Vintage vs. "modern" amplifiers

[asliarun]

I think painting with such broad brush strokes is wrong. And IMO, the thing about that era being better because of "ear for listening to music" and "musicians or listened to live music as well and hence knew what to expect" is mostly humbug.
There were duds then and there are duds now. There were gems then and also now. We see only the past gems and draw conclusions for the era. Wrongly, IMO.
The "good old days" in retrospect are always viewed through rose tinted glasses. The same way our children/grand-children, in the future, will refer to the present as the "good old days".

I completely agree with you. I find it strangle to believe that a modern audio equipment designer (making audiophile equipment, not mass market stuff) would not bother to listen to the equipment she/he was designing. I really don't think the "ethos" has changed all that much (if at all) over the years. This industry is a bit like watch making or making custom cars. The values have remained the same, and customer requirements have remained the same.

The only difference is that watch collectors and car collectors don't have romanticized notions that the quality of watch making or the quality of handmade cars has deteriorated over time. Don't get me wrong. They still collect vintage watches and cars with a passion. However, they are not attempting to make comparisons with modern handmade watches and cars. There really is no *need* to make comparisons. So why does the audio world persist in this??

I hope I am not going off-topic but I have this exact same opinion about "vintage" music as well. I can only comment about rock and not other forms of music, but there is an irrational and very wide-spread notion that certain eras of rock music were the "best". You even see it in pubs. Its like we live in a time warp. There are many many bands - many barely 5 years old - that are performing and composing at very very high quality levels. If anything, there's more talent today than ever before.

The only difference is that today's talent has not been distilled or filtered through the lens of time. Again, the classic bands of 70s and 80s etc. (or any other era) also had their massively talented performances and songs. The older eras also had their themes. In fact, because of widespread access to music over the internet, today, you no longer have a mono-culture that you used to have before the internet era. Earlier, if you had to survive as a musician, you had to conform to that era's theme and had to tailor your music accordingly. And if you successfully managed to veer off-course a bit *after* becoming famous, you were called innovative.

Just some random thoughts. Apologies if I took this a bit offcourse.

 

[navinsinha]

An interesting article by Chuck Hawks on this subject.....

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

I think for one, when equipment was built those days, the cost focus wasn't that extreme...

When were "those days?"

In my "Those days," nobody even had stereo, of any kind, let alone hifi, unless they were quite seriously rich. My family certainly did not.

My late parents' "Those days," had they been interested in such things, would have extended back to the scientists and engineers that pioneered stereo audio as we know it today.

I completely agree with you. I find it strangle to believe that a modern audio equipment designer (making audiophile equipment, not mass market stuff) would not bother to listen to the equipment she/he was designing. I really don't think the "ethos" has changed all that much (if at all) over the years. This industry is a bit like watch making or making custom cars. The values have remained the same, and customer requirements have remained the same.

I think you are right, but if there is a difference then it might belong to the eras of great pioneering, first in stereo recording, tape, gramophone records, and second, in digital audio.

Now I am going to go against some of what I just said ...

In some ways, I am beginning to think that we are indeed living in the dark days of audio. Where is the development that compare to the advances I just mentioned? Today's brains are simply not focussed on recording better music, they are focussed on marketing-department demands for lunatic digital formats with silly numbers that do not represent better music at all, only a form of lunacy. The entire industry is turning into snake oil.

I suspect that the designers and makers of serious kit are the ones who are really despairing!

Leaving that aside, muttering whatever-will-be-will-be, the great advance during my lifetime has been (apart from the massive step of digital audio) making hifi, if not easily affordable, then at least not only for the rich.

 

[asliarun]

Thad, I agree with you.. somewhat. I do feel that innovation has taken a backseat to being cost competitiveness.

How about headphones and portable audio though? Do you think we have products and innovations that either never existed a couple of decades ago, or existed but could never deliver quality audio in these form factors?

How about Class D amplification and chip amps? Are they not reaching very very close to the holy grail - Class A and tube amplification? Or forget the comparison, have they not improved dramatically of late?

