We are becoming a Nation of intolerants

[captrajesh]

Of late I've noticed that people are getting intolerant.

Intolerant to different view point.
Intolerant to different mind set (read broadmindedness).
Intolerant to expression of one's creativity that is at deviance with mainstream beliefs, be it a Movie, Novel, Poetry Painting or even as mundane thing as a cartoon.

People are getting rediculed, castigated, abused and even maimed. Wondering what is wrong with Human race in general and Indians in particular!!

The thread is open for discussion. All kind of views even deviant ones are welcome.

 

[murali]

Of late I've noticed that people are getting intolerant.

Intolerant to different view point.
Intolerant to different mind set (read broadmindedness).
Intolerant to expression of one's creativity that is at deviance with mainstream beliefs, be it a Movie, Novel, Poetry Painting or even as mundane thing as a cartoon.

People are getting rediculed, castigated, abused and even maimed. Wondering what is wrong with Human race in general and Indians in particular!!

The thread is open for discussion. All kind of views even deviant ones are welcome.

Paranoia, ego and hypocrisy.

Of late I've noticed that people are getting intolerant.
Of late? A few hundred British guys came and ruled us for a few hundred years.

murali

 

[Record Player]

From a media perspective this is Entertainment and TRPs for them. In reality this is intolerable!!

Cant say anything more captain, I am devastated with our situation today! I've had it....

 

[asliarun]

My two cents - we are in the bottom of the pyramid of Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

And if you notice, "lack of prejudice" is on top of the pyramid.

On a side note, the bottom rung mentions "excretion". Even this level of basic hygiene and civic sense is a fundamental problem.

Sorry for being a downer about this. But the other aspect is also truly accepting who and what we are - without judgment and without shame (shame arises from judgment too). When we deny our behaviors, we tend to become hypocrites - which manifests in behavior such as being very touchy about our image to the outside world, having double standards, etc. Litmus test - how many people who will gladly date a girl will be equally open minded (or even supportive!) about their sister dating someone?

Here's a very interesting youtube video by Wilbur Sargunaraj - someone who truly tries to break at least one of these barriers. I genuinely admire this guy - even the fact that his videos are so deliberately tacky!

Edit: Sometimes I also feel that being truly non-judgmental about ourselves and about others (if we can be non-judgmental about ourselves, I feel we will automatically be non-judgmental towards others) is the pinnacle of the pyramid.

 

[ranjeetrain]

Of late I've noticed that people are getting intolerant.

A lot more to add. Dishonest, Corrupt, Irresponsible, Selfish, Hypocrites, the list just goes on.

My two cents - we are in the bottom of the pyramid of Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

And if you notice, "lack of prejudice" is on top of the pyramid.

On a side note, the bottom rung mentions "excretion". Even this level of basic hygiene and civic sense is a fundamental problem.

Sorry for being a downer about this. But the other aspect is also truly accepting who and what we are - without judgment and without shame (shame arises from judgment too). When we deny our behaviors, we tend to become hypocrites - which manifests in behavior such as being very touchy about our image to the outside world, having double standards, etc. Litmus test - how many people who will gladly date a girl will be equally open minded (or even supportive!) about their sister dating someone?

Here's a very interesting youtube video by Wilbur Sargunaraj - someone who truly tries to break at least one of these barriers. I genuinely admire this guy - even the fact that his videos are so deliberately tacky!

Edit: Sometimes I also feel that being truly non-judgmental about ourselves and about others (if we can be non-judgmental about ourselves, I feel we will automatically be non-judgmental towards others) is the pinnacle of the pyramid.

Hi Arun,

Your comments are a nice read. You always talk based on facts, a quality I really admire about you.

I beg to differ, however, with the part of your comment I have highlighted.

India is a huge country. The population is extremely diverse. And this diversity is not something of a text-book material. It's real. People are black, people are white. People speak Hindi, people speak English. There are Hindus, there are Muslims. There are complete illiterates, there are scholars of highest order. There are poorest, there are richest. There are noble people, there are crooks. There are peaceful people, there are violent. There are law-abiding people, there are rouge people. Indian population is so extremely diverse that no single rule, no single category, no single principal seems adequate to accommodate everyone. In such a scenario, to put everyone in to the lowest hierarchy of needs is a bit of too much of exaggeration. I can accept only the poorest, the most illiterate of India to belong to that need hierarchy. Most of Indian middle-class, which is probably the largest financial class of the world, easily belongs to the 3rd of the hierarchy.

