Tube DAC vs R2R ladder DAC

[krishnan.s]

Hello friends,

I have a Denafrips Terminator ( r2r ) ladder dac. I really likeed this over the chip DAC's that I have heard before. I am looking at trying out the Audio Note Tube DAC - dac4-1x. Would be really helpful if anyone could share their experience with Audio Note dac's and any futher insights on r2r vs tube dac would be awesome.
Thank you.

Best.
Krishnan

 

[reignofchaos]

Hello friends,

I have a Denafrips Terminator ( r2r ) ladder dac. I really likeed this over the chip DAC's that I have heard before. I am looking at trying out the Audio Note Tube DAC - dac4-1x. Would be really helpful if anyone could share their experience with Audio Note dac's and any futher insights on r2r vs tube dac would be awesome.
Thank you.

Best.
Krishnan

Audio note dacs are also R2R - almost all are based on Analog Devices AD1865 chips. They only do 16/44 and 16/48 however.

 

[Kannan]

Hello friends,

I have a Denafrips Terminator ( r2r ) ladder dac. I really likeed this over the chip DAC's that I have heard before. I am looking at trying out the Audio Note Tube DAC - dac4-1x. Would be really helpful if anyone could share their experience with Audio Note dac's and any futher insights on r2r vs tube dac would be awesome.
Thank you.

Best.
Krishnan

Within my limited understanding, Tube DAC is a misnomer. I wonder how a pure analogue device can be termed as something that handles digital data.
The tube is possibly used either as a buffer, as a gain stage or in power section or a combination of all three in the so called tube DAC.

So do not buy a Tube DAC for its DAC qualities which do not exist, but for what it adds to post the conversion. so you will need to ask Audio Note what is the DAC chip or any other tech they have used for the digital to analogue conversion and what the tubes used do to the signals.

 

[krishnan.s]

Within my limited understanding, Tube DAC is a misnomer. I wonder how a pure analogue device can be termed as something that handles digital data.
The tube is possibly used either as a buffer, as a gain stage or in power section or a combination of all three in the so called tube DAC.

So do not buy a Tube DAC for its DAC qualities which do not exist, but for what it adds to post the conversion. so you will need to ask Audio Note what is the DAC chip or any other tech they have used for the digital to analogue conversion and what the tubes used do to the signals.

Thank you @Kannan. Thats a very interesting point. Let me do a deep reading on this and like you suggested would check with Audio note as well. Looks like they have an experience centre only in Sri Lanka if someone wants to audition.

 

[krishnan.s]

Exactly. Let tubes stay with tube amps and let non tube devices handle the job of D to A conversion.

Yes, wrt R2R there are options of chip DAC or chipless DAC.

As far as gain stage is concerned, I prefer discrete devices over others any day on DAC or preamplifier level.

Could you expand on "I prefer discrete devices over others any day on DAC or preamplifier level."

 

[krishnan.s]

Thank you @Kannan. Thats a very interesting point. Let me do a deep reading on this and like you suggested would check with Audio note as well. Looks like they have an experience centre only in Sri Lanka if someone wants to audition.

after some reading from audio note:

the Audio Note (UK) DAC4.1x has no over sampling, no jitter reduction, no noise shaping and no re-clocking. Having removed all of the digital filtering that is required for over sampling, all filtering is done in the analogue domain where it is easier to retain good, wide band phase-frequency and dynamically coherent behaviour. It uses the highest grade Analogue Devices AD1865, 18Bit stereo converter chip solely because we found it to be the best sounding available (yes, even better than the 20Bit versions!).
...
The DAC4.1x Balanced features an upgraded version of the M6 Line pre-amplifier output stage, using the 5814a and 6463 double triode valves. This is coupled to an output transformer, wound with Audio Note (UK) copper wire on a High B C-core. With a 33:1 step-down ratio, this output transformer not only has exceptionally wide frequency response, but also just about the absolutely best dynamic transfer function possible. The analogue output has provisions for both unbalanced and balanced operation, using the best available quality RCA and XLR connectors.

 

[Soulsatisfaction]

after some reading from audio note:

the Audio Note (UK) DAC4.1x has no over sampling, no jitter reduction, no noise shaping and no re-clocking. Having removed all of the digital filtering that is required for over sampling, all filtering is done in the analogue domain where it is easier to retain good, wide band phase-frequency and dynamically coherent behaviour. It uses the highest grade Analogue Devices AD1865, 18Bit stereo converter chip solely because we found it to be the best sounding available (yes, even better than the 20Bit versions!).
...
The DAC4.1x Balanced features an upgraded version of the M6 Line pre-amplifier output stage, using the 5814a and 6463 double triode valves. This is coupled to an output transformer, wound with Audio Note (UK) copper wire on a High B C-core. With a 33:1 step-down ratio, this output transformer not only has exceptionally wide frequency response, but also just about the absolutely best dynamic transfer function possible. The analogue output has provisions for both unbalanced and balanced operation, using the best available quality RCA and XLR connectors.

