All amplifiers will sound different as they are built using different components and topologies. Even cables sound different (although more controversial than amps). IME there is also a genres of music associated with any amp. One amp may sound excellent with one genre and mediocre with another. It's hard to find an amp that does it all and excels at all kind of music, don't know if such device exist.
Sound signature of amplifiers ..
- Thread starter rkumarblr
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availlyrics
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My point is if someone dosen't likes sound of 2 more "IC opamps" in the buffer/ gain stage of the volume control then he/she will definitely not like the sound of majority of our music that has passed thru numerous such opamps used in the recording chain, as instead of 2X "grey" , they will sound 100X or 1000X "grey".
In such a case, nothing will sound better than a totally unplugged live music band- no mics, mixers, amps, sound monitors or PA systems, so as to avoid those grey sounding IC opamps which are used profusely used in such audio equipments, as these will definitely ruin the sanctity of pure listening pleasure.
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reignofchaos
Well-Known Member
What you are saying goes completely against the basis of hifi where the idea is to keep the signal as pure as possible. What is gone is gone - nothing in that is in our control. What is in our control is the playback chain.
Opamps have very high open loop gain and the only way to make them fit a particular circuit is to use a extremely high levels of feedback to fit the purpose. This causes the grey sound and is especially audible where the signal is very low level like phono preamps. In these scenarios, identifying which is an opamp phono can be done even in a blind test - it is so obvious. In digital circuits, it is less obvious but still audible if you compare say a dac with a well designed discrete circuit vs one where the designer didn't bother and just put an opamp buffer.
availlyrics
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The definition of HiFi is high faithfulness in reproducing an amplified signal that resembles as close as possible to the input signal. A direct coupled IC opamp or SS will have more accuracy in reproducing the signal across 20-20KHz BW then a tube (coupling capacitor, output tranformer, non-linearity, slower slew rate, even harmonic distortions,etc.). But lets agree to disagree, as this will lead to endless Tube vs SS debate
Agreed, Negative feedback is used to limit very high open loop BW , reduce gain, lower distortion and stable operation. . There’s another audiophile myth that high feedback is somehow bad, but trying to get comparable open loop gain in a discrete design typically creates challenging stability issues.
But I still can't get the "grey" sound analogy as I only do/see objective measurments on a scope which has ability to show figures and waveform shapes but can't measure subjective terms such as grey, laidback, dark, open, etc.
100% agreed , your choice is SET & mine is IC Opamp/ SS. So different paths , same goal. To each his own.
If we were from same city , I would difinitely be open for a blind test .
IMHO NE5532 phono preamp would triumph over any discreet designs (long feedback path, difficulty in component matching , bias stability, etc) . But again lets agree to disagree.
Ofcourse discreet has some advantages over IC opamps when the appplication demands higher voltage swing with more current drive with better thermal mangement. Otherwise for low powered application, NE5532 phono preamp or as a buffer will sound transparent with lower noise floor in any blind tests when compared to max 65dB SNR of vinyl + pop scratch noise.
Sorry if I sounded bit sarcastic in my previous comments and lets continue to contribute positively
word. I have performed enough tests which totally goes against what audiophiles claim in our own forum regarding tubes, class a, class d, power cables, interconnects. Looks like what audiophiles here is more to do with the cost, fame, looks and urban legend associated with the equipment rather than the actual performance.
square_wave
Well-Known Member
To get a valve amplifier to perform well especially if they are the low watt variety using 300b or 845 type valves, you need to assemble a system around it. Then "most" SS amplifiers will become paper weights
It is all about system synergy. If done right, the result will blow your mind.
Seems it's like "Dump on Cadence" season. Have been using a VA 1.0 amp with Avita speakers for the past 22 years, and am one happy camper. So, Chill, folks!
Back in the 80s, Stereo Review magazine published a long detailed cover story about a double-blind AB-X test they'd conducted using 50 volunteers and 8 diff amplifiers ranging from a $200 receiver to $8000 OTL monoblocks. Each participant listened to multiple music samples across all 8 amplifiers with AB-X switching, and documented their preferences. Using statistical modelling, they concluded that for that particular sample of participants, and for that particular set of equipment, "All Amplifiers sound the same"
The story, naturally, caused a huge uproar in the audiophile community, which labelled it as rubbish for all the usual reasons: the inherent flaws in AB-X testing; the amateur participants - not critical listeners; the same speakers in use; different input and output impedances in the test amps, etc. The controversy soon died down.
