The ABC of speakers - Dynamic Range - without which sound has no life

[siddharthdas]

It's one thing to listen to brick-walled 1980's pop music, and quite another to experience a wonderfully mastered high dynamic-range recording. Live music has tonnes of dynamics - a key driver in the perception of liveness. Except until the moment you take a little peek into what it takes to make that happen. Sound loudness is logarithmic - what we feel is twice as loud, takes 10X amplification.

While modest listening volumes normally take a few watts of distortion free amplification, transients - such as when a snare drum is hit or a cymbal, or the instant after a guitar is plucked see loudness of the signal spike 2x-4x or more in a millisecond. In that short amount of time, you need to deliver 10x to 100x of base power, distortion-free, and without compression to deliver the transient faithfully to the speaker. That’s why we need amplifier headroom, or the ability to deliver clean, high, power for short bursts of time.

Then comes the ability of the speaker to reproduce the transient without compression or distortion - say 100db @1m. This requires linear performance under high excursion conditions (expensive drivers) or adding up more and more drivers to stay within the linear range for the driver. Line arrays do that really well - albeit with other tradeoffs, other than cost and size, and non-point source-ness.

Most sounds systems, especially boom boxes, that the majority uses, can do neither - i.e. why most recordings are brick-walled and or compressed (decreased dynamic range) so that they can be played on regular setups. But there goes liveness . Else you’ll have unmanaged compression + lousy distorted sound. Corollary for high res recordings - high resolution sound brings nothing more to the table unless combined with mastering that preserves dynamic range. And when you have such a master, you need a system that can play it back faithfully

 

[Vineethkumar01]

The loudspeaker part of a system capable of reproducing a good dynamic range should ensure that 'compression' in various forms that affects its performance is avoided/minimised. I once asked Kimmosto about how to identify drivers with good dynamics. The following is his reply.

"I don't have any clear plan or suggestion how compression should be measured. Common method is to measure SPL spectrum or spectrum of fundamental and few harmonics with multiple levels. Normalized by the response measured with the lowest level shows response linearity. This kind of measurements can be done to single driver or complete speaker. Main problem is that signal with constant level does not represent spectrum while typical use. It does not reveal how much for example LF drops compared to HF with some music such as classical orchestra, death metal or RnB. (Result is usually too optimistic compared to disaster in real life where about 15" vented woofer is compatible with 1" alu dome. HF with compression driver needs few 18" woofers to be balanced at high SPL without bleeding ears).
M-Noise would be more practical though spectrum is even more demanding for LF than limited pink. It's just noise so measurement is simple with spectrum analyzer. Reality with casual music is something between previous two.

Identifying dynamic drivers without measurements is partly guessing. Drivers with high efficiency produce less heat per Pascal so relative thermal compression should be low if motor has also proper ventilation. High efficiency is produced with large and light enough cone, strong motor and low mechanical and electrical losses. High maximum SPL requires also some excursion capacity though cone area or possible horn compensates that"

Hope this helps a bit.

 

[drlowmu]

Dynamic contrasting is obtained ( and usually lost ) in several ways.

First, the audio amplifier itself must be designed with preserving dynamics, with each and every aspect of it's layout, parts choices, and in it's topological design. As soon as the original source signal's dynamics gets " lost " inside the amplifier, it does not mean a thing, as to what ANY speaker is doing, or capable of doing, does it? No, not if the originally recorded dynamics... first ......... got LOST inside that tube audio amp.

Of course, one MUST choose the best way to preserve these pointed-out-earlier 10Xs dynamics. We do this, by selecting the most appropriate amplifier and speaker to own.

So MY first concern since about 1980 is : one must build an audio amp to be able to preserve dynamics, every way possible, while powering your intelligently-chosen speaker. The absolute best answer I have found, after half a century plus of audiophiling, was summarized earlier today, here :

The ABC of speakers - the least an audiophile must know. A series of posts to start conversations about the principles of speaker audiophilia.

I am newly active here. After doing a brief survey, I thought I might create short series of posts around some issues that are widely discussed but seldom addressed from the pov of the learner. I am what you might call an advanced learner. So bear with me for stating the obvious. I am curious to...

www.hifivision.com

The amp gets designed with the speaker in mind. Given siddharthas' ten times examples, the BEST known transducer for preserving dynamic playback is a front horn loaded compression driver. It is exactly what you have, in an ALTEC A7-8, ... and for both drivers !!!

I should also note, in the case of ALTEC, besides BOTH compression and FRONT horn loading of the A7's 15 inch ( or 16 inch ) woofer occurs down to about 150 hZ, , ALTEC historically relies upon a bass reflex woofer loading, from 150 hZ down to about 50 hZ.

The front horn loaded compression woofer, IF optimized few are , is wonderful to re-produce split second play -back dynamics, and a scary and true sense of dynamic realism, VS 98% of all other speaker implementations available. I want to hear that !!!

Six days ago, I changed my woofer driver, from the vintage ( fabled ?? ) 515B, to a circa 1995 ALTEC 515G-8HP. This newly installed woofer replacement driver is conservatively rated as 104.5 dB / 1 Watt / 1 meter. How many woofers are so-rated in audio?? What happens when it fires into an A7-'s short FRONT horn ? It took me three full exhausting days of work this past week, to finally optimize the new driver to my liking. But now I am delighted. Drum solos, closely miked, are breath-taking and marvelously exciting for me to hear, as is the diction on Gilbert and Sullivan spoken ( sung ) English language words. The G and S sung words ending in "S "es and in " T "s , are finally totally, faithfully, and clearly reproduced. What a joy to experience.

Notice, while likely everyone in this thread will likely discuss in theory terms, I am describing to you my best, most recent, actual, practical, and an affordable answer to high fidelity in one's home.

Watch this, Herb infrers, ONLY maybe one or two such speakers exist, "TWO WAYS" !! :

OK, I have covered briefly the best speaker type, ( high efficiency front loaded horn, ALTEC ) in terms of dynamics, and I do know I am right on-topic.

What about the other two OBVIOUSLY needed components that proceed this thoughtfully chosen speaker ( to become outright exciting to hear ) ???????. Two components immediately come to mind, the amplifier, and the speaker wires.

The best speaker wiring myself, and about a dozen people with true High End High Efficiency horn speakers use, has been recently determined ( in every instance thus far !!! ) to be the TRIO DIY wiring as per my recent HFV thread. All details are right here in HFV ( search words........... m22759 ).

Amps, in relationship to preserving ON TIME dynamics, is the other component. This opens up a total can of WORMS.

I have unjustly been thrown off of two or three Forums in the USA for my critique of amplifiers. The amp owners get mad at me ( and NOT their turkey audio amplifier ) and rebel against me. When they have spent lots of money on their amp, they get mad when I say it is a turkey, inadequate, a piece of garbage .

But guess what, this is how I have felt about most audio amplifiers since about 1978, starting with my first Audio Mentor, the speaker Manufacturer, Robert W. Fulton. Yes, in reference to dynamics, tube amps stink !!! There is only ONE manufacturer, in the entire world, capable of building a satisfactory - to - me tube audio amplifier in 2022. This is my second Audio Mentor, Dennis Fraker, who today - less-actively after Covid runs a company ( on his terms !! ) called Serious Stereo. Read on-line a 2005 RMAF Denver USA audio show review.

