What system should one buy

[arj]

The things have changed now. sidvee has got it correct. Now with the digital music, the source has very limited change after a certain base limit. Go for the best speakers and amp combo that you can afford and get a decent source to go along with that. On my recent setup, I can hardly make out the difference between a Linn Akurate DS (which is not an inexpensive source to me) and a NAD cd player.

HI Shivam,
at the Level Sidvee's system is , the level of contribution is the Maximum from the room and incremental benefits from source Minimum
But for anyone starting out, one needs to spend the Maximum on the source. regarding Amp and speaker- not that they are not important but you can see the effect of a source upgrade on almost any speaker but the converse is not true as pointed out by Dr Bass

Room acoustics is something you optimize and it can be done with Most speakers and what you need to spend is Time more than money

But for the $$ source is what you sill see as the greatest upgrade. There used to be folks who have decent Amps/speakers and then run them with DVDPs ! that is a waste of money on the amps/speakers

I am pretty surprised about the above. I used to have a NAD long time back I got it modded while i was in singapore and it gave a jump in performance. then i got a Wadia which was another leap and then another with the Reimyo which is at a different level .
The Linn should be between the Wadia and the Reimyo and there should be a difference and should be apparent in a AP system since Siva himself has played around with them and I have heard them thru his own speakers. Also NADs design on CDPs is not great (as told to me by the person who modded it for me)

The Arcams/CAs in the same range are actually better

YOur point around Sources being cheaper than before is correct and a lot of the DACs today perform at a level which was not thinkable in the past

 

[hydra]

...

hydra, I think less changes and more stays the same. Unless one makes a major change in equipment, eg to something that has a greatly extended frequency response (adding a subwoofer?), or suffers a complete change in music taste, surely there can't be that much difference? If there is that much difference, then the previous equipment can't have been as "hifi" as we thought --- and that is something that has happened to me.

If a person puts a lot of effort into speaker positioning, etc, they will be doing so with the room acoustics as they are. If they then go in for room treatment, then they may have to do the positioning all over again, as they will no longer need to compensate for room faults.

In reality, I suppose there must be a certain amount of leap-frogging both approaches, but if I ever have (and I probably won't) the luxury of having, let alone building from scratch, a proper listening room, it'll get treated, with the aim that it should accommodate any equipment, from modest to grand.

I'm just dreaming

Yes, come to think of it, I do think I somewhat put my foot in my mouth in my last post. A lot of the treatment can be considered as constant for all setups.

The corner basstraps would definitely not be different across setups as they would be based on room measurements. Treatment for the floor could also be considered as a constant. I don't think these two major heads of treatment would mess even with speakers that prefer minimum room treatment.

The first & secondary reflection points would change based on placement of speakers and the listening seat. The need and type of treatment for the ceiling, the walls behind the speakers and the walls behind the listener would also be somewhat varied based on the equipment.

I too am saying this with a very limited knowledge (that too mostly theoretical) of room acoustics treatment.

 

[arj]

The corner bass-traps would definitely not be different across setups as they would be based on room measurements. Treatment for the floor could also be considered as a constant. I don't think these two major heads of treatment would mess even with speakers that prefer minimum room treatment.

Hi Hydra, In my experience bass traps are double edged..it corrects and also takes away unless it is really measured/designed well so need to be careful.
usually its the lower midrange that suffers (harmonics)
I would prefer not having it and playing with placement to the extent one can

 

[Shivam]

What is the rest of your system ?

Tried this with three combos in different rooms-
Cary tube amps with DIY two way speakers
NAD amp with Wharfedale speakers
AP two-way active system.

Not the best systems but they have all been very pleasing to my ears. In fact I have recently sold my Linn Akurate DS since the difference with MF M1clic was minimal. Maybe my ears are aging but I am enjoying music more and more.

 

[prem]

As can be seen there are two schools of thought. One group prefers spending more on a speaker whereas the other on a source. In the first post i had put a higher proportion but equal spends on both source and speakers. I feel when buying the first time it makes sense to have an equitable spend. As one gets familiar and begins to develop their own preferences, he or she can buy accordingly.

Also serious room treatment is something i would suggest at stage two. Its very important for one to hear their system at home and over a period of time learn how it can be improved. At that stage room treatment comes in. For beginners it could get too confusing. I think treating a room is one of the most difficult things to do and takes a lot of time to understand. Till such time IMO simple things like rugs, book shelves, plants should suffice.

