The DAC Scam?

[Analogous]

Came across this rant. He seems quite knowledgeable about audio circuitry and audio mastering matters even as he exudes certainty in his views on DACs.
He is scornful of NoS and any measurable distortion, asserting that such designs can not sound good; that its expectation bias.
I do feel he has a point on the outrageous pricing of some DACs. But then no one is forcing anyone else to make such choices.

I have often heard/read that “it’s not the DAC chip that makes the difference as much as how it’s implemented “
I realise I have no idea what this means!

 

[ajuvignesh]

In this streaming era, in a digital mixing console/interface, Analog to digital converter is more important. It is the one that converts analog mic signal to digital signal. And hence, it is extremely important. The role of DAC in a digital console is to send analog signals to monitor. Yes, it is important to have maximum detail for mixing and mastering. However, it is extremely costly to have better of the best DACs in mixing console or interfaces. One should note that at the end of mixing/mastering, the final mix that is taken out is in digital format and it doesn't have to pass through the DAC of the console/interface. Hence, it will still contain the details, nuances of music that was not reproduced by the DAC connected to the monitor during the actual mixing and mastering process. So, with a great dac at home HIFI system, these nuances can be listened. Hence, the "what more will you hear in home HIFI than a studio which doesn't use $5000 dac" is a moot point, in my opinion.

The same chip used in two different DACs will highly unlikely to have same sound or same quality as the implementation of the chip, design, power supply and most importantly, the output stage is different. it is not really logical to think the SMSL D300 that costs $400 and Luxman CD player that costs $16,000 which uses the same ROHM chip to sound the same.

If all the dacs sound the same, why several chip companies exists in the first place? And, if all the dacs sound the same, why can't the company design it once and for ever? Why thay always come with a new but better chips? If all dacs sound the same, what is the point of spending millions of money for R&D to develop a dac which would still sound the same?

He must be from the ASR crowd who thinks an Apple $10 dongle and $1000 Denafrips/Topping sound the same as per measurement. I usually give second look at the things ASR community avoids and scared to purchase whatever they recommend.

 

[Analogous]

If all the dacs sound the same, why several chip companies exists in the first place? And, if all the dacs sound the same, why can't the company design it once and for ever? Why thay always come with a new but better chips? If all dacs sound the same, what is the point of spending millions of money for R&D to develop a dac which would still sound the same?

I think this is what he is questioning…

He must be from the ASR crowd who thinks an Apple $10 dongle and $1000 Denafrips/Topping sound the same as per measurement. I usually give second look at the things ASR community avoids and scared to purchase whatever they recommend.

Probably not.
Listening to his video again, he doesn’t say a cheap DAC sounds better. He does say DACs using the same or similar chips from the same chip manufacturer sound the same or not different even as some DAC makers market and sell them at very high prices.

 

[reignofchaos]

Entire video is an incoherent rant. Other than pricing bit, nothing makes sense.

 

[bornfi]

I have often heard/read that “it’s not the DAC chip that makes the difference as much as how it’s implemented “
I realise I have no idea what this means!

Pick a chip and study the pins layout of it. You will find that there are clearly pins for digital in and analog outs. So, technically, you can simply connect the digital in to these pins without having anything in between and then connect analog outs to your amp without having anything between pins and the amp but I do not know how that will sound. So what goes between source and pins and pins and amp is what the implementation is.

I have experimented that a change in the resistor's brand changes the sound, so imagine, the number of variables we have.

 

[Analogous]

imagine, the number of variables we have

Absolutely. And Let’s not forget the rest of the chain that is required to actually make the sounds.
The only point that he makes in the video that to me seems worthy of attention is about the prices

 

[bornfi]

seems worthy of attention is about the prices

I could have given importance to this variable, but I did not because if I say that the price is not right, then, I do not know what the right price should be. Pricing is a tricky subject for me but I know for sure that at least for some of the elated brands we know, a very big chunk of retail price is allocated/used for logistics post the product is packed and ready to ship and it is most often, if not, in all cases is more than what manufacturers get. In my opinion which is based on what I know about the kind of lifestyle these manufacturers maintain, the chunk that manufacturers get is fair while the chunk spent on the logistics (that includes profit margin) seems unfair to me. Let us see what others think.

 

[Kannan]

DAC is ofcourse not just about the chip, so goes amps that are based on FETs, there is power supply, are interlaying circuits, opamps and more that determine the final output.
That said, expensive DACs/streamers are most defenitely overpriced for what they offer in comparison to DACs/streamers that are well designed and in the normal price realms, but then the pricey ones have their own set of buyers. Such positioning weigh-in on almost all types of audio and video gadgets. One is bound to find all types of critics in this highly subjective hobby, but taking an infomed decision and remaining pragmatic is important in this hobby.

