Sub frowned upon for music set up?

[arj]

:yahoo:
Here's a question for the experts. Even if the fundamental of a kick drum strike or a note on a piano is X hertz, let's say 50hz is it (or is it not) possible that the harmonics of that note would extend above and (more critically) below the fundamental frequency?

not the expert..but from all that I know harmonics are always higher. hence if the fundamental is 50Hz then the 2nd harmonic will be 100Hz etc etc...
edited:
It is the Subharmonics which go lower in a "Harmonic Progression"

 

[himadri]

Well
another aspect is the slam of drums,especially those that go low like the bass kick drum and some indian drums.Somehow i have a feeling that a sub adds to the speed and impact.However they have to be fast and well integrated and the room should not mess up the modes. I would say subs are essential.
cheers
himadri

 

[venkatcr]

Here's a question for the experts. Even if the fundamental of a kick drum strike or a note on a piano is X hertz, let's say 50hz is it (or is it not) possible that the harmonics of that note would extend above and (more critically) below the fundamental frequency?

One of the primary objectives of an amplifier is to reduce harmonics, as harmonics beyond a certain order are considered distortion !! Remember THD?

Cheers

 

[thevortex]

Hmm...I am not sure why there is a discussion going on about this.

Different people like different levels of and quality of bass reproduction. Those who really do recommend subwoofers for music - I would be grateful if you could come up with fast, musical subwoofers in the sub Rs. 50,000 price bracket.

 

[venkatcr]

George, Arj - if you hear such music a lot that has bass and similar instruments that create low frequencies, you should certainly use a sub. But to my ears, even a Japanese Taiko such as the ones that Kitaro uses sounds better on good floorstanders than on subs.

Ultimately it is a personal choice.

Cheers

 

[arj]

One of the primary objectives of an amplifier is to reduce harmonics, as harmonics beyond a certain order are considered distortion !! Remember THD?

Cheers

I thiink what he meant are harmonics in the original sound.. the THD is harmonics interoduced by the component which must be reduced

 

[thevortex]

a good sub does not accentuate anything, it will merely reproduce the low frequency information that is there on the recording. And if the musicians wanted those sounds to be recorded, then I think you're perfectly justified in wanting to hear them, whether or not they come from natural instruments or synthesisers or percussion or pipe organ.

Here's a question for the experts. Even if the fundamental of a kick drum strike or a note on a piano is X hertz, let's say 50hz is it (or is it not) possible that the harmonics of that note would extend above and (more critically) below the fundamental frequency?

I say this because to my unscientific ears it sounds like it ought to be the case, because the same notes that i am hearing on my lovely and detailed Usher S520 (rated to go down to 52 hz) sound more filled out and textured on the Mini dancer (rated to go down to 38 hz), and my suspicion was that even though perhaps the S520 gets the fundamental of the note right, and some amount of the harmonics, you need a driver/drivers with a broad enough frequency response to reproduce the fullest possible range of the harmonics of a particular note.

Is this the case? or am i mixing up concepts?

I think you raise a very pertinent and important point.

And we may also need to consider the reverberation characteristics of the performing hall or stadia too. All these contribute to what we recognize as 'live' performances of music.

I guess in some other thread in the past we concluded that the twain shall never meet. Live music and reproduced music that we perceive to be as close to the real thing.

 

[arj]

George, Arj - if you hear such music a lot that has bass and similar instruments that create low frequencies, you should certainly use a sub. But to my ears, even a Japanese Taiko such as the ones that Kitaro uses sounds better on good floorstanders than on subs.

Ultimately it is a personal choice.

Cheers

agree..but it also depends on the implementation of the sub..MOST of the arrangements are really bad in the sense that it just pumps up the bass. in a good setup you will not feel the sub at all..but if you switch it off you suddenly feel something having gone amiss .

In fact a floorstander sometimes messes up the Bass even more if it is not placed well and in small rooms it can be tricky to setup !

I I said..I myself was surprised to see the amount of Low level info in even Jazz Vocals and Piano tracks...although in my present setup i just cannot even hear it :sad: ..an my speakers (sealed box) go down to around 44 at 3db and 37 at 6 db.

 

[Vandal]

Hmm...I am not sure why there is a discussion going on about this.

Different people like different levels of and quality of bass reproduction. Those who really do recommend subwoofers for music - I would be grateful if you could come up with fast, musical subwoofers in the sub Rs. 50,000 price bracket.

So, if I were to ask the experts here, what would be the best subwoofers for a price of not more than 50K, what would the answers be?
Polk's DSW 500 and 600 Pro are already on my sampling list. Any others?

 

[Rajiv]

So, if I were to ask the experts here, what would be the best subwoofers for a price of not more than 50K, what would the answers be?
Polk's DSW 500 and 600 Pro are already on my sampling list. Any others?

Hi,

For 50K I would DIY,or get someone to build it for you.

You could build a sub that will be better than most comercial offerings at higher prices.

http://www.hifi-forum.de/index.php?action=browseT&back=1&sort=lpost&forum_id=168&thread=29

The driver used by Ashok is no longer made but similar driver can be bought from
AE Speakers Online Store

A good cost effective sub.
http://www.hifi-forum.de/index.php?action=browseT&back=1&sort=lpost&forum_id=168&thread=32


Regards
Rajiv

 

[Vandal]

Hi Rajiv,

I'm a total newbie when it comes to assembling stuff and DIY's. Unless there are builders around who would do the job for me for a fee, this is not really option for someone like me.

But it's good to know that there is such stuff available. Ah, for the joy of being an electronics guy.

