The effect of cables - A sane debate

[Kannan]

0.1Hz to 800KHz!!!??? Wow! Tube amp!!

Oops sorry, I listed the specs of the pre (SL1 is pre).
The amp model is CAT JL2 mkii, Not able to find too many details.

 

[sound_cycle]

If the amplifier design is unable to cope with such large impedance then of course it will respond to cable impedance variation. But then the amplifier cannot be trusted to deliver power faithfully corresponding to the input signal and input signal only

I'll bite

So what is your assertion

1. All amplifiers are crappy and cannot handle real world speakers with varying impedances
2. There is some very special, unidentified (in your post) amplifier that alone is capable of deliver power faithfully corresponding to the input signal and input signal only
3. nothing much too see here just truisms
4. none of the above i.e. I misunderstood what you are saying

As for the math only objective vs subjective please take a look at this article this article from which I quote

"​

​

If I was a pure subjectivist, here’s what I’d take from the objectivist side:​

1. You have no reproduced audio without science and the scientific method, and it’s worth learning more about this
   1. Those “huge” differences others are talking about may not be so huge at all, or they might even be cognitive bias
   2. Spending big is not always the answer when it comes to great sound—being more discerning may keep both your ears and wallet happy

If I was a pure objectivist, here’s what I’d take from the subjectivist side:​

1. Science hasn’t fully characterized everything, whether you’re talking perception, medicine, physics—question your own hypotheses and be open to revising your position
   1. No difference in perception to you may be significant to someone else with different perception—and cognitive bias cuts both ways
   2. Spending big on audio is a largely harmless pastime that doesn’t affect you—let them be, and concentrate on something that makes you happy

And to both sides:​

​

In a thousand years, when godlike AIs are unearthing the data-foundations of the Human Internet, they’ll be shaking their metaphorical heads at the silly stuff we get into arguments about. Audio isn’t a cure for cancer, it’s not a new physical particle, it’s not a hyperloop transport system. It’s a fun pastime that helps you enjoy music to its fullest.​

​

Sit back. Relax. Buy each other beers. Laugh at yourselves. Try something new. Ask questions. Read and digest. Interact and learn. Because, let’s face it, if we’re really here to share, and if everyone really has something to contribute, we should all be reading a whole lot more than writing. "​

ciao
gr

 

[jls001]

In a similar vein as the above post (via Keith):

 

[Hari Iyer]

i did some serious measurements on my entire setup measuring capacitance of my DAC + cable IC, Preamp DAC i/p, Preamp o/p capacitance, power amp i/p capacitance.

My findings are - By matching the capacitance ie. - if the driver (DAC) ouput capacitance + cable capacitance is approximately nearer to the input capacitance of the power amplifier then there is very less harshness, good transfer of signal from source to destination, lower reflection of signal in the transmission line and possible characteristic impedance matchin ( i dont have any model to prove but only my measurements and subjective listening for claim). The resistance and self inductance will be trival for a short run of cable and can be safely ignored.

For my setup - The DAC + cable interconnect capacitance is around 680pF and the amplier input capacitance is 700pF, This gave me the best sound in my setup till date.

Also when i connect the TT - the phono input cable from the Thorens has a capacitance of 160pF and the measured pre-amp o/p+ cable IC has a capacitance of 110pF and this gave me much balanced sound.

I am not sure if there is some psychoacoustic playing trick to my mind - but i am liking what i am hearing and thats all matters to me irrespective of any model or math underlying it. Period.

 

[keith_correa]

M
In the end if I hear a difference with my own ears I would not care what actual science teaches me or what others think and yes I believe in sound changing with cables
And that too with well made and we'll designed amplifiers and speakers

Nothing can be more true then what I get to hear with my own ears

I don't think ANYONE claimed cables don't affect sound. All I'm saying is that instead of sweating the finer details of parameters we need to learn how to read and apply them and then intelligently optimize them instead of the trial and error method where we are just spending time - of course that time wasting/spending is entirely one's prerogative.

I'll bite

So what is your assertion

1. All amplifiers are crappy and cannot handle real world speakers with varying impedances
2. There is some very special, unidentified (in your post) amplifier that alone is capable of deliver power faithfully corresponding to the input signal and input signal only
3. nothing much too see here just truisms
4. none of the above i.e. I misunderstood what you are saying

As for the math only objective vs subjective please take a look at this article this article from which I quote

"​

​

If I was a pure subjectivist, here’s what I’d take from the objectivist side:​

1. You have no reproduced audio without science and the scientific method, and it’s worth learning more about this
   1. Those “huge” differences others are talking about may not be so huge at all, or they might even be cognitive bias
   2. Spending big is not always the answer when it comes to great sound—being more discerning may keep both your ears and wallet happy