How about quality of music from other appliances such as televisions and portable speakers? The sound quality I get from my LG television's ribbon/flat speakers is actually far better than the audio systems I used to hear a couple of decades ago. I'm talking about speakers that practically disappear and that are available as a component in a mass market audio device. I'm not kidding you - it actually delivers about 80% of the quality of my floorstanders, and I can actually listen to music quite happily from my television speakers.

How about products and systems that do dynamic equalization and room correction - such as DSpeaker Antimode, Tact amps, etc. Even Audussey that ships in most mass market AVRs.

How about the whole category of power DACs - NAD 3020, TACT (the pioneer, I guess), NuForce DDA100, etc. They're basically PWM DACs that are able to amplify audio in pure digital domain all the way up to levels that can drive most speakers with ease. There's more progress made in this area in a decade than tube amps have made in a much longer time-frame.

I know that digital was mentioned earlier in this thread as an exception to the rule, but DACs are one thing, these kind of power DACs are a complete game changer. They are redefining what an amplifier should be.

Lastly, I want to validate why I said I partially agree with you. I feel that the progress and innovation has been made only in certain specific areas. Other areas continue to be neglected quite terribly. Speakers for example (and arguably the most important component in the chain). We're still stuck with the same construction techniques and driver technology. Maybe my expectations are unreasonable but I would have expected speakers to largely be a "solved problem". But it has remained the same.

A wild guess - 3D printing might perhaps allow us to make a unibody speaker cabinet that will hopefully be a lot more inert than speaker cabinets that are built from glued pieces. Or perhaps this is already being done? (studio monitors perhaps?) Not sure. Just an idea.

 

[greenhorn]

When were "those days?"

In my "Those days," nobody even had stereo, of any kind, let alone hifi, unless they were quite seriously rich. My family certainly did not.

For me, 'those days' were around the 70's. when Solid state amplification was reasonably mature, and the before the BPC (black plastic crap) era. My dad managed to fund the purchase of a decent panasonic amplideck from the 70's - and we were not even remotely rich.

Probably the stuff we can get might be better spec wise, but I doubt it would hold up its age as his deck has.

 

[captrajesh]

Today's brains are simply not focussed on recording better music, they are focussed on marketing-department demands for lunatic digital formats with silly numbers that do not represent better music at all, only a form of lunacy. The entire industry is turning into snake oil.

I suspect that the designers and makers of serious kit are the ones who are really despairing!

Bang on Thad. Fully endorse your views.

How about quality of music from other appliances such as televisions and portable speakers? The sound quality I get from my LG television's ribbon/flat speakers is actually far better than the audio systems I used to hear a couple of decades ago. I'm talking about speakers that practically disappear and that are available as a component in a mass market audio device. I'm not kidding you - it actually delivers about 80% of the quality of my floorstanders, and I can actually listen to music quite happily from my television speakers.

80% of quality of floorstander! Which floorstander is this!!

I'm not sure how you've quantified the percentage but IMHO it is a highly exaggerated figure.

 

[square_wave]

I believe that technology has come a long way in the last few decades.

From an arm chair point of view this should result in superior numbers of vastly superior products at cheaper rates across the board.

BUT,

How much of this advance in tech is relevant to amplification and loudspeakers? For some kind of high fidelity endeavors / camps, are they even applicable or relevant?

I am sure a large number of genuinely higher quality products (using advances in tech) have been designed and are available in the market today. The problem is with clear visibility. Multiple factors related to market needs / trends and proliferation of white coats that cohabit with clever marketers creates a lot of confusion in the market. The sheer numbers and mis-information create a lot of chaos.

Is the number of better hi fidelity products more nowadays? It sure is. One just needs to know where to look.

But numbers tell only one story. There are many camps, endeavors in this hobbyone need to look from all perspectives. When you do so, things can be a little hazy..