6moons.com - industry features: Rocky Mountain Audio Fest 2005

So what is wrong with everyone's tube amp, except what Dennis and I will build ? Among other things, it uses a power supply, taught to E.E.s in school, that NEVER EVER cuts the mustard in terms of Dynamics.

In 2005 to 2007, I introduced the concepts of our new supply, short-named 'LSES" for " low stored energy supply" to " Audio Asylum " Members in the USA. Most E.E. types rebelled, ( although two graduate E.Es, sharp guys, built, listened, and loved it , URLS available upon request ). I eventually got banned from A.A. Perhaps this occurred a result of some A.A. Members ( 98% had never even heard this power supply topology ) complaining to Moderators, after getting mad.

I divulge this herein, in hopes of a more informed and even-response from most of you HFV FMs and Moderators !!! I KNOW it is fair for me to say, that 98% of all existing tube amps in this world, IMHO, can not be dynamically correct ( VS LSES ) because of their use of a text-book conventional design.

In my apartment's modest-sized living room, I am listening to my SN#1 stereo 6005 amp ( channels connected in parallel - maybe 5 Watts ) driving a single A7-8 VOTT speaker. It uses the newer driver I installed - this 1995 ALTEC 515G-8HP earlier in the week. Yes, I would LOVE it if siddharthdas were able to hear both my drum solos and Gilbert and Sullivan CDs played back, how exciting and dynamic, and on time, to experience !!

One other supporting piece of evidence. This is dated 12-2022, and not 2005, is the only other stereo LSES 6005 amp in existence that I personally built, SN #2, running now for about a month in Hong Kong. Belonging to an highly audio-experienced, quite nice audiophile :

The " PFA TRIPLE 6005 "..... DIY tube amplifier of 2022.

the best sounding amps in THIS world are NOT ever made by EEs and pHDs particularly, but by JUST a few people world-wide, who LISTEN and build, and have a passion for it all. Never forget that !! An absolutely forgettable and a totally unnecessary comment and most importantly a classic example...

www.hifivision.com

It is about time, people in audio got to use and enjoy the heck out of better-designed tube amps !!! Amps that actually can do dynamics, ( subject of this theory - thread. ) I will have to finish the " TRIPLE 6005 " amp design and it's thread, finances permitting sometimes in 2023. It is posted up here, thanks to HFV.

Best wishes to all !!

Jeff Medwin

 

[arj]

Dynamic range and timbre ie tonal density are 2 of the most important things i start of while listening to a setup. ability to reproduce a whisper as well as a slam at the regular volume and the the richness right from vocals to a drum to a flute/triangle/tabla etc.

soundstaging etc etc come much later since they depend do much on the acoustic/spatial setup in the room.

 

[siddharthdas]

The loudspeaker part of a system capable of reproducing a good dynamic range should ensure that 'compression' in various forms that affects its performance is avoided/minimised. I once asked Kimmosto about how to identify drivers with good dynamics. The following is his reply.

"I don't have any clear plan or suggestion how compression should be measured. Common method is to measure SPL spectrum or spectrum of fundamental and few harmonics with multiple levels. Normalized by the response measured with the lowest level shows response linearity. This kind of measurements can be done to single driver or complete speaker. Main problem is that signal with constant level does not represent spectrum while typical use. It does not reveal how much for example LF drops compared to HF with some music such as classical orchestra, death metal or RnB. (Result is usually too optimistic compared to disaster in real life where about 15" vented woofer is compatible with 1" alu dome. HF with compression driver needs few 18" woofers to be balanced at high SPL without bleeding ears).
M-Noise would be more practical though spectrum is even more demanding for LF than limited pink. It's just noise so measurement is simple with spectrum analyzer. Reality with casual music is something between previous two.

Identifying dynamic drivers without measurements is partly guessing. Drivers with high efficiency produce less heat per Pascal so relative thermal compression should be low if motor has also proper ventilation. High efficiency is produced with large and light enough cone, strong motor and low mechanical and electrical losses. High maximum SPL requires also some excursion capacity though cone area or possible horn compensates that"

Hope this helps a bit.

Thanks @Vineethkumar01. One might add though, that as long as any given audio frequency can be reproduced at 100 db or so @1m, that pretty much takes care of all real life music situations sans the cannons in Tchaikovsky's famous piece. So at least for me, that suffices. So would like to hear why that might not work. For example I'd measure each driver for +/1 one octave past its passband on both ends. Should work, right? There are of course issues of driver matching, sensitivity etc. but as long as the basic idea is served.

Dynamic range and timbre ie tonal density are 2 of the most important things i start of while listening to a setup. ability to reproduce a whisper as well as a slam at the regular volume and the the richness right from vocals to a drum to a flute/triangle/tabla etc.

soundstaging etc etc come much later since they depend do much on the acoustic/spatial setup in the room.

Super well said!! The other thing I often consider is the je ne sais quais, the mojo, of listening to music. You know when it's fun and enjoyable and foot tapping. And then you need to plant yourself in the center, close your eyes and bathe in the magic of soundstage. #1 is often sufficient by itself for most of us. #2 needs staging and set as you mentioned, not to mention, dedicated listening.

Dynamic contrasting is obtained ( and usually lost ) in several ways.

First, the audio amplifier itself must be designed with preserving dynamics, with each and every aspect of it's layout, parts choices, and in it's topological design. As soon as the original source signal's dynamics gets " lost " inside the amplifier, it does not mean a thing, as to what ANY speaker is doing, or capable of doing, does it? No, not if the originally recorded dynamics... first ......... got LOST inside that tube audio amp.

Of course, one MUST choose the best way to preserve these pointed-out-earlier 10Xs dynamics. We do this, by selecting the most appropriate amplifier and speaker to own.

So MY first concern since about 1980 is : one must build an audio amp to be able to preserve dynamics, every way possible, while powering your intelligently-chosen speaker. The absolute best answer I have found, after half a century plus of audiophiling, was summarized earlier today, here :

The ABC of speakers - the least an audiophile must know. A series of posts to start conversations about the principles of speaker audiophilia.

I am newly active here. After doing a brief survey, I thought I might create short series of posts around some issues that are widely discussed but seldom addressed from the pov of the learner. I am what you might call an advanced learner. So bear with me for stating the obvious. I am curious to...

www.hifivision.com

The amp gets designed with the speaker in mind. Given siddharthas' ten times examples, the BEST known transducer for preserving dynamic playback is a front horn loaded compression driver. It is exactly what you have, in an ALTEC A7-8, ... and for both drivers !!!

I should also note, in the case of ALTEC, besides BOTH compression and FRONT horn loading of the A7's 15 inch ( or 16 inch ) woofer occurs down to about 150 hZ, , ALTEC historically relies upon a bass reflex woofer loading, from 150 hZ down to about 50 hZ.

The front horn loaded compression woofer, IF optimized few are , is wonderful to re-produce split second play -back dynamics, and a scary and true sense of dynamic realism, VS 98% of all other speaker implementations available. I want to hear that !!!