BUT, while we know that all amplifiers exhibit a sound signature that is tightly coupled to the speakers they are paired with, there remains a grain of truth in the SR article. Which is, for a casual listener, the sound one hears is more determined by the Source and the Speaker than by the amplifier. Yes, the amplifier matters, but much less so than your speakers, turntable, cartridge, DAC, room acoustics. It takes a high level of quality - and matching - of all those components to zoom in on the nuances of your amplifier. Those nuances are there alright, but tend to be overstated, especially in comparison to those of other components.
Back in the 80s, Stereo Review magazine published a long detailed cover story about a double-blind AB-X test they'd conducted using 50 volunteers and 8 diff amplifiers ranging from a $200 receiver to $8000 OTL monoblocks. Each participant listened to multiple music samples across all 8 amplifiers with AB-X switching, and documented their preferences. Using statistical modelling, they concluded that for that particular sample of participants, and for that particular set of equipment, "All Amplifiers sound the same"
The story, naturally, caused a huge uproar in the audiophile community, which labelled it as rubbish for all the usual reasons: the inherent flaws in AB-X testing; the amateur participants - not critical listeners; the same speakers in use; different input and output impedances in the test amps, etc. The controversy soon died down.
BUT, while we know that all amplifiers exhibit a sound signature that is tightly coupled to the speakers they are paired with, there remains a grain of truth in the SR article. Which is, for a casual listener, the sound one hears is more determined by the Source and the Speaker than by the amplifier. Yes, the amplifier matters, but much less so than your speakers, turntable, cartridge, DAC, room acoustics. It takes a high level of quality - and matching - of all those components to zoom in on the nuances of your amplifier. Those nuances are there alright, but tend to be overstated, especially in comparison to those of other components.
My experience has been that all things being equal, the amplifier has the least influence on the SQ of the signal. When I said all things being equal I refer to the power, ability to handle loads based on impedance swings etc. I think a lot of the discussion that this power amp sounds better than that is simply because, the comparison is not of equal specs. For instance, if a speaker impedance dips to 2 ohms, say in certain bass frequencies, and one is comparing 2 amps., the amp that cannot handle loads into that dip is definitely going to sound 1)anemic 2) distorted etc. - (depending on if one is able to discern the difference - read my next sentence). And if one does compare amplifiers of equal spec. then the difference between the 2 will require a very highly resolving setup (not expensive - but resolving), to differentiate the nuances. Mind you when I say specs., I mean specs. of similar topologies. I wouldn't compare a SET tube to a class D and say one is better because then a whole set of different parameters come into play. In regards to class - such as class A, AB, D, again I have experienced that provided all things are equal - then the difference is not as pronounced. I agree to the fact - that a lot of times - cost, brand name, weight, size seem to play a bigger role in seeing rather than hearing non existent sq improvements. And the biggest issue I have is - the synergy issue - so often people say this amp is great etc., just because perhaps their system is more synergistic with said amp., so just to make a blanket pronunciation is erroneous, as that synergy can be heard with similar equipment, including the room acoustics. And lastly these synergies are very highly subjective tuned to ones preference and will not be the same for all.
Cheers,
Sid
Cheers,
Sid
heliumflight
Well-Known Member
I agree "Tubes" are the Queen and SS are Kings and the Queen kills SS for breakfast.Then "most" SS amplifiers will become paper weights
It is all about system synergy. If done right, the result will blow your mind.
Stereo HiFi Rig: Cambridge Audio Cxn v2 + Cyrus6 / Elekit tu 8730 300b + ASI Live line power cable + ASI Live line Reference IC + Townsend Isolda speaker cables + Linn Keilidh speakers
Tubes are hot and attractive, no wonder men are lured.
square_wave
Well-Known Member
Lol! One can assemble an exceptional system using either type of amplifier design, provided the approach is meticulously tailored to extract the best from the specific design. The overall system approach is crucial; simply swapping one type of amplifier for another within a system does not yield meaningful conclusions.
The various approaches have garnered dedicated followings, each with its own unique perspective. From a subjective standpoint, these methods are deeply personal. However, they are also underpinned by intricate technical foundations too.
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