 

[square_wave]

Here is another by the same guy. I had come across this some time ago. His viewpoints are quite linear in nature. Looks like a guy who has never ventured beyond his beliefs and experimented to personally understand the Art behind hifi reproduction in the home environment. His target demographic is quite large so maybe it is working for him.

Pricing is determined by market dynamics and it is quite unfortunate that many such products are outrageously expensive.

 

[panditji]

https://www.farfetch.com/in/shopping/men/prada-logo-cotton-t-shirt-item-28928587.aspx

Which cotton do you think they use ? Or is it the implementation of the cotton in the sewing machines which makes it so expensive?
Also why not make the best white t-shirt once and for all using the best quality cotton ?

 

[arunvenkats]

He must be from the ASR crowd who thinks an Apple $10 dongle and $1000 Denafrips/Topping sound the same as per measurement. I usually give second look at the things ASR community avoids and scared to purchase whatever they recommend.

Assuming an apples to apples comparison (same input source and output sink) -- if scientifically correct measurements do show that a $10 device and a $1,000 device produce the same quality output, is that not simply the truth?

 

[panditji]

This discussion is akin to Atheists debating with religious scholars on the existence of God...

 

[ajuvignesh]

Assuming an apples to apples comparison (same input source and output sink) -- if scientifically correct measurements do show that a $10 device and a $1,000 device produce the same quality output, is that not simply the truth?

Then why does $10 and $1000 devices sound different? I have personally heard the difference between $50 dac and $400 dac.

 

[ajuvignesh]

I think this is what he is questioning…


Probably not.
Listening to his video again, he doesn’t say a cheap DAC sounds better. He does say DACs using the same or similar chips from the same chip manufacturer sound the same or not different even as some DAC makers market and sell them at very high prices.

Still, the sound won’t be same. There will be similarities but wont be the same

 

[reignofchaos]

This discussion is akin to Atheists debating with religious scholars on the existence of God...

What DAC does God use then?

 

[prem]

God has no problem. Whenever he feels like listening to a musician he calls them back to heaven

 

[panditji]

What DAC does God use then?

The Norse God uses Yggdrasil . Will have to check with the other ones as some are still stuck on Vinyl and are not moving ahead with the times ....

 

[arunvenkats]

Then why does $10 and $1000 devices sound different? I have personally heard the difference between $50 dac and $400 dac.

If scientifically correct measurements show both are producing the same quality output, then the difference is made in our head. Expectation bias (Placebo effect), Neurological changes in perception, Cultural and social conditioning, Cognitive dissonance reduction. These are all well documented ways in which our brains fool us.

BTW I am not talking about any $10 DAC and $1,000 DAC. I am only talking about both being tested under similar conditions.

I recently bought an audio DSP module from an Indian DIY'r I saw on Youtube. In the original Video he had used regular electrolytic capacitors in the output buffer circuit of the analog end as recommended by the original application note of the DSP chip. When I reached out to him he had sent me pictures of the board with surface mount capacitors (to be fair to him). Unfortunately I did not notice it and sent the payment. I have it with me but I have never used the DSP module till date because I know that the pretty famous ADAU1445 chip used in it (same series used in MiniDSP brand) is going to be wasted because of the output stage built around it.

 

[ajuvignesh]

If scientifically correct measurements show both are producing the same quality output, then the difference is made in our head. Expectation bias (Placebo effect), Neurological changes in perception, Cultural and social conditioning, Cognitive dissonance reduction. These are all well documented ways in which our brains fool us.

BTW I am not talking about any $10 DAC and $1,000 DAC. I am only talking about both being tested under similar conditions.

I recently bought an audio DSP module from an Indian DIY'r I saw on Youtube. In the original Video he had used regular electrolytic capacitors in the output buffer circuit of the analog end as recommended by the original application note of the DSP chip. When I reached out to him he had sent me pictures of the board with surface mount capacitors (to be fair to him). Unfortunately I did not notice it and sent the payment. I have it with me but I have never used the DSP module till date because I know that the pretty famous ADAU1445 chip used in it (same series used in MiniDSP brand) is going to be wasted because of the output stage built around it.

what do you mean by similar conditions?
I’m from mixing background and has always taught not to mix with what’s on the screen but to mix with what we hear.

Why do you think two different dacs with two different output stage sound the same? Im just curious.

 

[ajuvignesh]

Also. If all $10 and $1000 dacs sound the same, why measure it again and again? For example rme’s dac initially came with akm chip and now with ess. Amir measured both and has individual reviews. My question is, if all modern dacs sound the same, why measure it in the first place?
And this theory goes against saying akm is more smoother than ess generally. That itself means both sound different.