Six days ago, I changed my woofer driver, from the vintage ( fabled ?? ) 515B, to a circa 1995 ALTEC 515G-8HP. This newly installed woofer replacement driver is conservatively rated as 104.5 dB / 1 Watt / 1 meter. How many woofers are so-rated in audio?? What happens when it fires into an A7-'s short FRONT horn ? It took me three full exhausting days of work this past week, to finally optimize the new driver to my liking. But now I am delighted. Drum solos, closely miked, are breath-taking and marvelously exciting for me to hear, as is the diction on Gilbert and Sullivan spoken ( sung ) English language words. The G and S sung words ending in "S "es and in " T "s , are finally totally, faithfully, and clearly reproduced. What a joy to experience.

Notice, while likely everyone in this thread will likely discuss in theory terms, I am describing to you my best, most recent, actual, practical, and an affordable answer to high fidelity in one's home.

Watch this, Herb infrers, ONLY maybe one or two such speakers exist, "TWO WAYS" !! :

OK, I have covered briefly the best speaker type, ( high efficiency front loaded horn, ALTEC ) in terms of dynamics, and I do know I am right on-topic.

What about the other two OBVIOUSLY needed components that proceed this thoughtfully chosen speaker ( to become outright exciting to hear ) ???????. Two components immediately come to mind, the amplifier, and the speaker wires.

The best speaker wiring myself, and about a dozen people with true High End High Efficiency horn speakers use, has been recently determined ( in every instance thus far !!! ) to be the TRIO DIY wiring as per my recent HFV thread. All details are right here in HFV ( search words........... m22759 ).

Amps, in relationship to preserving ON TIME dynamics, is the other component. This opens up a total can of WORMS.

I have unjustly been thrown off of two or three Forums in the USA for my critique of amplifiers. The amp owners get mad at me ( and NOT their turkey audio amplifier ) and rebel against me. When they have spent lots of money on their amp, they get mad when I say it is a turkey, inadequate, a piece of garbage .

But guess what, this is how I have felt about most audio amplifiers since about 1978, starting with my first Audio Mentor, the speaker Manufacturer, Robert W. Fulton. Yes, in reference to dynamics, tube amps stink !!! There is only ONE manufacturer, in the entire world, capable of building a satisfactory - to - me tube audio amplifier in 2022. This is my second Audio Mentor, Dennis Fraker, who today - less-actively after Covid runs a company ( on his terms !! ) called Serious Stereo. Read on-line a 2005 RMAF Denver USA audio show review.

6moons.com - industry features: Rocky Mountain Audio Fest 2005

So what is wrong with everyone's tube amp, except what Dennis and I will build ? Among other things, it uses a power supply, taught to E.E.s in school, that NEVER EVER cuts the mustard in terms of Dynamics.

In 2005 to 2007, I introduced the concepts of our new supply, short-named 'LSES" for " low stored energy supply" to " Audio Asylum " Members in the USA. Most E.E. types rebelled, ( although two graduate E.Es, sharp guys, built, listened, and loved it , URLS available upon request ). I eventually got banned from A.A. Perhaps this occurred a result of some A.A. Members ( 98% had never even heard this power supply topology ) complaining to Moderators, after getting mad.

I divulge this herein, in hopes of a more informed and even-response from most of you HFV FMs and Moderators !!! I KNOW it is fair for me to say, that 98% of all existing tube amps in this world, IMHO, can not be dynamically correct ( VS LSES ) because of their use of a text-book conventional design.

In my apartment's modest-sized living room, I am listening to my SN#1 stereo 6005 amp ( channels connected in parallel - maybe 5 Watts ) driving a single A7-8 VOTT speaker. It uses the newer driver I installed - this 1995 ALTEC 515G-8HP earlier in the week. Yes, I would LOVE it if siddharthdas were able to hear both my drum solos and Gilbert and Sullivan CDs played back, how exciting and dynamic, and on time, to experience !!

One other supporting piece of evidence. This is dated 12-2022, and not 2005, is the only other stereo LSES 6005 amp in existence that I personally built, SN #2, running now for about a month in Hong Kong. Belonging to an highly audio-experienced, quite nice audiophile :

The " PFA TRIPLE 6005 "..... DIY tube amplifier of 2022.

the best sounding amps in THIS world are NOT ever made by EEs and pHDs particularly, but by JUST a few people world-wide, who LISTEN and build, and have a passion for it all. Never forget that !! An absolutely forgettable and a totally unnecessary comment and most importantly a classic example...

www.hifivision.com

It is about time, people in audio got to use and enjoy the heck out of better-designed tube amps !!! Amps that actually can do dynamics, ( subject of this theory - thread. ) I will have to finish the " TRIPLE 6005 " amp design and it's thread, finances permitting sometimes in 2023. It is posted up here, thanks to HFV.

Best wishes to all !!

Jeff Medwin

Jeff, I think some of us are jealous of you right now, and quite unable to fathom your pleasures, live as we do in the world of low sensitive solid state systems. That said though, once we get past the difficult engineering of making them work, the results are not shabby at all. Now all I want to do is listen to a setup like yours and experience the "gestalt" of music

Dynamic contrasting is obtained ( and usually lost ) in several ways.

First, the audio amplifier itself must be designed with preserving dynamics, with each and every aspect of it's layout, parts choices, and in it's topological design. As soon as the original source signal's dynamics gets " lost " inside the amplifier, it does not mean a thing, as to what ANY speaker is doing, or capable of doing, does it? No, not if the originally recorded dynamics... first ......... got LOST inside that tube audio amp.

Of course, one MUST choose the best way to preserve these pointed-out-earlier 10Xs dynamics. We do this, by selecting the most appropriate amplifier and speaker to own.

So MY first concern since about 1980 is : one must build an audio amp to be able to preserve dynamics, every way possible, while powering your intelligently-chosen speaker. The absolute best answer I have found, after half a century plus of audiophiling, was summarized earlier today, here :

The ABC of speakers - the least an audiophile must know. A series of posts to start conversations about the principles of speaker audiophilia.

I am newly active here. After doing a brief survey, I thought I might create short series of posts around some issues that are widely discussed but seldom addressed from the pov of the learner. I am what you might call an advanced learner. So bear with me for stating the obvious. I am curious to...

www.hifivision.com

The amp gets designed with the speaker in mind. Given siddharthas' ten times examples, the BEST known transducer for preserving dynamic playback is a front horn loaded compression driver. It is exactly what you have, in an ALTEC A7-8, ... and for both drivers !!!

I should also note, in the case of ALTEC, besides BOTH compression and FRONT horn loading of the A7's 15 inch ( or 16 inch ) woofer occurs down to about 150 hZ, , ALTEC historically relies upon a bass reflex woofer loading, from 150 hZ down to about 50 hZ.

The front horn loaded compression woofer, IF optimized few are , is wonderful to re-produce split second play -back dynamics, and a scary and true sense of dynamic realism, VS 98% of all other speaker implementations available. I want to hear that !!!

Six days ago, I changed my woofer driver, from the vintage ( fabled ?? ) 515B, to a circa 1995 ALTEC 515G-8HP. This newly installed woofer replacement driver is conservatively rated as 104.5 dB / 1 Watt / 1 meter. How many woofers are so-rated in audio?? What happens when it fires into an A7-'s short FRONT horn ? It took me three full exhausting days of work this past week, to finally optimize the new driver to my liking. But now I am delighted. Drum solos, closely miked, are breath-taking and marvelously exciting for me to hear, as is the diction on Gilbert and Sullivan spoken ( sung ) English language words. The G and S sung words ending in "S "es and in " T "s , are finally totally, faithfully, and clearly reproduced. What a joy to experience.