 

[himadri]

I would also put equal emphasis on speakers and source based on the improvements I noticed when I went to the revealing Usher mini dancers from the Deftech bipolars and as I added the Rega TT.
Speaker-room compatibility in the bass/midbass affected the sound quality the most in all the setups.
Maximising the potential of the components with proper choice of power cables/interconnects/speaker cables have also given results almost as much as an upgrade of a component.
cheers

 

[vkirti]

In the first post i had put a higher proportion but equal spends on both source and speakers. I feel when buying the first time it makes sense to have an equitable spend. As one gets familiar and begins to develop their own preferences, he or she can buy accordingly.

I think Prem has hit the nail on the head, for the first purchase, especially when the amount of money to be spent is limited the source and the speakers should have equal importance, as a bad quality source will really waste the money that one has spent on the other components. If need be one should wait for some more time instead of buying a compromised component to start with.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

... I feel when buying the first time it makes sense to have an equitable spend. As one gets familiar and begins to develop their own preferences, he or she can buy accordingly.

For the first time buy, yes. After that, it is a leapfrog game, buying as we can afford, or not missing some great deal, but never upgrading the whole system in one go, unless we have a very lucky windfall!

 

[prem]

Thad, IMO, only a handful change their system as they go along. So i feel the first purchase is fairly important

 

[Kushanava]

The theory of source first or speakers first are like chicken and egg.hyeah:

To judge a good speaker , you need a good source and vice-verse.

So spending equal amount on a source and speakers always holds true , independent of which point you start from.So for a person with a a budget in mind but without an intention to upgrade (hard to find those audiophiles) can start any where.

But if you intend to spend money in bursts , my thought is to spend the biggest amount on the speakers to start with ..this is were you know what presentation you like once you demo the speaker against a high end source at a dealers place.Now this would definitely cause a compromised purchase on the source , because you need to look for a suitable amp to drive your choice of speakers. You can have a compromised source like a Asus Xonar STX/Arcam Cd players/Old Marantz or Philips players to start with.

I myself have made a mistake of choosing the amp first and have to build a system around it with lesser choice of speakers ...

The main reason I am inclined towards this approach of speakers first is due to the frequency at which Technology is changing today.The changes in the source side is very frequent and the valuation of dacs and cd players diminish steeply as compared to the speakers.

 

[prem]

Since there has been a discussion of source here, i thought i would share an experience of mine.

I got into cd playback somewhere in 1989. Between 89 and 97, my source was either a Marantz or a Sony cd player. Decent stuff but nothing exceptional. My Bollywood cds were a mix of UK origin and Indian origin. The Indian stuff also sounded decent. Then i got myself a Mark Levinson transport and DAC. I put in an Indian made Bollywood cd. I was thoroughly disappointed. It sounded bad. I cursed myself for having spent so much money. I didnt even want to hear my system anymore. I was figuring out how to get rid of my transport and dac. But no luck. Then i put on an UK made Bollywood cd. It sounded gorgeous. Never heard a cd sound this good. I was stunned. I decided to dig deeper to figure out what the problem was. Thats when i realised the Indian made cds had compression which was showing up badly when played on Levinson. Had the same experience when i played some of the remastered English cds. Its the first time i realised the importance of software. From then on i sourced most Bollywood cds from UK and hunted down the uncompressed first presses of Engish cds on ebay. These were all manufactured in 84 and 85, either in Germany or Japan.

The reason for sharing this is that as you improve your source, the limitation of your software might show up.

Ditto for lps too. I got 2 presses of a Bollywood title. Both sounded equally good on a Technics player. Visually both looked near mint. However when i played the two Lps on my EMT, one sounded ok, whereas the other sounded very nice with dynamics intact.. Apparently there was groove wear on one lp which the EMT was showing up. So many times a good source might compel you to upgrade your software

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Just wondering....

Can the source component and the speakers be equated with one another in terms of price? Is the costing of a wooden cabinet, drivers and a small amount of circuitry comparable to a metal box, pcb, components, etc? If a person chooses a turntable as source, could the price, in any way, be equated to a DAC?

just odd thoughts...

 

[arj]

Just wondering....

Can the source component and the speakers be equated with one another in terms of price? Is the costing of a wooden cabinet, drivers and a small amount of circuitry comparable to a metal box, pcb, components, etc? If a person chooses a turntable as source, could the price, in any way, be equated to a DAC?

just odd thoughts...

No it cannot be. But since we are starting with a Budget and not the SQ, this is jsut a rough estimation.

