2? Over the next few weeks I shall listen to the specific instruments that go below 50Hz and see how they sound on the Hsu and on the Fostex drivers.

Cheers

 

[thevortex]

Including the Hsu VTF2? Over the next few weeks I shall listen to the specific instruments that go below 50Hz and see how they sound on the Hsu and on the Fostex drivers.

Cheers

I said most; not all, Venkat

I am yet to hear your Hsu subwoofer. You know that I hold the EPOS sub in reasonably good light as far as being musical is concerned. But I have not seen too much competition from other subs on this front. I would only be happy if there are more options around.

 

[iaudio]

Bala, How much does the Epos Els sub cost?

 

[square_wave]

A large bookshelf speaker which is rated to 50hz is specified at -3 or -6db. That means that it cannot do bass which has strong fundamentals at 50hz. It will roll of most of the meat in the bass at these regions.

A speaker like that cannot be termed as full range ! There is lot of bass information below what a bookshelf speaker can do. But good bass is expensive. A room to do it effectively is even more expensive.

If one cannot afford either of them, a bookshelf speaker with 50hz +-3db is good enough.

A good bookshelf speaker which can do 50hz effectively is also very expensive

 

[Vandal]

I would recommend you to try Bkelec . and buy direct

I have their gemini model and can vouch for it.

they are OEMs to MJ acoustics and used to be for REL as well and use the same philosophy... extremely Vfm for their price.

The costs of transporting it here would be astronomical no? I'd probably pay double. Still, it's worth considering, especially if I happen to visit UK, as I have family there.

 

[arj]

The costs of transporting it here would be astronomical no? I'd probably pay double. Still, it's worth considering, especially if I happen to visit UK, as I have family there.

I thought it was around GBP50 for shipping here..the problem would be the 30% cusotms duty which may make it slightly less that double...but yes that is not a good deal

 

[thevortex]

Bala, How much does the Epos Els sub cost?

It was around the Rs. 30,000 mark when I got it. I dont know if it is still there given that EPOS has recently revamped their ELS line of speakers.

The M Sub from EPOS also has great reviews but I have not really heard that model. I am sure it is more expensive than the ELS one though.

 

[Pandamaudio]

I am a firm believer in the subwoofer concept. But for it to work accurately, it has to be extremely well designed in all aspects and has to have all the necessary level, phase and slope adjustment controls to allow it to be integrated seamlessly with the main speakers for perfect performance.

The inclusion of a proper subwoofer through bass management for stereo hifi or multichannel surround provides the following benifits if the subwoofer crossover is placed at 85Hz or below

Elimination of bass summation error
Minimized reflections in the room resulting in pure bass reproduction
Perfect dispersion if placed at the floor or ceiling corner
Single point source for low frequencies
Bass extension down to very low frequency

Venkat, if you would like me to write a detailed technical explaination to explain this in a sort of simple way, do let me know. I explain all this to my customers quite regularly and demo the same, so its kinda easy for me to do

 

[thekinge]

A very interesting & enlightening discussion!

Until a few months back my setup was a Yamaha AVR/Wharfedale Diamond 8.4 Towers/Wharfedale SW 150 Sub.
.....
.....
Inevitably I used to revert to the ONLY two towers option in the 'pure/direct' mode.
For every genre of music I used to listen to I found that the flat two channel mode was the best.
The sub only came into play when I was watching movies.
Have not used any other sub.Maybe better sounding subs would integrate more efficiently.

I have a similar setup - Onkyo TX-SR876 paired with Wharfedale Diamond 10.7 floorstanders. Now the 10.7 may not be the best speaker around, but they are full 3 way with a dedicated 50 mm / 2 inch mid range driver, and a separate 165 mm / 6.5 inch bass driver. I never use my sub Wharfedale 10.GX (SW250 in its previous life) for music and I engage pure direct mode in the 876 to route everything to the 10.7s. For movies, I have crossed over the front & center at 80 Hz to the sub to let the amp in sub do some work and let the 876 keep sufficient power reserves for the front & center.

I am still playing around with my settings, but am quite happy with these settings at the moment. Also, my musical preferences do not include instruments such as tube & bassoons as far as i know!

 

[suri]

A very interesting & enlightening discussion!