Notice, while likely everyone in this thread will likely discuss in theory terms, I am describing to you my best, most recent, actual, practical, and an affordable answer to high fidelity in one's home.

Watch this, Herb infrers, ONLY maybe one or two such speakers exist, "TWO WAYS" !! :

OK, I have covered briefly the best speaker type, ( high efficiency front loaded horn, ALTEC ) in terms of dynamics, and I do know I am right on-topic.

What about the other two OBVIOUSLY needed components that proceed this thoughtfully chosen speaker ( to become outright exciting to hear ) ???????. Two components immediately come to mind, the amplifier, and the speaker wires.

The best speaker wiring myself, and about a dozen people with true High End High Efficiency horn speakers use, has been recently determined ( in every instance thus far !!! ) to be the TRIO DIY wiring as per my recent HFV thread. All details are right here in HFV ( search words........... m22759 ).

Amps, in relationship to preserving ON TIME dynamics, is the other component. This opens up a total can of WORMS.

I have unjustly been thrown off of two or three Forums in the USA for my critique of amplifiers. The amp owners get mad at me ( and NOT their turkey audio amplifier ) and rebel against me. When they have spent lots of money on their amp, they get mad when I say it is a turkey, inadequate, a piece of garbage .

But guess what, this is how I have felt about most audio amplifiers since about 1978, starting with my first Audio Mentor, the speaker Manufacturer, Robert W. Fulton. Yes, in reference to dynamics, tube amps stink !!! There is only ONE manufacturer, in the entire world, capable of building a satisfactory - to - me tube audio amplifier in 2022. This is my second Audio Mentor, Dennis Fraker, who today - less-actively after Covid runs a company ( on his terms !! ) called Serious Stereo. Read on-line a 2005 RMAF Denver USA audio show review.

6moons.com - industry features: Rocky Mountain Audio Fest 2005

So what is wrong with everyone's tube amp, except what Dennis and I will build ? Among other things, it uses a power supply, taught to E.E.s in school, that NEVER EVER cuts the mustard in terms of Dynamics.

In 2005 to 2007, I introduced the concepts of our new supply, short-named 'LSES" for " low stored energy supply" to " Audio Asylum " Members in the USA. Most E.E. types rebelled, ( although two graduate E.Es, sharp guys, built, listened, and loved it , URLS available upon request ). I eventually got banned from A.A. Perhaps this occurred a result of some A.A. Members ( 98% had never even heard this power supply topology ) complaining to Moderators, after getting mad.

I divulge this herein, in hopes of a more informed and even-response from most of you HFV FMs and Moderators !!! I KNOW it is fair for me to say, that 98% of all existing tube amps in this world, IMHO, can not be dynamically correct ( VS LSES ) because of their use of a text-book conventional design.

In my apartment's modest-sized living room, I am listening to my SN#1 stereo 6005 amp ( channels connected in parallel - maybe 5 Watts ) driving a single A7-8 VOTT speaker. It uses the newer driver I installed - this 1995 ALTEC 515G-8HP earlier in the week. Yes, I would LOVE it if siddharthdas were able to hear both my drum solos and Gilbert and Sullivan CDs played back, how exciting and dynamic, and on time, to experience !!

One other supporting piece of evidence. This is dated 12-2022, and not 2005, is the only other stereo LSES 6005 amp in existence that I personally built, SN #2, running now for about a month in Hong Kong. Belonging to an highly audio-experienced, quite nice audiophile :

The " PFA TRIPLE 6005 "..... DIY tube amplifier of 2022.

the best sounding amps in THIS world are NOT ever made by EEs and pHDs particularly, but by JUST a few people world-wide, who LISTEN and build, and have a passion for it all. Never forget that !! An absolutely forgettable and a totally unnecessary comment and most importantly a classic example...

www.hifivision.com

It is about time, people in audio got to use and enjoy the heck out of better-designed tube amps !!! Amps that actually can do dynamics, ( subject of this theory - thread. ) I will have to finish the " TRIPLE 6005 " amp design and it's thread, finances permitting sometimes in 2023. It is posted up here, thanks to HFV.

Best wishes to all !!

Jeff Medwin

Jeff, I must add also, that solid state does help modularize the problems a little bit and go after them one piece at a time. Your path looks like a much more elegant way of doing it - although I'd still have three questions (in theory, since I have no direct experience to compare) - dispersion, tube amps' sonic signature, cone damping! Thoughts?

 

[arj]

You know when it's fun and enjoyable and foot tapping. And then you need to plant yourself in the center, close your eyes and bathe in the magic of soundstage. #1 is often sufficient by itself for most of us. #2 needs staging and set as you mentioned, not to mention, dedicated listening.

So true, the involvement. when everything around timing in the music comes right the body reacts to it

Specifically in dynamics there are 2 elements one is the macro where the entire spectrum is reproduced. Then there is the micro dynamics where the subtle variations are captures. I find it easier to catch with indian music and gazhals and the flute. Of course there is an element of the systems ability to resolve which also comes into play

 

[IndianEars]

Dynamic range and timbre ie tonal density are 2 of the most important things i start of while listening to a setup. ability to reproduce a whisper as well as a slam at the regular volume and the the richness right from vocals to a drum to a flute/triangle/tabla etc.

soundstaging etc etc come much later since they depend do much on the acoustic/spatial setup in the room.

Do keep in mind that dynamic range, timbre and many other attributes can be done with a Mono amplifier-speaker system.

IMO, if one invests in 2 of EVERTHING, along the Entire Audio chain, ie a Stereo Setup, sound staging is crucially important ....

 

[Vineethkumar01]

Thanks @Vineethkumar01. One might add though, that as long as any given audio frequency can be reproduced at 100 db or so @1m, that pretty much takes care of all real life music situations sans the cannons in Tchaikovsky's famous piece. So at least for me, that suffices. So would like to hear why that might not work. For example I'd measure each driver for +/1 one octave past its passband on both ends. Should work, right? There are of course issues of driver matching, sensitivity etc. but as long as the basic idea is served.

In my opinion/experience and in the opinion of some other people who are much much more experienced than me in this topic, just having a speaker/driver that has a flat transfer function in its intended passband (range of frequencies it plays) is not enough for reproducing good dynamics. It may be good but not the best possible/achievable. This was one of the aspects that Kimmosto had pointed out in my previous post. This is because the 'timing'-related aspects (excess group delay, ETC, etc derived from the impulse response) play a big role in the dynamics-reproduction capability.
Here is what Kimmosto's subjective opinion is about a speaker that had perfect directivity & spinorama/frequency responses but bad timing.

