The (really) Long term dedicated HT project!

[Bhoot]

I was talking about the mixing, not the processing.

Same for them the FW aren’t used in atmos tracks. A lot of them are so lazy (like Disney) that they only include 2 channel atmos metadata. 9.1.6 is still a distant dream for owners and content.

 

[Marakk]

since both of them are 7 channels I’d recommend going for a 5.1.2 setup. Plan on bipole speakers so you get some reflection sound from the back side also. The rear surrounds are the most underrated speaker and sitting right at the back of the room is the next common mistake. The bipoles (probably in the future) will do you good.

I have been researching this myself for my setup upgrade from soundbar, and I don't think bipoles are recommended anymore. Mastering studio guidelines also recommend direct radiating speakers pointing directly at the listener. Object based audio formats will also perform below par with diffused field surrounds.

https://www.itu.int/rec/R-REC-BS.775-3-201208-I/en

 

[Marakk]

Same for them the FW aren’t used in atmos tracks. A lot of them are so lazy (like Disney) that they only include 2 channel atmos metadata. 9.1.6 is still a distant dream for owners and content.

Why are you getting into 9.1.6? Even surrounds in vanilla 5.1 are underused it seems, but that's what might change in the next few years. That's what I was getting at when I mentioned getting better surrounds than JBL Control One, to which l_f_l replied.

 

[superczar]

You can do a lot better than JBL Control One for surrounds. Those are nowhere close to representing sound even fairly well. Just...bad. As object based audio catches on, surround channels will get more use, and sometimes even voices, which can create a big mismatch between front and back.

Why do you call the C1 bad?
It's actually a very capable speaker that's good enough for even L/R duties in a small room.

But before that, here are some empirical rules I believe in

1) One shouldn't compromise on the front L/Rs in a home setup. A disproportionately high part of setup cost should go on these and from an outlay perspective, they should be the single highest cost outlay component (or the 2nd if using a high end display) - (N/A if the setup is 100% for movies only)
Added advantage - A good L/R will also enable a user to comfortably use a mid-range sub instead of a very high end one unless the room is really large

2) The Centers are very important - most of a movie playback will be handled by these, especially the parts where you are paying attention - not to be compromised on but not to go overboard with either

3) Timber matching is a bit over hyped - even between L/R and C. As long as the L/R pair and C are reasonably neutral and flat. Any subtle differences in timber will be non noticeable because

• Most Room correction algos (which should certainly be on during movies) would adjust the frequency response between the C and LR to bring them to a fairly matched state
• Dialog heavy scenes will have a 30-40db difference in the vocal track between C and LR
• Dialog panning is more of an effect where no one will be paying attention to any real or perceived tonal mismatch

4) Coming to surrounds - Movie audio mixing logic hasn't really changed much. Surrounds were and continue to be extraneous channels still used almost exclusively for effects . $$$s spent on surrounds can comfortably be diverted for incremental spend on better LCRs

Now coming to the control one, My first surround pair was (a now defunct) C1
Over the years (almost 2 decades actually, I have tried quite a few permutations & combinations ranging from tonally matched KEFs to unmatched Bose 301/ Wharfie bookshelves/ Jamo dipoles for surrounds.
Yet I somehow always end up preferring the C1 for surrounds and now atmos like duties - maybe it's the reasonably flat response, moderate dispersion coupled with the right form factor (although ideally could have been a little smaller) at the right price

From a form factor perspective, I am still trying to find smaller/ flatter speakers that are as good as the C1 but not heavily overpriced - Any suggestions are more than welcome

 

[Marakk]

Why do you call the C1 bad?
It's actually a very capable speaker that's good enough for even L/R duties in a small room.

But before that, here are some empirical rules I believe in

1) One shouldn't compromise on the front L/Rs in a home setup. A disproportionately high part of setup cost should go on these and from an outlay perspective, they should be the single highest cost outlay component (or the 2nd if using a high end display) - (N/A if the setup is 100% for movies only)
Added advantage - A good L/R will also enable a user to comfortably use a mid-range sub instead of a very high end one unless the room is really large

2) The Centers are very important - most of a movie playback will be handled by these, especially the parts where you are paying attention - not to be compromised on but not to go overboard with either

3) Timber matching is a bit over hyped - even between L/R and C. As long as the L/R pair and C are reasonably neutral and flat. Any subtle differences in timber will be non noticeable because