Believe your ear and decide

 

[krishnan.s]

Believe your ear and decide

Absolutely!

 

[greenhorn]

My understanding is that adding a tube buffer at the output of a dac isn't a big difference, but what originally got tubes into dacs was the current to voltage conversion where some people claimed that tubes had better impedance match and transfer characteristics.
R2R and tube dacs aren't alternates. You can choose dacs that have both.

 

[Soulsatisfaction]

My understanding is that adding a tube buffer at the output of a dac isn't a big difference, but what originally got tubes into dacs was the current to voltage conversion where some people claimed that tubes had better impedance match and transfer characteristics.
R2R and tube dacs aren't alternates. You can choose dacs that have both.

With my limited number experience with tubes their performance may change with time then why to put on DAC? May be I am wrong

 

[Analogous]

I am using a DAC with a tube buffer- (MHDT labs Havana DAC).
I have near zero knowledge of the technicalities of DAC architecture and design. But having used a few chip based and FPGA DACs I like what the MHDT Labs brings to the mix better than the others.
I have not heard any Audionote DACs so no opinion on this. I do however think of the MHDT Labs Pagoda DAC and think …. Some day…..
(ASR rated Pagoda as the worst measuring DAC among all they tested; subjective reviews are all gushing with praise). I think I definitely want one. No, I need one.

 

[reignofchaos]

With my limited number experience with tubes their performance may change with time then why to put on DAC? May be I am wrong

When a small signal tube is driven lightly, a good quality tube may last 10000 hours easily - probably way more than what the dac will ever be used in its life.

 

[sidvee]

I have had many tube dacs, preamps, amps. in the past 25 years. Don't remember replacing any tubes due to tube defects, mostly rather to change the component or tube rolling. If anybody is thinking that this is a limitation of a tubed component, DAC or otherwise, they may be missing out on some excellent musical experiences.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[keith_correa]

I don't think he's talking about tube failure but about tube deterioration over time which is a fact though most never realize it because it's so gradual. Until one replaces it - and then it's a mind altering moment for some.

 

[sidvee]

I don't think he's talking about tube failure but about tube deterioration over time which is a fact though most never realize it because it's so gradual. Until one replaces it - and then it's a mind altering moment for some.

So it is something that one cannot hear? Loss of bass, collapsing of soundstage, increase in idle noise etc? Of-course one has to replace tubes eventually, but usually one can hear this type of deterioration, and as ROC said for a small octal tube based device, they will last thousands of hours even before these symptoms show up.
Anyways just my experience, having used these for many years, but I may be wrong.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[keith_correa]

So it is something that one cannot hear? Loss of bass, collapsing of soundstage, increase in idle noise etc?

It's perceptible; but for one (all?) who listens to their equipment constantly, it's not, because it's so very gradual. For one who has the aural memory of deterioration point n as compared to deterioration point n + 50 (chosen at random), it's perceptible.

Of-course one has to replace tubes eventually, but usually one can hear this type of deterioration,

See above

and as ROC said for a small octal tube based device, they will last thousands of hours even before these symptoms show up.

Possibly, yes. I really don't know.

But in what you say, you are right - it's not perceptible given the use case that I outlined, but it's there.

 

[bmkmanoj]

How does the Gustard R26 compare to the other R2R DACs ?

 

[jai1611]

How does the Gustard R26 compare to the other R2R DACs ?

I've compared it to the Pontus (own both). The differences are subtle. I prefer the Pontus between the two (slightly warmer, equally resolving). The Sonnet Morpheus is more resolving than both but lacks the Pontus's warmth.

 

[naks]

i am using an musical fidelity trivista 21 tube dac limited to 1500 pieces. built like a tank with 2 toroidal and 2 regular transformers.
it has 5703w tubes lasts for 100000 hours. compared it with denafrips terminator and gustard x26 pro and holo audio l2 . no usb or i2s
musical fidelity but outperforms in every aspect timbre tone and bass slam.but newer dacs sounding thin relatively. so hunt for older dacs.imo
trivista 21dac can change sound quality by rolling opamps which i will be trying soon. if any one has the chance get it from uk and taste the sound of it

cheers
naks