Importance of impulse response

Nice. So if the impulse response is perfect, you get text book frequency response? Yes, you will. But a little deeper digging is worthwhile... Different usages of term "frequency response" are the source of great confusion, imo. The common usage of frequency response often does not include...

audiosciencereview.com

Note that we haven't even considered aspects like power compression and its impact yet.
Here is an example of a bad-timing response again from Kimmosto:

Importance of impulse response

Nice. So if the impulse response is perfect, you get text book frequency response? Yes, you will. But a little deeper digging is worthwhile... Different usages of term "frequency response" are the source of great confusion, imo. The common usage of frequency response often does not include...

audiosciencereview.com

Often many ASR members and measurement fanatics believe that spinorama/frequency response measurements alone is the be all, end all of measurements needed for speaker design. Such an approach is fundamentally flawed and arises from the general approach to stick to the linear system theory-based analysis in a scenario where it may not the best approach/fit. Music signals (offcourse depending on genre) consists of transient peaks. Frequency response measurements mostly show only the steady state behaviour of the loudspeaker. The transients-related information has to be learned from elsewhere. If we study the relevant literature, we can see that music/speech is more meaningfully studied using a joint time-frequency plane analysis, be it using short-time Fourier transform, wavelet decomposition, or something else. Hence, a joint time-frequency domain analysis may also yield better insights and more meaningful information about the transient/dynamics reproduction capability of loudspeakers than a frequency domain-only analysis.

 

[arj]

Do keep in mind that dynamic range, timbre and many other attributes can be done with a Mono amplifier-speaker system.

IMO, if one invests in 2 of EVERTHING, along the Entire Audio chain, ie a Stereo Setup, sound staging is crucially important ....

Thats true . What I was pointing is the above is the first priority. Of course the soundstage etc do come in but only if the setup is meeting the first priority ( my personal approach).

I actually do like mono but if its a stereo recording unless you have a summing circuit in the amp to convert to mono, one speaker does not do it.

 

[drlowmu]

Hello Siddharthdas :

YOU WRITE :

" Jeff, I must add also, that solid state does help modularize the problems a little bit and go after them one piece at a time. Your path looks like a much more elegant way of doing it - although I'd still have three questions (in theory, since I have no direct experience to compare) - dispersion, tube amps' sonic signature, cone damping! Thoughts? "

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I have not owned or bought any solid state amps in at least 40 years. My only recent hands - on SS experience was to sell two Nelson Pass ACA ( Amp Camp ) amps on eBay, one for my audio mentor, and another for a close audio friend. Both these guys use ALTEC or GPA ( modern ALTEC ) speakers, with DC SE amps, using either JJ 2A3-40 or KT-150 Finals.

They each independently tried out the ACA, and found it not to their liking, sadly, it just didn't cut the mustard VS what we build.

They each had me use my eBay account , ( due to my 100% Positive feedback record in 1,050 plus transactions ), to sell off their amps. If both of these experienced guys, whose audio judgement I can totally trust, are selling-off their personal ACAs, I will not even bother to hook either of their ACA amps up to my speakers. Our time on earth is limited.

My first audio mentor, Mr. Robert W. Fulton ( 1925-1988 ) in 1980 gave to me ( on my first DIY amp build ), two KEY amplifier design goals ,

" 1) make it vacuum tube, so hopefully, you do NOT have any negative feedback loops

2) try to have the Power Supply chokes 20 Ohms or less, if you can find them. ".

In 2022, I'd add,

" two vacuum tube amplification stages only,

their gains multiplying to about 400,

dual 5U4GBs,

and ONLY build directly coupled circuits . "


Today we all use 6 Ohm Hammond 159ZA chokes. Four Ohm wideband chokes are next on our drawing board, possibly for late 2023.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

You have an E.E. degree. Not I. Often trained people, as participants in this type of thread, will theorize - till they are blue in the face. I am only concerned with what works and sounds best, ... and finding something that I can afford to obtain. I usually have to DIY my audio things, modding or building from-scratch, to ever afford / obtain the performance level I seek.

Have fun. I am.

'Am designing and executing 2 inch by two inch wood bracing, to be EXTERNALLY screwed and GE Silicone glued, to both of each enclosure's two rear panels, of my stock A7-8's. ( 825 enclosures ). This added wood bracing is placed all the way on the back side of the enclosures, no one usually sees them.

Jeff Medwin

 

[siddharthdas]

Hello Siddharthdas :

YOU WRITE :

" Jeff, I must add also, that solid state does help modularize the problems a little bit and go after them one piece at a time. Your path looks like a much more elegant way of doing it - although I'd still have three questions (in theory, since I have no direct experience to compare) - dispersion, tube amps' sonic signature, cone damping! Thoughts? "

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I have not owned or bought any solid state amps in at least 40 years. My only recent hands - on SS experience was to sell two Nelson Pass ACA ( Amp Camp ) amps on eBay, one for my audio mentor, and another for a close audio friend. Both these guys use ALTEC or GPA ( modern ALTEC ) speakers, with DC SE amps, using either JJ 2A3-40 or KT-150 Finals.

They each independently tried out the ACA, and found it not to their liking, sadly, it just didn't cut the mustard VS what we build.

They each had me use my eBay account , ( due to my 100% Positive feedback record in 1,050 plus transactions ), to sell off their amps. If both of these experienced guys, whose audio judgement I can totally trust, are selling-off their personal ACAs, I will not even bother to hook either of their ACA amps up to my speakers. Our time on earth is limited.

My first audio mentor, Mr. Robert W. Fulton ( 1925-1988 ) in 1980 gave to me ( on my first DIY amp build ), two KEY amplifier design goals ,

" 1) make it vacuum tube, so hopefully, you do NOT have any negative feedback loops

2) try to have the Power Supply chokes 20 Ohms or less, if you can find them. ".

In 2022, I'd add,

" two vacuum tube amplification stages only,

their gains multiplying to about 400,

dual 5U4GBs,

and ONLY build directly coupled circuits . "


Today we all use 6 Ohm Hammond 159ZA chokes. Four Ohm wideband chokes are next on our drawing board, possibly for late 2023.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

You have an E.E. degree. Not I. Often trained people, as participants in this type of thread, will theorize - till they are blue in the face. I am only concerned with what works and sounds best, ... and finding something that I can afford to obtain. I usually have to DIY my audio things, modding or building from-scratch, to ever afford / obtain the performance level I seek.

Have fun. I am.

'Am designing and executing 2 inch by two inch wood bracing, to be EXTERNALLY screwed and GE Silicone glued, to both of each enclosure's two rear panels, of my stock A7-8's. ( 825 enclosures ). This added wood bracing is placed all the way on the back side of the enclosures, no one usually sees them.

Jeff Medwin

To your point though @drlowmu anything that "for the listener" reproduces the "illusion of live music" is sufficient. The rest is just noise . If your setup does that for you to the exclusion of everything else, all of us would be so lucky to share some of your pleasure. As for the rest of us - hope we can find our own mojo

 

[arj]

To your point though @drlowmu anything that "for the listener" reproduces the "illusion of live music" is sufficient. The rest is just noise . If your setup does that for you to the exclusion of everything else, all of us would be so lucky to share some of your pleasure. As for the rest of us - hope we can find our own mojo

I like the ones in bold. I do follow that line of thought for my setup as well..."real sounding illusion" especially since recordings of music you may like may not be real sounding in reality..but if the system can reproduce that with the right dynamics/tone/ etc etc and make an illusion of live 3D staged music which sounds good to ones ear, the path will be good

Well done tubes do that well and so do really very well done SS.