If I was a pure objectivist, here’s what I’d take from the subjectivist side:​

1. Science hasn’t fully characterized everything, whether you’re talking perception, medicine, physics—question your own hypotheses and be open to revising your position
   1. No difference in perception to you may be significant to someone else with different perception—and cognitive bias cuts both ways
   2. Spending big on audio is a largely harmless pastime that doesn’t affect you—let them be, and concentrate on something that makes you happy

And to both sides:​

​

In a thousand years, when godlike AIs are unearthing the data-foundations of the Human Internet, they’ll be shaking their metaphorical heads at the silly stuff we get into arguments about. Audio isn’t a cure for cancer, it’s not a new physical particle, it’s not a hyperloop transport system. It’s a fun pastime that helps you enjoy music to its fullest.​

​

Sit back. Relax. Buy each other beers. Laugh at yourselves. Try something new. Ask questions. Read and digest. Interact and learn. Because, let’s face it, if we’re really here to share, and if everyone really has something to contribute, we should all be reading a whole lot more than writing. "​

ciao
gr

Is your name Shashi Tharoor?

 

[rikhav]

I don't think ANYONE claimed cables don't affect sound. All I'm saying is that instead of sweating the finer details of parameters we need to learn how to read and apply them and then intelligently optimize them instead of the trial and error method where we are just spending time - of course that time wasting/spending is entirely one's prerogative.

Absolutely true
I agree with your approach of science helping fine tune whatever we heard is good with our ears rather then dismssing the finding

 

[keith_correa]

Also, just to clarify, when I say "driver" - I'm not referring to a loudspeaker.

There's a VERY good post on DIYA by the very knowledgeable, late AndrewT that explains how the output parameters of the source and input parameters of the driver should be used to calculate how your cable will have an effect. He doesn't explain in a context specific to cables but in the context of a passive pre-amp but the principle is the same.
Let me see if I can locate it and link to it.

 

[Ravindra Desai]

@sound_cycle and others,

1. If a sound system responds to changes in cables, to an extend that it goes from good to bad or vice versa, then it is a bad system. Bad in parts or whole is not that I want to get into. Now do you find such systems so easily in the market? No.

2. If there is a cable, connector, snake oil, that can cause improvement to one and every sound system, then it is worth looking into and it makes it special. Does one such item exist? No. If it does, then I guarantee you that there will be some definite math behind it.

Points 1 and 2 brings objectiveness to the topic. No?

About My Amplifier:

It was not relevant here, but since it was brought it up, I'll bite.

3. My Class-AB amplifier is unconditionally stable in short circuit condition. This has been demonstrated to many of our forum members.
Are there many in the market that have this feature? No. So Does it make my amplifier special? Yest it does!
This is an objective claim.

4. My Amplifier has the capability to take any low cost speaker and make it sound like 10X expensive one.
This is subjective claim. I understand.
But when I say:
My amplifier can use iWai 3" speakers and iWai 8" woofer and bring out details in movies and music to an extent that it will give branded AVRs a run for money...
and if this has been demonstrated to a few of our forum members, then my claim becomes objective.

My claim 4 further strengthens when I bring another low cost speaker like Ahuja 12" full range and make it deliver from 30Hz to 16+KHz!
How many sound systems in the market can pair up with (use my enclosure design, no problem) a speaker like Ahuja to an extent that it can match up with the best out there?
If mine does, then it makes my amplifier special.

Now, with two demonstrable examples, I can proudly claim that My amplifier is special and yes, it is!
Not just that, it becomes and example of what can be done with theory supported by math and some experience. No?


When a forum member claims that some technique, process, cable, connector or snake oil has given him good results, I believe him and even feel happy for him.
However, when one claims in a general sense that 'somethings improves sound' then it becomes subjective and there is no harm in me asking for proof in objective form to understand if its a one off case or a general claim especially when there are members who look up to others who have spent considerably more time here and tend to follow them.

Regards,

Ravindra.

 

[jls001]

So I removed the borrowed super tweeter from my speakers (TakeT Batpure, thanks VR!) and my bass is sounding way better

Yes, seriously. I didn't hear any degradation or improvement in the highs or upper highs but there was increased bass weight from the moment I put in the super tweeters. Bass weight would have been welcomed in certain situations but it came with a baggage of poor definition and loss of texture. I'm still at a loss as to why a super tweeter must affect the bass but I've inserted and taken them off a number of times and the observation has been consistent. This is probably similar to an improved midrange and highs when we improve our bass. May be....