 

[ajay124]

Until a few months back my setup was a Yamaha AVR/Wharfedale Diamond 8.4 Towers/Wharfedale SW 150 Sub.During the 3-4 years I owned this setup I did plenty of fiddling around with the controls-
routing the lower frequencies through only the two towers.
routing the lower frequencies through both the tower and the subwoofer.
routing the lower frequencies through only the subwoofer.
tried crossover settings from 60-100hz.
tried all the AVR options of rock,jazz,classical,blah blah,blah.
Inevitably I used to revert to the ONLY two towers option in the 'pure/direct' mode.
For every genre of music I used to listen to I found that the flat two channel mode was the best.
The sub only came into play when I was watching movies.
Have not used any other sub.Maybe better sounding subs would integrate more efficiently.

 

[psychotropic]

hehe so i WAS mixing up concepts but i'd still love to know how the same note that you can hear clear and well defined on a speaker with a 52hz floor, soudns that much more textured and full on something with a 38 hz floor. what is that additional information?

not the expert..but from all that I know harmonics are always higher. hence if the fundamental is 50Hz then the 2nd harmonic will be 100Hz etc etc...

 

[arj]

I just realised that I wrote the above in a hurry and missed out the concept of Sub.-harmonics . My apologies

those are the envelope of soun d which goes Below the Fundamental in the same progression (1/2, 1/4...) and that is what a sub augments so well.

It is the combination of the fundamental with the Harmonics and Sub-harmonics which make up pitch and timbre of the sound. hence the Concept that when the bass response is enhanced, the Midrange is also improved !

 

[arj]

One of the primary objectives of an amplifier is to reduce harmonics, as harmonics beyond a certain order are considered distortion !! Remember THD?

Cheers

Venkat, realised that i had the following drafted as an addendum but not posted !
Harmonics are what let you tell instruments apart as without them, similar instruments that played the same frequencies would sound the same!

and it is this which changes the tonality of sound across speakers/ components as well. the relation between the fundamental and harmonics also defines if the sound will sound lean (less fundamental tones) or boomy (more fundamental). and getting it right across the frequency spectrum is very difficult.
Thats why as suri mentioned, breaking it up into 2 units helps

That is another reason why single drivers are so difucult to get right as the cone not only needs to produce all the fundamentals across the spectrum but the entire harmonics and sub harmonics as well..its a physical limitation.

and thats why SETs makes the sound so lush as their natural even harmonic THD makes the speaker play enhance the harmonics content (without compromising on the fundamental)

 

[psychotropic]

yay, so i was (sort of) right. And AFAIK the job of the amplifier is not to reduce harmonics, but to not add any harmonics of its own (unless it's a tube amp, where its job is also to add some euphonic even-order harmonics to give it the 'tube warmth'). harmonic distortion is when the amp adds harmonics of its own and these harmonics are said to distort the original signal.

That aside, basically a sound system that can reproduce a broader frequency spectrum is, ceteris paribus, better than one that can produce a narrower frequency spectrum. So a well constructed, well selected and placed subwoofer should enhance the musical experience.

If someone frowns upon a sub for music, that someone probably heard a poorly constructed and/or poorly selected and/or poorly placed sub.

 

[GeorgeO]

I think the sub's performance depends many variables- type of music, size of room, type of sub, size of sub, placement, some would say number of subs. type of satellite, etc.

Flolr standers are all not the same-you have them in different flavours- FR, 2 ways and 3 ways. To make a general statement that floor standers will perform well without subs is like saying all cars are equal.I have heard towers with powered dipole woofers at the bottom, sounding very nice. Equally, my FRs using Fostex drivers sound wimpy without a sub-for almost any music.

Maybe I am biased since I have a couple of subs and I have had them for almost 8-10 years now, so my listening is ALWAYS with my sub-it is kept always on..OTOH I have a stand mounted using very good mid woofers that have excellent ( and very satisfying) low frequency extension, and I may not augment them with a sub. It may be that the 55wpc amp is contributing to this-with a lower powered tube amp, this may not have happened.

George

 

[suri]

yay, so i was (sort of) right.

hahaha!!! - psychotropic - don't you know?

you will (always) be right?-

members of the judiciary have honed senses -

and the ability-

to SEE!

see what (other ordinary mortals) cannot see!

look at these statistics-

90% of humans live a reflex life - (cause and effect)-

of the remaining 10% -

1 % remove themselves from their existence - and observe the world dis-passionately - (to the despair of their dependents)

of them - 1 % think in abstract terms -

AND MOST OF THEM ARE MEMBERS OF YOUR PROFESSION

so you will be right - mostly!

regds

 

[corElement]

sadly for 22k I dont think it gets any better than a polk dsw pro 500 at a retail leve, however abroad for 9000rs / 199 approx from vanns you could get a jamo sub 550 which owns everything for its price. Sadly this is india.

 

[suri]

Until a few months back my setup was a Yamaha AVR/Wharfedale Diamond 8.4 Towers/Wharfedale SW 150 Sub.During the 3-4 years I owned this setup I did plenty of fiddling around with the controls-
routing the lower frequencies through only the two towers.
routing the lower frequencies through both the tower and the subwoofer.
routing the lower frequencies through only the subwoofer.
tried crossover settings from 60-100hz.
tried all the AVR options of rock,jazz,classical,blah blah,blah.
Inevitably I used to revert to the ONLY two towers option in the 'pure/direct' mode.
For every genre of music I used to listen to I found that the flat two channel mode was the best.
The sub only came into play when I was watching movies.
Have not used any other sub.Maybe better sounding subs would integrate more efficiently.

Hi ajay124 -

the true experience -

of the power and majesty -

of that incomparable instrument - the church organ-

will never be yours ( notwithstanding your VA loudspeakers)-

without the addition of a (suitable) sub-bass air-coupler ( and the room to match)

regds