• Most Room correction algos (which should certainly be on during movies) would adjust the frequency response between the C and LR to bring them to a fairly matched state
• Dialog heavy scenes will have a 30-40db difference in the vocal track between C and LR
• Dialog panning is more of an effect where no one will be paying attention to any real or perceived tonal mismatch

4) Coming to surrounds - Movie audio mixing logic hasn't really changed much. Surrounds were and continue to be extraneous channels still used almost exclusively for effects . $$$s spent on surrounds can comfortably be diverted for incremental spend on better LCRs

Now coming to the control one, My first surround pair was (a now defunct) C1
Over the years (almost 2 decades actually, I have tried quite a few permutations & combinations ranging from tonally matched KEFs to unmatched Bose 301/ Wharfie bookshelves/ Jamo dipoles for surrounds.
Yet I somehow always end up preferring the C1 for surrounds and now atmos like duties - maybe it's the reasonably flat response, moderate dispersion coupled with the right form factor (although ideally could have been a little smaller) at the right price

From a form factor perspective, I am still trying to find smaller/ flatter speakers that are as good as the C1 but not heavily overpriced - Any suggestions are more than welcome

The response isn't reasonably flat at all. JBL Stage A120 should be a lot more capable and well balanced than these. Pioneer SP-BS22 don't cost a bomb at all either. Dali Zensor Pico is an option with even better wide directivity. Polk S10 is an option but kinda overpriced here.

JBL LSR305P MKii and Control 1 Pro Monitors Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the JBL 305P Mark ii powered studio monitor and Control 1 Pro budget passive monitor. I purchased the 305P Pro Mark ii when it first came out and it currently sells for US $147.50 from Amazon including Prime shipping. This is the price for one so...

www.audiosciencereview.com

They are one of the worst speakers measured yet by Amir.

There seems to be a limit as to how well tiny speakers can perform without heavy DSP control, which is lacking in passive speakers. Soundbars can overcome that with DSP.

 

[Bhoot]

I have been researching this myself for my setup upgrade from soundbar, and I don't think bipoles are recommended anymore. Mastering studio guidelines also recommend direct radiating speakers pointing directly at the listener. Object based audio formats will also perform below par with diffused field surrounds.

https://www.itu.int/rec/R-REC-BS.775-3-201208-I/en

That's when you have a clear wall and clearance at the back. In a small room with little scope of rear surround, I'd always recommend a bipole. I personally don't use the coz my back wall is about 7 feet from MLP, but the rear row (very close to the wall) gets hotspots from the speakers. Luckily for me that's been used maybe 2-3 times in the last 3 years.

 

[superczar]

The response isn't reasonably flat at all. JBL Stage A120 should be a lot more capable and well balanced than these. Pioneer SP-BS22 don't cost a bomb at all either. Dali Zensor Pico is an option with even better wide directivity. Polk S10 is an option but kinda overpriced here.

JBL LSR305P MKii and Control 1 Pro Monitors Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the JBL 305P Mark ii powered studio monitor and Control 1 Pro budget passive monitor. I purchased the 305P Pro Mark ii when it first came out and it currently sells for US $147.50 from Amazon including Prime shipping. This is the price for one so...

www.audiosciencereview.com

They are one of the worst speakers measured yet by Amir.

There seems to be a limit as to how well tiny speakers can perform without heavy DSP control, which is lacking in passive speakers. Soundbars can overcome that with DSP.

Thanks - I did look at the Zensor Pico but the lack of mounting options is a bit of an issue
I will look at the other options you suggested

 

[Marakk]

Thanks - I did look at the Zensor Pico but the lack of mounting options is a bit of an issue
I will look at the other options you suggested


BTW on Amir's measurements, With all due respect to ASR, I do have some doubts about how he performs his tests.

Check this post (for a completely different setup and subject) where a very quick & dirty Anthem measurement for Audyssey equalization in an uncontrolled environment by me shows far better results than his (presumably far better controlled) measurements

Mine: https://www.hifivision.com/threads/...plus-anthem-room-correction.79377/post-874203

vs

ASR: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/audyssey-room-eq-review.12746/

The speaker tests are being done with a Klippel system. There's no correlation between those and Audyssey underperforming between his setup and yours. Like in the Audyssey measurements, there are so many different factors to which the differences can be attributed, along with the fact that not even the same speaker is being measured. His Klippel measurements for speakers have correlated well with Harman's own measurements too for speakers for which they have released.