In the last 10-14 days I had gone through some very interesting tweaks:

The initial trigger was of course Keith's Windows optimisation software which I had reported elsewhere. I'm now on version 2. Unfortunately I can't try versions 3 and 4 yet because of mismatch in the app's window size and my ancient PC monitor. But each version had been major leaps in performance and the scope of optimisations (the latest version allows one to define exactly how much memory one wants to allot to a process!). The improvements in sound has been nothing less than phenomenal.

I had to change my audio rack and I was faced with a much degraded sound. I realised that this was due to the toughened glass shelves of my rack. They are way too excitable. I needed serious damping. After many iterations of trying various combinations of foam rubber and cork sheet with the help of Rikhav, we've sort of arrived at a good thumb rule for what works for heavy power amps and what works for lighter gears. These combo has been tried on Rikhav's rack (very different from mine) as well as two other friends and each time they bring about substantial improvements in sound compared to bearing ball-based coupling, or other semi-soft couplings.

Then came along this crazy Doug Schroeder tweak....

A wild and fun ride it has been.

PS: I just doubled the IC from CDP to pre too and it is a substantial improvement like it has been in other parts of the chain.

 

[Hari Iyer]

The super tweeters would be masking the bass a bit more. Removing them opened up the bass by reducing compression of highs.

 

[IndianEars]

If I use a bathroom weighing scale to measure the weight of a feather, I would conclude that the feather has Zero weight.

Equipment used should be up to the task.

 

[Kannan]

If I use a bathroom weighing scale to measure the weight of a feather, I would conclude that the feather has Zero weight.

Equipment used should be up to the task.

Isn't this too subjective. It is better if you quantified.
Guess most of the contributors in this thread atleast have a pebble to weigh if not a rock or a mountain.

Many a times I have heard a rock weigh down a mountain.

@Ravindra Desai

This is the CAT JL2 amplifier that I have heard umpteen times with the CAT SL1 pre.



Listening to this combo is an experience in itself. Absolutely amazing fidelity and control of drivers.

I think the DIN5 connectors come with Naim ICs and Naim gear is known to work well with Naim cables

yeah..

they are normally used for naim source to naim amp connections

mine will be 2 RCA to DIN5 ( non naim cd player to naim amp )..

but - hey this is a cables thread and i thought i would want to know what the learned gurus think ??

It's cable so no brickbat for you

here we are discussing cables on this thread but cables are incomplete without connectors and so i thought this will add some spice

 

[sound_cycle]

My Amplifier has the capability to take any low cost speaker and make it sound like 10X expensive one.
This is subjective claim. I understand.
<Snip>then my claim becomes objective.
.

No.

It does not it still remains subjective.

Without any Arnab Goswami hectoring voice, allow me to unpack your claim : 10 X in what terms, which expensive speaker(s), how many expensive speakers did you compare with, was it a blind trial, what conditions, what was the setup, was this ever replicated and so on.

Merely claiming objectivity does not make it objective. You have nothing objective to back it up ? Which is perfectly okay, really

My claim 4 further strengthens when I bring another low cost speaker like Ahuja 12" full range and make it deliver from 30Hz to 16+KHz!

Wow ! How did you measure the frequency response? Where ? (Not that I am in the least interested or qualified really but just pointing it is just another claim, so far) And to be perfectly clear I am not ***asking*** for any proof, just pointing that you have not substantiated in any manner. Nor do you have to

However, when one claims in a general sense that 'somethings improves sound' then it becomes subjective and there is no harm in me asking for proof in objective form to understand if its a one off case or a general claim especially when there are members who look up to others who have spent considerably more time here and tend to follow them.

you want objective proof of a subjective claim ? Also see what I wrote upthread and above. And then re read your paragraph

I only joined in to say it is completely pointless to go on about objective vs subjective. And then again to observe that if you want claim objectivity, try and do it right.

I have no interest in this line of conversation. I will stay out of it.

ciao
gr

 

[Ravindra Desai]

@Ravindra Desai

This is the CAT JL2 amplifier that I have heard umpteen times with the CAT SL1 pre.

View attachment 29749

Listening to this combo is an experience in itself. Absolutely amazing fidelity and control of drivers.

Thanks for the reference.
However, personally I believe that the vinyls and tubes are both long dead technologies.
I like the sound of tubes and vinyls and will look for a chance to audition these (hopefully with fullrange speakers). They are hardly reveling any technical details though.
In fact I like it to the extent that I have modelled my semiconductor amp so as to follow the tubes output characteristics.
I did study tubes amps in good detail and know how it drives a complex load like speaker.

Since I have changed the output characteristics of a semiconductor amp to closely follow that of a tube, I am able to get tube like results with silence that only digital can offer, using my amp.

Regards,

Ravindra.

 

[Ravindra Desai]

Sorry don’t wish to steer away the very interesting cable thread but could not help it.