 

[drlowmu]

To your point though @drlowmu anything that "for the listener" reproduces the "illusion of live music" is sufficient. The rest is just noise . If your setup does that for you to the exclusion of everything else, all of us would be so lucky to share some of your pleasure. As for the rest of us - hope we can find our own mojo

Hi,

Steve Guttenberg who does those on-line audiophile videos, and was a movie projectionist in NYC for 25 years, once described the experience of a big two -way A7 type system as " if the listener is breathing the same air, inside the recording venue, as the musician ". I sense that now - also.

It took me 72 years ( 2016 ) to develop my own, as you call it " mojo. " Life on earth is relatively short. Why waste time and tons of money searching, when I am handing to you on a platter, a proven way, confirmed in my posted video by Guttenberg and Herb Reichert, to have it ??????? ( Post #3, mine, in this Thread, their 2022 video ...as Herb says ........... " Two-way horns ". )

An ALTEC VOTT A7-8 DOES take proper set up, to play at a high level, satisfactory to me, in one's room. I can start to cover such tips, IF there are HFV FMs interested in reading of my journey of discovery ( 2014 to 2022, with ALTEC 515bs and 802Ds. ) .

The amplifier to speaker wiring details, are already fully disclosed in this year's m22759 HFV thread. Fully detailed. No one but Hari in all of India, seems to have built them to hear. I am patient.

Jeff

BTW, the 3 HY choke in Herb Reichert's Flesh and Blood 300B amp, schematic shown in that video, was instigated back then - by me. It was 3 HY at 24 Ohms, fully potted, as close as I could find surplus priced at $7.00 each, from " Fair Radio Sales ". Mr. Fulton in 1980 wanted " 20 Ohms or less if you can find it ", and I settled then upon 24 Ohms - at 3 HY. We could say I introduced Herbie into Mr. Fulton's Low DCR guidance back then !!

Then , In 1989, we have the lovely " Figure of Merit of a Power Supply " letter from E.E. Dean, Dr. Charles A. Halijak to me. Shared by me on HFV again below , for ANYONE to learn from. All about low DCR in tube audio amps.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl...+figure+of+merit+of+a+power+supply&r=&session=





1989


Dear Jeffrey,


This letter is concerned with the power supply and the use of chokes.


A choke must have some internal resistance and its non-standard figure of merit is the ratio R over L. The best choke is the one with the smallest figure of merit and the best power supply has the least series resistance. It is not too difficult to obtain R over L = 10 but one can easily obtain R over L = 30 or more. The latter should be avoided but the ongoing shows that in a way it is unavoidable.


The choke input filter controls the diode by timing and not by ohmic losses. ( jm: current vs: voltage waveforms) The best place for a choke is at the input and the worst place is at the other end of a power supply filter chain because resistances tend to be higher there.


Suppose we start with your case and R over L = 10. When diode ( 5U4GB) and transformer resistances are taken into account we have :


15 ( choke ) + 70 ( rectifier ) + 70 ( power transformer resistances )
------------------------------------------------------------------- = 103
1.5 ( HY )


( the 70 ohm power transformer resistance is a guess )


If four 5U4GB are placed in parallel one has :


15 + (0.25 ) ( 70 ) + 70
__________________ = 68
1.5


Both figures of merit are way above the original 10 but your listening experiment told you that 68 was alright; this actual figure of merit is the best you can do because the largest power transformer was used and the smallest resistance available choke was used. You can see that stock power supplies are not anywhere near being the best cases






*. Most tube and transistor electronic engineers are unconscious about power supplies, but good.

• Also the best cases need not have zero internal resistance - a utopian goal. One strives for minimal non-zero resistance !!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Henry, on the subjective side, below is what Audio Consulting of Switzerland says about their four and a half ohm DCR @ 10 HY choke, from their literature, note their wording "one optimum" and "only way to make real progress":



"Get micro and macro dynamics out of your amplifier's power supply. Get the power into the music!


First we would like to explain our general philosophy :


There always is one optimum for a given problem.
It costs tremendous amounts of time to find it, but this is the only way to make real progress.


Jeff writes 10-2019 :


Dr. Halijak would have Stancor custom make chokes for him, rated 1 Hy at 8 Ohms, in the 1980s.

This that follows is advertising of Low DCR Ls from a High End Supplier in Europe, maybe Scandanavia or that area North:




“ Low DCR plays a key role in getting life-like dynamics out of an amplifier.

We have noticed that the lower the DCR gets, whether in a SE OPT of in a power supply choke, the more micro-information the system is able to provide.




We have gone as low as 4.5 Ohms for a 10 Hy choke that provides incredible sonic results when used in tube amplifiers.

The 16 Hy / 16 Ohms model is also very good, and maybe more reasonable when it comes to weight and size than the previous one.

More classical chokes of 30 to 50 Hy and 105 Ohms DCR may also be offered."

 

[sachinchavan 15865]

The discussion is on dynamics reproduced by the speakers. But since dynamics has such a big impact on our enjoyment of the music, I’d also like to side-step a bit and point out the significant differences in dynamics in the recorded media.

In general, whenever I’ve compared versions, I’ve found:

1. Original issues of records/albums have better dynamics than later ones. Perhaps this happens during remastering where the engineer compromises dynamics for other aspects (like loudness or separation etc… I am not sure)

2. Vinyl (analog) > CD > Streaming when it comes to dynamics. Surprising, as CD allows higher DR, but for some reason the CD masters are made to sound more even and hence flatter. But why streaming sounds more lifeless than CD is something difficult to decipher. May be the masters the streaming companies get from the publishers are not ripped well?

In short, it won’t be productive if one invests in a speaker with high dynamic reproduction ability but say streams his/her music. One might as we get an equal/better result listening to vinyl (on analog systems) /vinyl rips (on digital systems) on speakers with average dynamic ability.

No wonder a senior FM like @prem who has highly dynamic speakers is so particular about the source material (mostly first le second issues on vinyl)! That way you get to experience as close to a real-life dynamic experience as you can at home.

 

[Kannan]

But why streaming sounds more lifeless than CD is something difficult to decipher

the pitfall lies I think in the nature of streaming itself and not in the music file. try to play the same file offline (as most streaming apps allow offline playback from within the app by downloading the track). In well recorded racks, the differences between streaming the file and offline playback is palpable at times.
Regarding differences between Vinyl and digital files, I prefer digital.

 

[drlowmu]

Do keep in mind that dynamic range, timbre and many other attributes can be done with a Mono amplifier-speaker system.

IMO, if one invests in 2 of EVERTHING, along the Entire Audio chain, ie a Stereo Setup, sound staging is crucially important ....

Dear IndianEars,

I have had a very interesting experience with audio, with a mono speaker last week. On 12-12, I removed my ALTEC 515B ( a classic vintage woofer ) and installed a later model ( below ) , of which, I only own one driver.





It took me three full days of concentrated grueling work to get this new ALTEC woofer ( above ) fully optimized to the ALTEC A7 " 825" enclosure, the room, and to my satisfaction.