So if you do have a doubt, you'll have to point to an actual flaw in the Klippel system, instead of different REW measurements for Audyssey.

You can still like Control One, and if it works for you, great!! Just that it's objectively been shown to not be reasonably flat or even close. The bass perfomance is also severely lacking, which does mean that objects panning from front to back will differ in sound a lot. The better fronts you have, the more the difference becomes. Whether you'll notice it or not, that's subjective.

 

[Marakk]

That's when you have a clear wall and clearance at the back. In a small room with little scope of rear surround, I'd always recommend a bipole. I personally don't use the coz my back wall is about 7 feet from MLP, but the rear row (very close to the wall) gets hotspots from the speakers. Luckily for me that's been used maybe 2-3 times in the last 3 years.

I was debating between these two myself, but the ITU rec settled the debate. Downfiring speakers, Dali Alteco more specifically as you can make their angle point down even more, are the way to go as they'll be closer to the recommendations even if pointed on the rear wall above listeners. Kind of beats the purpose of DTS:X otherwise.

 

[superczar]

The speaker tests are being done with a Klippel system. There's no correlation between those and Audyssey underperforming between his setup and yours. Like in the Audyssey measurements, there are so many different factors to which the differences can be attributed, along with the fact that not even the same speaker is being measured. His Klippel measurements for speakers have correlated well with Harman's own measurements too for speakers for which they have released.

So if you do have a doubt, you'll have to point to an actual flaw in the Klippel system, instead of different REW measurements for Audyssey.

You can still like Control One, and if it works for you, great!! Just that it's objectively been shown to not be reasonably flat or even close. The bass perfomance is also severely lacking, which does mean that objects panning from front to back will differ in sound a lot. The better fronts you have, the more the difference becomes. Whether you'll notice it or not, that's subjective.

You are right in that there are far too many variables at play - Don't get me wrong, I am 100% on the objective fence and trust a good set of data points over subject assessments

The point I am trying to make is that data is good only when done right - which reminds me of my all time fav dilbert strip

Coming back to the topic, unfortunately i cannot seem to find any low profile semi directional speakers that are easy to mount yet are not too rich for my blood, esp for a relatively low priority item like surrounds.

Normally I'd have postponed this as hand carrying small speakers on overseas trips is easy - but thanks to Covid, who knows when things will go back to normal

 

[Bhoot]

I was debating between these two myself, but the ITU rec settled the debate. Downfiring speakers, Dali Alteco more specifically as you can make their angle point down even more, are the way to go as they'll be closer to the recommendations even if pointed on the rear wall above listeners. Kind of beats the purpose of DTS:X otherwise.

To add to my previous post and answering you as well, I read somewhere that the minimum distance from a monopole speaker should be 2 feet. Also the OP has only 7 speakers that he can set up. So it's either a 7.1 or a 5.1.2. The angled speakers on the side wall are also not the best solution since the Tweetter is very directional. Because of the angle at which they are constructed there might be only one point for say 4' height where the tweeter would fall in line with your ears. The rest of the seats would be missing the sound completely. If at all you're limited for space you should mount these on the rear walls. The tweeter is very directional. It's the same reason people ask you to tow in the speakers.

 

[Marakk]

To add to my previous post and answering you as well, I read somewhere that the minimum distance from a monopole speaker should be 2 feet. Also the OP has only 7 speakers that he can set up. So it's either a 7.1 or a 5.1.2. The angled speakers on the side wall are also not the best solution since the Tweetter is very directional. Because of the angle at which they are constructed there might be only one point for say 4' height where the tweeter would fall in line with your ears. The rest of the seats would be missing the sound completely. If at all you're limited for space you should mount these on the rear walls. The tweeter is very directional. It's the same reason people ask you to tow in the speakers.

Except that Dali speakers have wide directivity. All the more reason OP should ditch JBL Control One for surrounds. They are just not going to work well. Speakers with good directivity will work better.

 

[superczar]

dupe deleted

 

[superczar]

To add to my previous post and answering you as well, I read somewhere that the minimum distance from a monopole speaker should be 2 feet. Also the OP has only 7 speakers that he can set up. So it's either a 7.1 or a 5.1.2. The angled speakers on the side wall are also not the best solution since the Tweetter is very directional. Because of the angle at which they are constructed there might be only one point for say 4' height where the tweeter would fall in line with your ears. The rest of the seats would be missing the sound completely. If at all you're limited for space you should mount these on the rear walls. The tweeter is very directional. It's the same reason people ask you to tow in the speakers.