The Ahuja fullrange driver doing 16k down to 30hz is incredible, if it does so....

My 15” full range 100dB driver with 45 hz Fs cannot do that though it does reach till 15k or even 17k when I used the 6DJ8 SE tube buffer.

Simulate the Ahuja with the given parameters, for a ported enclosure, and see for yourself.
I have shared the plan that I use, but members here have deviated from it too much and hence have not been able to get to the expected results.

I believe you should give both your 15" Driver and Ahuja 12" a try in a ported enclosure instead of open baffle. You stand best to gain, compared to others, since you have a tube amp.

My apologies too for steering away from the mainline of this thread.

Regards,

Ravindra.

 

[rikhav]

Keeping aside the cable realted ideology differences I feel you should open up on your approach on vinyl or tubes
I am not doing vinyl vs digital comparison or tube vs ss
Both have their own charm and both sound crap when synergy is not right between other components of setup or design not so good
I am absolutely zero in technical terms but I am again saying from the setups I have heard that it's not right to consider tubes and Vinyl as dead
Yeah you can have a personal preference that you don't like the way vinyl.or tube sounds , but I feel it's wrong to consider them dead.
Again this is my personal opinion and you have all the freedom and rights to call it dead if you wish so
Me or any one else are no authority bto stop anyone from forming an opinion

 

[prem]

Hi Ravindra, I have two components in my system you are dead against - Tube amp and turntable

Maybe the next time you’re in Mumbai you could come and hear them. It may not be a great sounding set up but it’s definitely not bad sounding.

 

[Hari Iyer]

@ Ravindra Desai
How do you measure your speakers? REW with measurements or by listening by ears. If you have measured them, can you post it's FR & step response so that some of us can see it. It will be interesting for all to see the reference dB of rolloff to validate your claim.

 

[Ravindra Desai]

Keeping aside the cable realted ideology differences I feel you should open up on your approach on vinyl or tubes
I am not doing vinyl vs digital comparison or tube vs ss
Both have their own charm and both sound crap when synergy is not right between other components of setup or design not so good
I am absolutely zero in technical terms but I am again saying from the setups I have heard that it's not right to consider tubes and Vinyl as dead
Yeah you can have a personal preference that you don't like the way vinyl.or tube sounds , but I feel it's wrong to consider them dead.
Again this is my personal opinion and you have all the freedom and rights to call it dead if you wish so
Me or any one else are no authority bto stop anyone from forming an opinion

Hi Ravindra, I have two components in my system you are dead against - Tube amp and turntable

Maybe the next time you’re in Mumbai you could come and hear them. It may not be a great sounding set up but it’s definitely not bad sounding.

I think I need to improve my english. All of you are getting wrong interpretation from my sentences.

@rikhav and @prem : I am not against tubes or vinyls. On the contrary, I love the sound of tubes and vinyls. So much so (I am repeating this from my post above) that I have modeled my amp based on the tube characteristics in order to get the same warmth and sweetness. So much so that I work only with full range speakers since my amp now (since it is modeled as tube) works best with them.

From a development standpoint, it is rubbish to let the tube dealers dictate the price of my product, similar to letting branded driver manufacturers charging exorbitantly. With tubes, even low cost speakers sound good. Right?
Isn't that what I am claiming about my amp?
My goal is to deliver high sound and build quality, keep the costs low. Isn't that what you all want?
Why should it matter that I use tubes if I can give you the same signature, in a low cost, with semiconductors?

I want you all to let sound quality win and not the underlying technology that produces it.
If it comes at a low cost, support it rather than suspect it.

From development stand point, I cannot motivate myself on the tube platform and remain competitive. That's the only reason.

@ Ravindra Desai
How do you measure your speakers? REW with measurements or by listening by ears. If you have measured them, can you post it's FR & step response so that some of us can see it. It will be interesting for all to see the reference dB of rolloff to validate your claim.

I do measurements only during development time till I say the prototype is ready to be called a product. I do it using a borrowed set-up from a good friend of mine who has invested a lot in it.
The only time I have posted measurements was when I was new to this forum and trying to win member's confidence.
It was when @Kannan asked me to prove that the wooden grille in front of my speakers does not cause loss in quality.

As far as response of the Ahuja speakers go, either you have to hear it (you are allowed to bring your own measurement system) or trust me with it.
I will not post anything to prove a point or validate my calim.

I believe in making ears happy, not microphones.

I feel sad that this is the state of affairs in the DIY section.

Regards,

Ravindra.

 

[jls001]

Let's have fun with cables on this thread.

Amps, speakers, etc on other threads please (feel free to start your own threads or continue in relevant threads).