I don't really take Moslow's hierarchy as a reference (IMHO, it is applicable primarily to western population), but that's besides the point. Majority of Indians who have lived in NA/Europe/Aus/NZ graduate to 4th and 5th level of that hierarchy after a few years. There is no official data that I can point you to in this regard, but the acceptance of Indians in key positions in USA (and not only technical jobs or technical field/role) is a very strong indication of this.

So, I wouldn't classify all of Indian population in one blanket category.

Btw, "lack of prejudice" has been at the center of many religions/beliefs that were born in the Indus civilization. So, definitely we were, once, among the most noble of human beings.

Poverty, hunger has the power to make a lot of difference, most of them being negative. Competition for living, survival, self-dependence has changed a lot of things in our society, most of it for the bad. The all-round decline in our social and moral values are burning proof of the same.

 

[asliarun]

Hi Ranjeet,

Those are some insightful thoughts you have shared.

I do feel that as a society, we have become more materialistic, and more focused on wealth, success, power etc. As a result, we have slid down the pyramid to the bottom rung. And this problem has become worse because the wealth disparity has become even more acute - thus even the relative prosperity of the middle class really rankles the lower-middle class.

A few decades ago, the disparity was not so much - in fact, even exposure and access to "foreign goods" was very very limited. So life was slower and simpler, and this allowed people to focus on more worthwhile pursuits than comparing "on paper" prices of their second and third apartments.

I even feel that ancient India was like this in many ways. In fact, our progress has quite firmly been downwards over the centuries and decades.

Of course, I am painting with a very broad brush and it will obviously not hold true for many segments of the population
You're probably right about the Maslow chart being more Western centric in nature, but haven't we largely become western in terms of day to day life and our pursuits?

 

[ranjeetrain]

When we say "Western", we usually imply - the way we dress, the way we talk, the kind of things we eat, the worldly things we chase. The term western is often misused (and not only in India, westerners are misunderstood almost in all of Asia). In the eastern sphere, the term has become synonymous with mostly negative virtues. We tend to think they are shallow people with little or no sense of culture, who have become proficient in dressing up and are powerful a--h----. Sharing dining table with them on a daily basis, I know that nothing can be further from the truth.

If we say we have become somewhat western, I'd say - Yes, somewhat in some ways. But if we say we have become largely western, I'd say - No, not even close. In the way of outward appearance, yes, we have. But Eastern brains are still very very differently wired than western brains. Deep inside we are very different from them, even today.

 

[captrajesh]

Of late? A few hundred British guys came and ruled us for a few hundred years.

Before that, uncouth marauders, Mongols, Mughals et al came in droves to loot, rape, maim and murder and even conquer us. All this has been possible because most of the small kingdoms that existed then were bickering and quarelling and some actually helped the invaders to set foot on their soils to get even with their neighbours. IMO, the British have actually did us a favour by establishing semblance of order and also united us as a Nation.

From a media perspective this is Entertainment and TRPs for them.

You are spot on.

the other aspect is also truly accepting who and what we are - without judgment and without shame (shame arises from judgment too). When we deny our behaviors, we tend to become hypocrites - which manifests in behavior such as being very touchy about our image to the outside world, having double standards, etc. Litmus test - how many people who will gladly date a girl will be equally open minded (or even supportive!) about their sister dating someone?

Edit: Sometimes I also feel that being truly non-judgmental about ourselves and about others (if we can be non-judgmental about ourselves, I feel we will automatically be non-judgmental towards others) is the pinnacle of the pyramid.

True that but unless we are judgemental (at least of us) how would we evolve as a person, as a citizen, as a human being?

My two cents - we are in the bottom of the pyramid of Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

And if you notice, "lack of prejudice" is on top of the pyramid.

On a side note, the bottom rung mentions "excretion". Even this level of basic hygiene and civic sense is a fundamental problem.

I beg to differ, however, with the part of your comment I have highlighted.

India is a huge country. The population is extremely diverse. And this diversity is not something of a text-book material. It's real. People are black, people are white. People speak Hindi, people speak English. There are Hindus, there are Muslims. There are complete illiterates, there are scholars of highest order. There are poorest, there are richest. There are noble people, there are crooks. There are peaceful people, there are violent. There are law-abiding people, there are rouge people. Indian population is so extremely diverse that no single rule, no single category, no single principal seems adequate to accommodate everyone. In such a scenario, to put everyone in to the lowest hierarchy of needs is a bit of too much of exaggeration. I can accept only the poorest, the most illiterate of India to belong to that need hierarchy. Most of Indian middle-class, which is probably the largest financial class of the world, easily belongs to the 3rd of the hierarchy.

So, I wouldn't classify all of Indian population in one blanket category.

I fully agree with Ranjeet. It may not be correct to bracket everyone into the last tier.