I have a similar setup - Onkyo TX-SR876 paired with Wharfedale Diamond 10.7 floorstanders. Now the 10.7 may not be the best speaker around, but they are full 3 way with a dedicated 50 mm / 2 inch mid range driver, and a separate 165 mm / 6.5 inch bass driver. I never use my sub Wharfedale 10.GX (SW250 in its previous life) for music and I engage pure direct mode in the 876 to route everything to the 10.7s. For movies, I have crossed over the front & center at 80 Hz to the sub to let the amp in sub do some work and let the 876 keep sufficient power reserves for the front & center.

I am still playing around with my settings, but am quite happy with these settings at the moment. Also, my musical preferences do not include instruments such as tube & bassoons as far as i know!

@thekinge and @ajay124 -

i have just this to say-

DO NOT WASTE THE BEST OF YOUR SENTIENT( music -two channel stereo listening) YEARS -

WITHOUT - a (superb {fast} transmission line) subwoofer-

there is little point in waking up years later (like i did) -

and realizing that listening to the reference (two channel stereo) system without a suitable subwoofer-

WAS A WASTE OF PRECIOUS LIFE!:indifferent14:

edit - will be expensive getting a suitable subwoofer - probably more than the cost of the floor-standers - (read) - upwards of 200,000 INR - AFAICS ( as far i can see)

 

[thekinge]

@thekinge and @ajay124 -

i have just this to say-

DO NOT WASTE THE BEST OF YOUR SENTIENT( music -two channel stereo listening) YEARS -

WITHOUT - a (superb {fast} transmission line) subwoofer-

there is little point in waking up years later (like i did) -

and realizing that listening to the reference (two channel stereo) system without a suitable subwoofer-

WAS A WASTE OF PRECIOUS LIFE!:indifferent14:

edit - will be expensive getting a suitable subwoofer - probably more than the cost of the floor-standers - (read) - upwards of 200,000 INR - AFAICS ( as far i can see)

Thanks for sharing this with us suri. The sub I have now cannot go below 30 Hz - and my floorstanders can also go down to 30 Hz. I probably need to invest in a new sub, which I can't do for the next 6 -8 months. Not that I can't afford it, but I just recently invested in a new TV, stereo speakers + HT + AVR and about to invest some more in a CD player, power conditioner, interconnects et al. I think I am done with my A/V spending for this year:sad:

Going to live with this for another 7 months and will hopefully upgrade to a dedicated stereo amp + sub next year. For my upgrade, I was actually considering Emotiva for the amp and Hsu VTF 2 Mk3 or VTF 3 Mk3 for sub.

I looked up TL subs in google but most of the links are pointing towards DIY subs. Can't find any manufacturer selling fully built TL subs. Can you point me to the ones who do?

Also, what is the difference between a normal sub and a TL sub?

 

[captrajesh]

By routing your music through a sub, you are artificially enhancing the low frequencies.

If the Amp of the sub-woofer is not coloured, this should not happen IMHO.

a good sub does not accentuate anything, it will merely reproduce the low frequency information that is there on the recording.

Thats what I thought too. Are we wrong here?

And if the musicians wanted those sounds to be recorded, then I think you're perfectly justified in wanting to hear them, whether or not they come from natural instruments or synthesisers or percussion or pipe organ.

Good point.

what is the difference between a normal sub and a TL sub?

Even I'm looking for the answer.

 

[Hi-Fi]

It seems like those points raised by Prashant are absolutely the main benefits of the subwoofer concept. If Prashant can successfully explain them in detail, it will be very interesting information for all those who have doubts about the truthful and accurate reproduction capability of well designed subwoofer systems. And coincidentally, its probably true that the least important benefit is bass extension down to very low frequency for all the speakers in the system.