 

[prepress]

The sound quality I get from my LG television's ribbon/flat speakers is actually far better than the audio systems I used to hear a couple of decades ago. I'm talking about speakers that practically disappear and that are available as a component in a mass market audio device. I'm not kidding you - it actually delivers about 80% of the quality of my floorstanders, and I can actually listen to music quite happily from my television speakers.

80% of quality of floorstander! Which floorstander is this!!

Which LG Television is this!!

 

[asliarun]

Bang on Thad. Fully endorse your views.


80% of quality of floorstander! Which floorstander is this!!

I'm not sure how you've quantified the percentage but IMHO it is a highly exaggerated figure.

Maybe my number was completely off
I meant to say the sound is quite good - at least for casual listening. Or to put it another way, my TV sounds significantly better than the other crappy alternative I have in my house - like listening from 2 different portable iPad docked speakers.

I was only trying to highlight the progress that has been made in this sector.

My TV is an LG Jazz series 42lg80fr:
LG Jazz 42LG80FR - Tech2

I purchased it several years ago. I know it sounds strange or perhaps my ears have melted after years of listening to rock at loud levels. The sound from this TV is significantly better than most other TVs - and for me, it is good enough that I can listen to music from it. When I purchased it, I did an extensive comparison with all other models that were available, and as far as sound quality was concerned, the LG Jazz series were a class apart.

My speakers are Carnegie Acoustics CST1 floorstanders. They are based on a Danny Richie design - and use the same (or similar) GR Research drivers and ribbon tweeters. It is a TL design as well.

To be fair, when I turn the floorstanders on, the music really opens up and there IS most certainly a difference. My point though was that the TV speakers are "listenable". I can focus on the music without having to be distracted by the fact that speakers sounding tinny, boxed up etc.

 

[asliarun]

P.S. Maybe I'm a cheap date

 

[hemantwaghe]

Maybe my number was completely off
I meant to say the sound is quite good - at least for casual listening. Or to put it another way, my TV sounds significantly better than the other crappy alternative I have in my house - like listening from 2 different portable iPad docked speakers.

I was only trying to highlight the progress that has been made in this sector.

My TV is an LG Jazz series 42lg80fr:
LG Jazz 42LG80FR - Tech2

I purchased it several years ago. I know it sounds strange or perhaps my ears have melted after years of listening to rock at loud levels. The sound from this TV is significantly better than most other TVs - and for me, it is good enough that I can listen to music from it. When I purchased it, I did an extensive comparison with all other models that were available, and as far as sound quality was concerned, the LG Jazz series were a class apart.

My speakers are Carnegie Acoustics CST1 floorstanders. They are based on a Danny Richie design - and use the same (or similar) GR Research drivers and ribbon tweeters. It is a TL design as well.

To be fair, when I turn the floorstanders on, the music really opens up and there IS most certainly a difference. My point though was that the TV speakers are "listenable". I can focus on the music without having to be distracted by the fact that speakers sounding tinny, boxed up etc.

This TV was successor of LG Scarlet series - for which Mark Levinson was Sound consultant.

LG Launches the Hit New LCD TV, 'Scarlet'

I think for Jazz too he was consultant

http://www.infibeam.com/TVs/i-LG-50-Jazz-Plasma-TV/P-E-HE-LG-50PJ560.html

mark levinson | Mrinal's (Hopelessly Obsolete) Tech Blog

Some know how must have watered down !

 

[trittya]

There are two kinds of fools,

One says-this is old and therefore good.

The other says-this is new and therefore better.

---John Brunner

 

[crosstalk]

Good and not so good exist in both vintage and modern amps. It is question of what works best for whom and comes to personal choice. There cannot be a generic statement like Vintage is better than modern amps or vice versa.

If someone is making such a claim, it is entirely his personal opinion. Just as there is a generic belief that vinyls are better than CDs anyday! (Not true and not going into details).

There are good vinyls, not so good vinyls, good CDs and not so good CDs.

Personally I have grown with vinyls and cassettes. If you ask me I find CDs are convenient to store, handle and listen to. They absolutely work fine for me. I see a lot of people around buying vinyls, cassettes for a fact they are better than CDs. Definitely there are a lot of vinyls and cassettes with better recording/ better versions on them compared to a CD. But it is not generic. Anyways....