Btw, "lack of prejudice" has been at the center of many religions/beliefs that were born in the Indus civilization. So, definitely we were, once, among the most noble of human beings.

Poverty, hunger has the power to make a lot of difference, most of them being negative. Competition for living, survival, self-dependence has changed a lot of things in our society, most of it for the bad. The all-round decline in our social and moral values are burning proof of the same.

Very well said Ranjeet.

In fact, our progress has quite firmly been downwards over the centuries and decades.

Of course, I am painting with a very broad brush and it will obviously not hold true for many segments of the population

Agree with you on that account.

 

[oracle1974]

We don't have to look far; on the forum itself there seems to be lot of intolerance to "different views".

 

[captrajesh]

We don't have to look far; on the forum itself there seems to be lot of intolerance to "different views".

That's precisely what has given me inspiration to start this thread.

 

[Hari655]

What i believe...

Stop bothering...just lets live our life peacefully, if possible help others or just relax and do what we have to do.



"...one of the strongest motives that lead men to art and science is escape from everyday life with its painful crudity and hopeless dreariness, from the fetters of one's own ever-shifting desires. A finely tempered nature longs to escape from the personal life into the world of objective perception and thought."

Albert Einstein

 

[murali]

We don't have to look far; on the forum itself there seems to be lot of intolerance to "different views".

It depends how you look at it. For example, half a dozen guys start a thread on vintage turntables and keep on adding to it several times day in day out. It is perfectly acceptable and possible to appreciate their quest but the point is this is a public forum meant to share views and experiences, and most importantly leave the judgment factor to the reader. So a thread has to have a natural development by more people's participation and cannot become hijacked by a few trying to carry it for ever. Unfortunately, often this does not happen. People have their views and experiences but if they turn to overbear others, then it becomes ugly. It is not intolerance but some fundamentals to honor while participating in such forums. It is like a group discussion where everyone has to be given a chance to express his or her views.
In my limited experience here so far, I have not come across too many threads which smelt of intolerance. Arguments cannot be called intolerance, can you? More than intolerance, I would rather call some overbearing when some know-it-all people start destroying the spirit of a thread.
P.S. I have nothing against vintage turntables or their lovers and was only quoting an example. I do appreciate and respect those participants.

Bye for some weeks or months.
Enjoy your music.
murali

 

[oracle1974]

It depends how you look at it. For example, half a dozen guys start a thread on vintage turntables and keep on adding to it several times day in day out. It is perfectly acceptable and possible to appreciate their quest but the point is this is a public forum meant to share views and experiences, and most importantly leave the judgment factor to the reader. So a thread has to have a natural development by more people's participation and cannot become hijacked by a few trying to carry it for ever. Unfortunately, often this does not happen. People have their views and experiences but if they turn to overbear others, then it becomes ugly. It is not intolerance but some fundamentals to honor while participating in such forums. It is like a group discussion where everyone has to be given a chance to express his or her views.
In my limited experience here so far, I have not come across too many threads which smelt of intolerance. Arguments cannot be called intolerance, can you? More than intolerance, I would rather call some overbearing when some know-it-all people start destroying the spirit of a thread.


P.S. I have nothing against vintage turntables or their lovers and was only quoting an example. I do appreciate and respect those participants.

Bye for some weeks or months.
Enjoy your music.
murali

Without getting lost in semantics - intolerance / overbearing - i agree with you. The point is "to each one, his own". There is no one road to sonic nirvana (if there is anything like that). A public forum like this one should be for sharing one's experience and learning from each other's experience and not for thrusting one's experience on the other. regards.

 

[hemantwaghe]

Hi,
Thread is closed. Thanks ,all for participating.
ADMIN TAKE NOTE OF THIS.

why ? by closing you are showing how intolerant you are

 

[Fantastic]

And I was just getting ready to contribute to the issue !
Why close it ? Many more would like to join in. If the brick bats start flying you can consider requesting it to be closed !

I always felt that movies / TV programs and politicians are responsible to a great extent. By watching intolerance and fights and terrible situations on screen and TV ( even NEWS !) makes people insensitive to such issues over time and then participate in them eventually. When you see so much of it all year round, it must be OK to indulge in it also ! Right ?
Now even small kids see things they shouldn't , on TV. What do you expect them to do when they grow up. Chasing girls like goondas and harassing them is there to see every day on screen and TV. What's wrong in indulging in it ?
So people's minds are getting warped ! Maybe someone should put on the brakes regarding giving blanket permission to broadcast material that could affect peoples perception of what's OK and what's not !

 

[cha_indian]

Btw, "lack of prejudice" has been at the center of many religions/beliefs that were born in the Indus civilization. So, definitely we were, once, among the most noble of human beings.