Except that Dali speakers have wide directivity. All the more reason OP should ditch JBL Control One for surrounds. They are just not going to work well. Speakers with good directivity will work better.

Alright, so to test my hypothesis that one can get away with any POS surrounds / atmos speakers , I have ordered a pair of Micca Covo-S sepakers for kicks and to see how far down one can go in the value chain for surrounds and atmos !
Expected by Saturday.

Given one can’t go out, I will put Sunday to productive use by running 5 back to back tests with
1) KEF iQ5s as surrounds - floor mounted and on the sides
2) KEF Q300s as surrounds - stand mounted and on the sides
3) Boston A26 (or maybe it‘s A25, don’t remember) - same as 2
4) Control one, wall mounted and angled
5) Covo-S - Sticky taped on top of Control one and angled

Will try balance out the speaker response by running a quick 3 spot Audyssey run for each set
To avoid long gaps between tests, I will save each curve on phone and upload after each swap to try keep the gap as short as 2-3 mins
If it gets too tedious, I will remove 2 and 3 from testing (as they are in active use elsewhere in the house) and keep 1, 4 and 5

If 5 does turn out to be nice (which I doubt but could be wrong), I can simply get away with using them as atmos at least
If not, they are cheap enough to give away or to retain for future testing purposes

Any particular movie segment you guys recommend that would act as a good test?

PS: I Cannot evenimagine attempting something so silly yet interesting during normal times

 

[Marakk]

Alright, so to test my hypothesis that one can get away with any POS surrounds / atmos speakers , I have ordered a pair of Micca Covo-S sepakers for kicks and to see how far down one can go in the value chain for surrounds and atmos !
Expected by Saturday.

Given one can’t go out, I will put Sunday to productive use by running 5 back to back tests with
1) KEF iQ5s as surrounds - floor mounted and on the sides
2) KEF Q300s as surrounds - stand mounted and on the sides
3) Boston A26 (or maybe it‘s A25, don’t remember) - same as 2
4) Control one, wall mounted and angled
5) Covo-S - Sticky taped on top of Control one and angled

Will try balance out the speaker response by running a quick 3 spot Audyssey run for each set
To avoid long gaps between tests, I will save each curve on phone and upload after each swap to try keep the gap as short as 2-3 mins
If it gets too tedious, I will remove 2 and 3 from testing (as they are in active use elsewhere in the house) and keep 1, 4 and 5

If 5 does turn out to be nice (which I doubt but could be wrong), I can simply get away with using them as atmos at least
If not, they are cheap enough to give away or to retain for future testing purposes

Any particular movie segment you guys recommend that would act as a good test?

PS: I Cannot evenimagine attempting something so silly yet interesting during normal times

Good way to pass time indeed. Lol

Good luck! Blind testing would have been better, but oh well, let's see what you think. Test in an off axis position too maybe. See what kind of sound that area gets from each.

 

[liverpool_for_life]

Yet I somehow always end up preferring the C1 for surrounds and now atmos like duties - maybe it's the reasonably flat response, moderate dispersion coupled with the right form factor (although ideally could have been a little smaller) at the right price

If you mount the Atmos ceiling speakers at the angles recommended by Dolby, moderate dispersion should, in fact, work against good delivery of Atmos, unless the speakers are angled towards the MLP. And, even with the angling towards MLP, you're going to compromise the sound for other seats and rows (if any).

 

[superczar]

Alright, so to test my hypothesis that one can get away with any POS surrounds / atmos speakers , I have ordered a pair of Micca Covo-S sepakers for kicks and to see how far down one can go in the value chain for surrounds and atmos !
Expected by Saturday.

Given one can’t go out, I will put Sunday to productive use by running 5 back to back tests with
1) KEF iQ5s as surrounds - floor mounted and on the sides
2) KEF Q300s as surrounds - stand mounted and on the sides
3) Boston A26 (or maybe it‘s A25, don’t remember) - same as 2
4) Control one, wall mounted and angled
5) Covo-S - Sticky taped on top of Control one and angled

Will try balance out the speaker response by running a quick 3 spot Audyssey run for each set
To avoid long gaps between tests, I will save each curve on phone and upload after each swap to try keep the gap as short as 2-3 mins
If it gets too tedious, I will remove 2 and 3 from testing (as they are in active use elsewhere in the house) and keep 1, 4 and 5

If 5 does turn out to be nice (which I doubt but could be wrong), I can simply get away with using them as atmos at least
If not, they are cheap enough to give away or to retain for future testing purposes

Any particular movie segment you guys recommend that would act as a good test?