Whether one of them is better or not, it is entirely one's personal perception. But there is a tendency these days to establish this as a fact as a lot of people are joining the same bandwagon.

Enjoy what you have, what you prefer and most of all, enjoy your music.

 

[Essarr]

"The resultant performance reinforced the notion that we havent progressed very far in three decades." - is a worthy quote from Ken Kessler (at Tone Audio) in a recent revisit/review of a restored Krell KSA50 power amplifier from early 80's. This Krell unit purchased in 1984, in partnership with an Audio Research SP-8 of the same era, I have not had a single valid reason to "upgrade" anything. All the musicians are present right there in your room, all you have to do is close your eyes. Buying vintage is a good thing, and getting re-furbished by a competent technical person would be even wiser.

Krell KSA-50 Amplifier – Old School | TONEAudio MAGAZINE

 

[square_wave]

"The resultant performance reinforced the notion that we havent progressed very far in three decades." - is a worthy quote from Ken Kessler (at Tone Audio) in a recent revisit/review of a restored Krell KSA50 power amplifier from early 80's. This Krell unit purchased in 1984, in partnership with an Audio Research SP-8 of the same era, I have not had a single valid reason to "upgrade" anything. All the musicians are present right there in your room, all you have to do is close your eyes. Buying vintage is a good thing, and getting re-furbished by a competent technical person would be even wiser.

Krell KSA-50 Amplifier Old School | TONEAudio MAGAZINE

This is in fact very true..

I have witnessed 3 different music system changes in a superbly treated listening room that belongs to a certain elderly audiophile in Bangalore. The original system consisted of very well chosen and regarded components from the eighties. A lot of thought had gone into that system.. Went through changes through the years due to component failures and now it a costly and well regarded brand but mid-level components ( due to cost considerations)

For all practical purposes I certainly preferred the older system. He also thinks so

If only some of these older components could be re furbished by competent people..they will sound really good..

New is good but dont be fooled by marketing.quality is not cheap unless you DIY.

 

[Fantastic]

.....I certainly preferred the older system. He also thinks so....

If only some of these older components could be re furbished by competent people..they will sound really good..

.....quality is not cheap unless you DIY.........

If it's not too much to ask, what were the older components ?
What kind of components need change ? Active devices or electrolytic caps or film caps .....?
Things like corroded contacts in switches and relays and damaged copper tracks are very hard to fix properly. Just a parts change might be easy if direct replacements are available. Many if's !

DIY 'could' be cheap but often it is not !
Many DIY'ers want to build 'great' systems and so buy premium parts from retail outlets with high margins. So the end result is that it does turn out to be expensive. Add to that the time spent on it . If the builder charges for his time at the rate that he gets paid for his day job , it will most likely turn out to be a very expensive end product !

 

[Fantastic]

........ Buying vintage is a good thing, and getting re-furbished by a competent technical person would be even wiser......

Maybe a competent DIY'er building a copy or reasonably close copy of a 'desired model' might be a better bet ? Today's parts are as good as or better than 'aging' parts ....and should last another 15~20 years without trouble , if built well ! Parts selection might need some research as there are numerous manufacturers of parts with differing specs. Two key areas being resistors and capacitors. One could exceed the original design by buying what we might term 'boutique parts' at much higher cost. Will it matter ? Well , this is audio. You have to build it and hear it to determine that properly ! BUT , you can have many hours and months of pleasure doing this and that is invaluable !
Doing this selection is tough, in my opinion. For example, they say generally that polypropylene film caps sound better than polyester film caps. Polypropylene caps being more expensive usually. In practice you will find that in some applications some polyester caps do sound very good . Does silver wire sound better than copper wire ? Try it out ! You will need external help to make genuine AB tests so that your 'clever' brain doesn't 'trick' you in believing you actually hear a difference. But if you hear a difference and no one else does, and the equipment is for yourself, then what you like is what you should settle for.