The 2021 Stereo 6005 amp with a single 6005 Finals tube, did not have enough power and low impedance to play the above photographed woofer, rated BTW at 104.5 dB per Watt in my enclosure !!! ( I " had" to evaluate this driver, first for for myself and others. ) I paralleled my stereo amp, and drove it as a mono amp, with JUST the left channel's input feeding into the circuit. See hookup :


( yes Eric, I cut-off all the tie wraps !! , Twisting the m22759/11 TRIOS one turn per inch, is next !!!! )

Two 6005s, heard crudely paralleled as above, was much better for the woofer, ( and it gave me a fore-taste of 2023's TRIPLE 6005 ! ). " The Dennis Triple / FSHS "

Here is what I heard, that surprised me, listening about 15 feet away. The mono A7-8 did the left channel playback just as though I was listening in stereo, the way it laid out the instrument placements as in the original stereo recording!!! In a small room, it played the stage left, up to 15 feet off the side of the mono A7-8 !!! And about 7 feet off the right side, it played stage right !!! This was ONLY mono playback of left channel information and instruments, of course. But so clearly and precisely orientated spatially, across and front to back in my living room, as though it was in stereo.

Indian Ears, I had NAILED the adjustment of the speaker enclosure, to the new woofer with a brand new speaker base I had developed in early December see below, it is highly effective. The enclosure, and it's woofer, was OPTIMIZED in position, to get the most performance from the new driver, for it's evaluation.



- - - - - - - - - - Vintage 515B driver is installed above, a front-of-cone photo , 2 Motors' voice coils are time-aligned - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

So surprisingly to me was this precise well beyond the speaker spreading of space, in mono playback of instruments, with a single speaker fed the left channel only of a stereo recording.

1) I do not think this is normal. maybe I am wrong.

2) Could the industrial-built ALTEC 802 tweeter compression driver, and likewise woofer driver, be capable of this uniquely ? The motors on both drivers, are huge VS consumer speakers. And time aligned to each other.

3) Could it be also from the new ( 2021 ) paralleled 6005 amp, with LSES main power supply and QUADRUPLE B+ passive filters to the driver's Ra and the Final 6005's G2 ??????????

4) Could it be my newly developed speaker base, which makes for a great " out of the box" experience when precision adjusted ? I know this !

5) Could it be a combination of 2) and 3 ) and 4) above ???

IndianEars, I just have never experienced this precision stereo placement ( front to back also )............ and from a MONO speaker.

What do you ( or others ) suppose is going on?? A mystery to me, for now. But this is / was FUN to experience !

Jeff

 

[sbg]

... This was ONLY mono playback of left channel information and instruments, of course. But so clearly and precisely orientated spatially, across and front to back in my living room, as though it was in stereo.
...
.... to the new woofer with a brand new speaker base I had developed in early December see below, it is highly effective. The enclosure, and it's woofer, was OPTIMIZED in position, to get the most performancefrom the new driver, for it's evaluation.
...
So surprisingly to me was this precise well beyond the speaker spreading of space, in mono playback of instruments, with a single speaker fed the left channel only of a stereo recording.
...
1) I do not think this is normal. maybe I am wrong.
...

I'm , In my personal Opinion too think , this just cannot be normal et al.
again, maybe your are wrong.

...
Reading again. I think, Possibly , you are wrong.

Possibly , the Room design is just not the normal, which, in my opinion accentuates the said speaker design working on one channel but the room acoustics design decodes as an Atmos decoder or the like. Or looks like if I'm missing to understand something like, if Molecular engineering too is involved.



Footnote to thy myself :
Never purchase or design speaker using any Altec for now!

Do consider, that I'm just with these basic info started off about 8-10 years ago + the with Current WWW schooling... nothing serious here .


... Can we continue with ...The ABC of speakers.

 

[siddharthdas]

Hi,

Steve Guttenberg who does those on-line audiophile videos, and was a movie projectionist in NYC for 25 years, once described the experience of a big two -way A7 type system as " if the listener is breathing the same air, inside the recording venue, as the musician ". I sense that now - also.

It took me 72 years ( 2016 ) to develop my own, as you call it " mojo. " Life on earth is relatively short. Why waste time and tons of money searching, when I am handing to you on a platter, a proven way, confirmed in my posted video by Guttenberg and Herb Reichert, to have it ??????? ( Post #3, mine, in this Thread, their 2022 video ...as Herb says ........... " Two-way horns ". )

An ALTEC VOTT A7-8 DOES take proper set up, to play at a high level, satisfactory to me, in one's room. I can start to cover such tips, IF there are HFV FMs interested in reading of my journey of discovery ( 2014 to 2022, with ALTEC 515bs and 802Ds. ) .

The amplifier to speaker wiring details, are already fully disclosed in this year's m22759 HFV thread. Fully detailed. No one but Hari in all of India, seems to have built them to hear. I am patient.

Jeff

BTW, the 3 HY choke in Herb Reichert's Flesh and Blood 300B amp, schematic shown in that video, was instigated back then - by me. It was 3 HY at 24 Ohms, fully potted, as close as I could find surplus priced at $7.00 each, from " Fair Radio Sales ". Mr. Fulton in 1980 wanted " 20 Ohms or less if you can find it ", and I settled then upon 24 Ohms - at 3 HY. We could say I introduced Herbie into Mr. Fulton's Low DCR guidance back then !!

Then , In 1989, we have the lovely " Figure of Merit of a Power Supply " letter from E.E. Dean, Dr. Charles A. Halijak to me. Shared by me on HFV again below , for ANYONE to learn from. All about low DCR in tube audio amps.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl...+figure+of+merit+of+a+power+supply&r=&session=





1989


Dear Jeffrey,


This letter is concerned with the power supply and the use of chokes.


A choke must have some internal resistance and its non-standard figure of merit is the ratio R over L. The best choke is the one with the smallest figure of merit and the best power supply has the least series resistance. It is not too difficult to obtain R over L = 10 but one can easily obtain R over L = 30 or more. The latter should be avoided but the ongoing shows that in a way it is unavoidable.


The choke input filter controls the diode by timing and not by ohmic losses. ( jm: current vs: voltage waveforms) The best place for a choke is at the input and the worst place is at the other end of a power supply filter chain because resistances tend to be higher there.


Suppose we start with your case and R over L = 10. When diode ( 5U4GB) and transformer resistances are taken into account we have :


15 ( choke ) + 70 ( rectifier ) + 70 ( power transformer resistances )
------------------------------------------------------------------- = 103
1.5 ( HY )


( the 70 ohm power transformer resistance is a guess )


If four 5U4GB are placed in parallel one has :


15 + (0.25 ) ( 70 ) + 70
__________________ = 68
1.5


Both figures of merit are way above the original 10 but your listening experiment told you that 68 was alright; this actual figure of merit is the best you can do because the largest power transformer was used and the smallest resistance available choke was used. You can see that stock power supplies are not anywhere near being the best cases






*. Most tube and transistor electronic engineers are unconscious about power supplies, but good.

• Also the best cases need not have zero internal resistance - a utopian goal. One strives for minimal non-zero resistance !!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Henry, on the subjective side, below is what Audio Consulting of Switzerland says about their four and a half ohm DCR @ 10 HY choke, from their literature, note their wording "one optimum" and "only way to make real progress":



"Get micro and macro dynamics out of your amplifier's power supply. Get the power into the music!