PS: I Cannot evenimagine attempting something so silly yet interesting during normal times

Got the Covo-S today , First impression - No good
I swapped out my Kitchen BA A26 and this is what I thoughtt
No low end (which would have been OK) , artificial sounding mids (certainly not OK) and acceptably bad highs

The mids however sound just off . Any PEQ correction won’t fix this although now that I have them I will try see how far ARC genesis and audyssey go yo extract good sound from bad speakers.
I will probably mount them as well for atmos since they buy me some time till I can find other suitable speakers

Have to say that am surprised they still maintain a 4.5 star rating on amazon.com

Back to the drawing board - I can think of OWM3 and Minx 12 as other possible options apart from the C1

 

[Marakk]

Got the Covo-S today , First impression - No good
I swapped out my Kitchen BA A26 and this is what I thoughtt
No low end (which would have been OK) , artificial sounding mids (certainly not OK) and acceptably bad highs

The mids however sound just off . Any PEQ correction won’t fix this although now that I have them I will try see how far ARC genesis and audyssey go yo extract good sound from bad speakers.
I will probably mount them as well for atmos since they buy me some time till I can find other suitable speakers

Have to say that am surprised they still maintain a 4.5 star rating on amazon.com

Back to the drawing board - I can think of OWM3 and Minx 12 as other possible options apart from the C1

Damn! That sucks. I'm planning on using Polk Atrium 4 to go as Atmos speakers with my JBL Stage A120 build (front and surround match). They'll have decent bass, better than Polk OMW3. Check them out. You can mount them at any angle. I'm thinking of bouncing to ceiling from short distance and then configuring as top fronts instead of front heights or Atmos enabled.

 

[superczar]

Damn! That sucks. I'm planning on using Polk Atrium 4 to go as Atmos speakers with my JBL Stage A120 build (front and surround match). They'll have decent bass, better than Polk OMW3. Check them out. You can mount them at any angle. I'm thinking of bouncing to ceiling from short distance and then configuring as top fronts instead of front heights or Atmos enabled.

I have tried angled bounce in the past- don't bother with it is all I will say.
The Atrium 4 looks good - let me check that.
Another good option may be the Bose 161

On a side note, my test with the Covo-s was flawed as it was a full range stereo test compared against a 3 way Floorstander with 7" VDT woofers and mid-range making it a terribly flawed comparison.


I mounted the speakers as ATMOS speakers last evening in the living room setup - After running audyssey and setting the crossover to 120 for these, I think they sound pretty decent. Probably the removal of the lower end frequencies helped with removal of distortions that would have been messing up the mid range earlier

Now the only test I ran was the opening sequence of the first thing that popped up on Netflix with an atmos logo - and that was Betaal
However the result was quite encouraging - The first few minutes have a scene with a lot of temple bells that I think did serve as a good test as any tonal mismatches would result in an unnatural sound - which I did not hear.
I think they can serve atmos duty at least temporarily till I find something better. I Still do need replacement ATMOS for the living room so the hunt continues

 

[Marakk]

I have tried angled bounce in the past- don't bother with it is all I will say.
The Atrium 4 looks good - let me check that.
Another good option may be the Bose 161

On a side note, my test with the Covo-s was flawed as it was a full range stereo test compared against a 3 way Floorstander with 7" VDT woofers and mid-range making it a terribly flawed comparison.


I mounted the speakers as ATMOS speakers last evening in the living room setup - After running audyssey and setting the crossover to 120 for these, I think they sound pretty decent. Probably the removal of the lower end frequencies helped with removal of distortions that would have been messing up the mid range earlier

Now the only test I ran was the opening sequence of the first thing that popped up on Netflix with an atmos logo - and that was Betaal
However the result was quite encouraging - The first few minutes have a scene with a lot of temple bells that I think did serve as a good test as any tonal mismatches would result in an unnatural sound - which I did not hear.
I think they can serve atmos duty at least temporarily till I find something better. I Still do need replacement ATMOS for the living room so the hunt continues

From where did you bounce to the ceiling and which speakers?

I'll probably get Polk Atrium 4 within a couple of weeks. Waiting for hardware stores to open as I'll need some tools to install everything and hide wires. Will update later.n