The first company to introduce the bass managed subwoofer concept for hi-fi stereo was Miller & Kreisel in 1976 which is the basis of all the satellite-subwoofer system designs that eventually swept through the audio world in all sorts of forms successfully. Unfortunately everyone else cashed in more on this brilliant invention and Ken Kreisel had to close his great company in Feb 2007. Sadly the low cost poor quality systems reached most users and disgraced this brilliant concept as an artificial and unnatural mega bass reproducer. But through superior engineering, most of the high end speaker companies made the subwoofer concept work brilliantly with accurate results far beyond what any stand-alone speaker system could achieve in most room sizes available in most average apartment homes. To make the concept work successfully in all rooms, the subwoofer should operate strictly below 85Hz and floor or ceiling corner placement of the subwoofer is vital to achieve minimum reflections and perfect dispersion. However, nothing great comes easy! One has to calibrate the level, phase and acoustic loading slopes accurately for the subwoofer system to integrate seamlessly with the main speakers for perfect performance as Prashant rightly mentions. This is not easy for the average user to do, without good knowledge and some sort of analyzer. Hopefully someday all good subwoofers will come with some kind of automatic calibration system to solve this problem.

 

[thekinge]

Even I'm looking for the answer.

Hi Captain,

Been looking up in the net and this is the best description I found so far in Wiki:

"In particular, "transmission line" is the name of a specific audio speaker enclosure topology, in which sound from the back of the bass speaker chassis passes along a long (generally convoluted) path within speaker enclosure. The energy is absorbed on this path, or emerges from the open end in phase with the sound radiated from the front of the driver, enhancing the output level at low frequencies.
A typical transmission line speaker layout.

This type of loudspeaker enclosure was proposed in October 1965 by Dr A.R. Bailey and A.H. Radford in Wireless World (p483-486) magazine. The article postulated that energy from the rear of a driver unit could be essentially absorbed, without damping the cone's motion or superimposing internal reflections and resonance, so Bailey and Radford reasoned that the rear wave could be channelled down a long pipe. If the acoustic energy was absorbed, it would not be available to excite resonances. A pipe of sufficient length could be tapered, and stuffed so that the enegy loss was almost complete, minimizing output from the open end. No broad consensus on the ideal taper (expanding, uniform cross-section, or contacting) has been established."​

Given my very limited knowledge in hi-fi, I can only postulate that compared to sealed or ported subs, TL subs in theory should have no direct and/or residual resonance due to those culprits being absorbed by the transmission line. In the context of this thread, a sub that would be used for music should be crisp & clear, i.e., absolutely no resonance and any "after effects". And since the sub should be able to keep pace with the pace of the music, TL subs would fit perfectly given their ability to eliminate residual energy.

Now this is only my hypothesis. suri, venkatcr and other senior members can validate or invalidate this.

I would also be interested to hear from venkatcr about the comparison he is about to do with his Hsu sub! Can this be an item of interest for the next Chennai HFV meet?

 

[iaudio]

Hi Captain,

Been looking up in the net and this is the best description I found so far in Wiki:

"In particular, "transmission line" is the name of a specific audio speaker enclosure topology, in which sound from the back of the bass speaker chassis passes along a long (generally convoluted) path within speaker enclosure. The energy is absorbed on this path, or emerges from the open end in phase with the sound radiated from the front of the driver, enhancing the output level at low frequencies.
A typical transmission line speaker layout.

This type of loudspeaker enclosure was proposed in October 1965 by Dr A.R. Bailey and A.H. Radford in Wireless World (p483-486) magazine. The article postulated that energy from the rear of a driver unit could be essentially absorbed, without damping the cone's motion or superimposing internal reflections and resonance, so Bailey and Radford reasoned that the rear wave could be channelled down a long pipe. If the acoustic energy was absorbed, it would not be available to excite resonances. A pipe of sufficient length could be tapered, and stuffed so that the enegy loss was almost complete, minimizing output from the open end. No broad consensus on the ideal taper (expanding, uniform cross-section, or contacting) has been established."​

Given my very limited knowledge in hi-fi, I can only postulate that compared to sealed or ported subs, TL subs in theory should have no direct and/or residual resonance due to those culprits being absorbed by the transmission line. In the context of this thread, a sub that would be used for music should be crisp & clear, i.e., absolutely no resonance and any "after effects". And since the sub should be able to keep pace with the pace of the music, TL subs would fit perfectly given their ability to eliminate residual energy.

Now this is only my hypothesis. suri, venkatcr and other senior members can validate or invalidate this.

I would also be interested to hear from venkatcr about the comparison he is about to do with his Hsu sub! Can this be an item of interest for the next Chennai HFV meet?

I think that is exactly what Suri told me about the system.