First we would like to explain our general philosophy :


There always is one optimum for a given problem.
It costs tremendous amounts of time to find it, but this is the only way to make real progress.


Jeff writes 10-2019 :


Dr. Halijak would have Stancor custom make chokes for him, rated 1 Hy at 8 Ohms, in the 1980s.

This that follows is advertising of Low DCR Ls from a High End Supplier in Europe, maybe Scandanavia or that area North:




“ Low DCR plays a key role in getting life-like dynamics out of an amplifier.

We have noticed that the lower the DCR gets, whether in a SE OPT of in a power supply choke, the more micro-information the system is able to provide.




We have gone as low as 4.5 Ohms for a 10 Hy choke that provides incredible sonic results when used in tube amplifiers.

The 16 Hy / 16 Ohms model is also very good, and maybe more reasonable when it comes to weight and size than the previous one.

More classical chokes of 30 to 50 Hy and 105 Ohms DCR may also be offered."

The trouble, Jeff, is that god is only experienced on ones own or perhaps in the physical company of someone who has. Here, the equivalent ihas to be the opportunity to audition the A7s in a hospitable home. So question - who has one in bangalore/Mumbai and is willing to have guests over to listen. Meanwhile. since all of us have done some god finding ourselves, I’d have to say that my subjective experiences have not entirely displeased me either. My own humble system that can play low distortion sound well past 100 db with uniform dispersion and incredible dynamics, is rather pleasurable and does deliver on the promise of recreating the illusion of live magic. So I am curious to experience the god of A7 but will not be entirely distraught if I were to settle for not experiencing A7 heaven. Meanwhile anyone got a set for the rest of us to experience?

 

[drlowmu]

Hi Siddharthdas,

The trouble, Jeff, is that god is only experienced on ones own or perhaps in the physical company of someone who has. Here, the equivalent ihas to be the opportunity to audition the A7s in a hospitable home. So question - who has one in bangalore/Mumbai and is willing to have guests over to listen. Meanwhile. since all of us have done some god finding ourselves, I’d have to say that my subjective experiences have not entirely displeased me either. My own humble system that can play low distortion sound well past 100 db with uniform dispersion and incredible dynamics, is rather pleasurable and does deliver on the promise of recreating the illusion of live magic. So I am curious to experience the god of A7 but will not be entirely distraught if I were to settle for not experiencing A7 heaven. Meanwhile anyone got a set for the rest of us to experience?

Truthfully, there is NO place you can hear this, at the level I discuss, in India.

I would image 98% of all existing A7-8 set-ups world-wide, will not be near the playback level I have described, and experienced in my home most recently. ( Since only 12-15-22. )

It starts with the tube amplifier playing with proper on-time peak dynamics.

Possibly 99.8 percent of existing tube amplifiers are conventionally designed, ( and are thus mis-designed ), unable to do this. I have already explained herein, it takes a L.S.E.S. power supply configuration, as in Hari Iyer's KT88 SE DC amp, the only L.S.E.S amp in all of India. ( Note : I do not know all aspects of his implementation, as his differs a bit. )

Next topic is the transmission of the music signal, via wiring, amplifier to crossover.

That takes a "TRIO" wire combination, 12+12+14 AWG, m22759/11 at 114 1/4 inches, polarities no-touch. Anything less, at virtually any price ( so far ) , will very likely be somewhat of a sonic degrade. The better the equipment, the more evident this TRIO's contribution will be !!

I truly have " paid my audio hobby dues " over the years, traveling extensively to audio shows, etc., and I simply share the best that I know of, up here on HFV .

I developed close relationships over my lifetime with two Audio Mentors, manufacturers who represented " the best of the best in audio ", at least - in my mind, at the time. My present mentor was IN the movie theater business over several decades, and has worked hands-on with about 450 ALTEC A7-8 systems - as per our conversations. How is that for experience??

In the coming two to three years, G-d willing, I hope to help a few good people to set up A7-8s very nicely. I am hoping they carry-on my life-long quest.

I hope this response of mine sheds light on your post's questions. I am simply an experienced amateur. DIY amp builder. Non - technical. All is shared herein " IME , IMHO ".

Jeff Medwin

PS: Photo taken TODAY 12-20-22.. Newest EXTERNAL ( only ) bracing to the rear panels of my own ALTEC A7 / 825 VOTT enclosures. Work in process. Being done to improve speaker's pulse response. Today I have all the needed external brace spans cut to length.

Thinking of pulses such as in orchestral crescendos ....... grand piano, or great recordings of drum solos :




I should do a THREAD on my unique ALTEC A7-8 Journey. 2014 to 2022. It could be helpful to owners of same.

 

[drlowmu]

More for Siddharthdas , Speakers and Dynamics :

IME and IMHO :, The best three speakers in the history of audio, are all professional types, not consumer types.

Klangfilm ...pre WW2....virtually non existent today, German movie-industry types, typically.

ALE , currently made, existing from Japan, very costly, wonderful. Reminiscent of ALTEC in ways.

GPA or Great Plains Audio, as designed / as made by engineer Bill Hanuschack, essentially modern improvements on ALTEC, his previous employer., expensive....... but VERY GOOD.

I am retired now, and of modest means, so I can not quite afford GPA, ( the least costly of the above ). Instead, I patiently " bottom fish " with various used ALTEC professional drivers, bought " right ". as far as price.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

As for my prior comments about MOST amps losing dynamic contrasting, inside the amp circuit, BEFORE ever reaching the speaker, ( and how we avoid this in our tube amps and wiring), I will introduce you to my audio Mentor, Dennis Fraker. The following is a write up by Herb Reichert, from the 2016 RMAF ( Denver , Colorado ) audio show.

It is pretty amazing to read this, because Dennis is a small Manufacturer, and did NOT advertise in Stereophile magazine, so there is no incentive for Herb as a reviewer to give Dennis ANY mention. Scroll down the URL below, until you spot Dennis' two red mono 2A3 amps, and his green attenuator between them, a PHOTO, and then please READ what Herb writes !!!

RMAF 2016: Sunday at the Show with Herb

On the day before RMAF 2016 began, German audio manufacturer Elac announced that they have entered an agreement to acquire Peter Madnick's American company, Audio Alchemy. When I heard this news, it felt good and right. Between them, Elac and Audio Alchemy are turning out a large portion of the...

www.stereophile.com

I show you this because Dennis is my Audio Mentor.

Also Siddharthdas, before we ever met, you were theoretically inclined to dismiss tube amplifiers in terms of dynamics and highest performance. Herb is telling us otherwise, ............isn't he? Herb's quoted 2016 show writing :

" Best sound at the show "

" Dennis' home built audio gear plays " better music better " than all other exhibitors combined "

"Every year...............................................sound more focused, dynamic, and easy flowing than the last ".


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Continue on with your theory thread as a logical and respectable E.E. which I sense you are, and have fun.

I'm here pointing out non -theory, what actually gets the listening job done, in late 2022, to the Queen's taste!!!

Jeff ( Understand - no commercial intent on my part, JUST discussing best sound possible today ) I want as much of it, as I can possibly afford


PS: ' got all those newly cut wood ( A7 speaker ) braces, from the post just above, painted flat black tonight. Black #6 2 inch wood screws are to be used next, with GE Silicone 2.