Poverty, hunger has the power to make a lot of difference, most of them being negative. Competition for living, survival, self-dependence has changed a lot of things in our society, most of it for the bad. The all-round decline in our social and moral values are burning proof of the same.

I do agree that the basic Hindu/Buddhist philosophy is about lack of prejudice as the prequisite to the path to salvation or 'Moksha', then how and why did the concept of 'Varna' came into being. Varna/Caste is the root cause of most the evils in Hinduism. It is due to this 'Varna' system people got the jobs that they lacked talent and got it just because they belong to a particular 'Varna'. Brahmins all the jobs irrespective of talent, Kshtriyas got the 'Job' just because his father was kshtriya.. and so on. To me caste based prejudice is the worst form of racism and splinters the complete population into non performing groups feeding on other groups.

 

[Shivam]

ignorance and non musical discussion should be banned.

How do you ban ignorance?

My take on intolerance -
It is due to high population competing for the same limited resources and space.
It is due to trying to live up to the next door people (Jones).

(To an extent I feel, the same applies in forum too.)

 

[Santy]

More than intolerant, we are becoming more arrogant. I think they go hand in hand.

I believe it is largely because of population explosion and lack of education. We have been trained to fight our way ahead since childhood. Fittest will survive and the fitter ones get nourished with arrogance in due course. The I am better than you attitude that comes from insecurity feeling has bred intolerance and arrogance. Being polite has become an obligation. Being tolerant is thought of a weakness.

We have a fear that if we leave a little space ahead of us (on roads or queues), someone will squeeze themselves in so we tend to not give anyone an opportunity. We want the best seat in the theatre, in the bus, on the airplane, in a restaurant, in a park or even in the temple. Understandably, we tend to become intolerant against those who have similar interests.

Intolerance sometimes is a byproduct of the treatment men impart to women. Chauvinism makes it indigestible for men to admit womens views on any matter. And that becomes a habit.

I have observed, if someone is making someone else rich (by giving them business), they expect them to prostate in front of them. They consider it as their right to be impolite to those who benefit from the business relationship.

Arguments are considered to be combats. They are meant to be won. We have to have the last swing of the sword. If not its a defeat.

 

[asliarun]

Why have we become so ultra touchy and thin skinned? People are filing court cases for every imaginary religious "hurt". I thought only islamic fundamentalist countries were like this.

Someone rightly said that google's "I'm feeling lucky" button should be replaced with "I'm feeling offended".

 

[murali]

More than intolerant, we are becoming more arrogant. I think they go hand in hand.

I believe it is largely because of population explosion and lack of education. We have been trained to fight our way ahead since childhood. Fittest will survive and the fitter ones get nourished with arrogance in due course. The I am better than you attitude that comes from insecurity feeling has bred intolerance and arrogance. Being polite has become an obligation. Being tolerant is thought of a weakness.

We have a fear that if we leave a little space ahead of us (on roads or queues), someone will squeeze themselves in so we tend to not give anyone an opportunity. We want the best seat in the theatre, in the bus, on the airplane, in a restaurant, in a park or even in the temple. Understandably, we tend to become intolerant against those who have similar interests.

Intolerance sometimes is a byproduct of the treatment men impart to women. Chauvinism makes it indigestible for men to admit womens views on any matter. And that becomes a habit.

I have observed, if someone is making someone else rich (by giving them business), they expect them to prostate in front of them. They consider it as their right to be impolite to those who benefit from the business relationship.

Arguments are considered to be combats. They are meant to be won. We have to have the last swing of the sword. If not its a defeat.

Lack of education??? Lol.
I know several NRI's, educated and with white-collared jobs in the Middle East, who had spent decades there, earned crores of rupees, have become residents now in India, but still do not pay any Income Tax. Reason? They made sure their children also became NRI's now happily living in the Western world, and all the money parents earned are now put in children's names. So neither parents nor children become taxable! Whereas, the majority NRI's lack education, but make sure all their money go home, mostly legitimately, and so keep their wealth in India. Now, who is the gainer and who is the loser? Who wields power and who is subject to all the harassments under law? You can use education in whichever way it suits you.
Back to our hifi and vision forum. People open several threads with limited money to spend but quest for Mark Levinson-like built equipment and pose all sorts of questions. Yes, no doubt you can buy good-sounding equipment for a few thousands of rupees. But it is a mass-market with very little difference in quality. So rather than writing thousands of threads and getting confused with others' advices and views, they should look for the best value for their money from their prospective sellers. The scenario changes when you are willing to step up your budget as it now becomes more of an investment and you can start hearing differences and can choose more wisely.
If I project these views, does it become intolerance???

murali