Makes it all the more difficult in the cases of TTS ve Dacs as the performance to cost of DAC have been improving due to tech and of TTs the other way due to lower demand and lack of mass market appeal influencing component parts. and this only changes with years

Anyway since the medium itself (LP Vs Digital files) are different and hence different availability/cost/quality, this comparison may not be too relevant

 

[arj]

. I feel when buying the first time it makes sense to have an equitable spend. As one gets familiar and begins to develop their own preferences, he or she can buy accordingly.

that does put things in perspective. even true of the person does not Upgrade later as the system would still be balanced.

 

[ESP]

Very good suggestion by prem. Though the purpose of the thread has been watered down by going into another direction, what all need to keep in mind is, first & foremost anyone beginning the audio journey needs to do LEGWORK.

Unless and until he/she does not go and expose oneself with the kind of systems prem has discussed, there is no point. Forums like these are but guidelines to give some inputs but ultimately one has to take the call with respect to
a) requirement
b) budget
c) sourcing of the various gears either locally or within the country/outside
d) patience

once the desired system is realised & acquired, then the other aspects discussed in the posts can take the matter further, otherwise you end up discussing about a cart without the horse

 

[manoj.p]

Since there has been a discussion of source here, i thought i would share an experience of mine.

I got into cd playback somewhere in 1989. Between 89 and 97, my source was either a Marantz or a Sony cd player. Decent stuff but nothing exceptional. My Bollywood cds were a mix of UK origin and Indian origin. The Indian stuff also sounded decent. Then i got myself a Mark Levinson transport and DAC. I put in an Indian made Bollywood cd. I was thoroughly disappointed. It sounded bad. I cursed myself for having spent so much money. I didnt even want to hear my system anymore. I was figuring out how to get rid of my transport and dac. But no luck. Then i put on an UK made Bollywood cd. It sounded gorgeous. Never heard a cd sound this good. I was stunned. I decided to dig deeper to figure out what the problem was. Thats when i realised the Indian made cds had compression which was showing up badly when played on Levinson. Had the same experience when i played some of the remastered English cds. Its the first time i realised the importance of software. From then on i sourced most Bollywood cds from UK and hunted down the uncompressed first presses of Engish cds on ebay. These were all manufactured in 84 and 85, either in Germany or Japan.

The reason for sharing this is that as you improve your source, the limitation of your software might show up.

Ditto for lps too. I got 2 presses of a Bollywood title. Both sounded equally good on a Technics player. Visually both looked near mint. However when i played the two Lps on my EMT, one sounded ok, whereas the other sounded very nice with dynamics intact.. Apparently there was groove wear on one lp which the EMT was showing up. So many times a good source might compel you to upgrade your software

+1.

This is very much true as you move up the chain and have a transparent gear. It does happen for amps, speakers, DAC. More transparent these things are, we have more fidelity, clarity and details. But at the same time, the system will be less forgiving for bad sources and reveal the flaws. Even a properly treated room will make a huge improvements to sound, but also show the shortcomings in the source.

That's the price to pay, but its totally worth it.

 

[koushik]

I am late to check in and wow, this thread is growing by leaps and bounce. Good to see thoughtful and quality thread, which getting rarer these days.

I was in the camp of Speaker first, then Amp which can drive it without coloring it too much, then source. Room never came into account. Not that I didn't know about room is most important and all that stuff. But it is living/bed room and there is no reverberation because lots of stuff in there.

Present days, the scenario(camp?) hasn't really changed but got a bit reorganised with all the experienced I gathered from spending (time & money) on my hi-fi gears, listening and reading from people like you all.

You have to get a matched neutral (to your ear) pair of Amp and Speakers. A heavenly match that will be like a white canvas. It will display whatever color (source) you paint on it. I got mine after 13/14 years of experimenting. To site an example, for my taste, I would stick to Quad and B&W combo. I have heard Quad 306 and 606 with various combinations of older B&W and the SIGNATURE is exactly the same. Quad with B&W 601-S3, 602-S2, CDM1-SE, Matrix 802-S2 and the signature is same. Of course I will grow from 602-S2 but it will be older B&Ws. Unless I get another heavenly combo.

You will get your heavenly combo on which you will put source and check whether you like it or not. Amp will completely disappear and most of the time will not cross your mind. You know it is there doing its job beautifully but doing nothing else to effect your sound.

Source (and over-all sound) grows on you slowly, so one need to spend sometime to judge the source. It is long journey and I am still traveling to find the correct source.

Now the new thing. Room acoustics. It is by far very important than most people think. Regular items in the room helps you to tame down reverberation and absorbs high to mid frequencies but the bass response suffers in any room which can only be treated by proper bass traps. There is a saying, you just can't have enough bass traps. Soon I will start a thread on this to show the work in progress and exchange knowledge.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Remember that everything in the room is also vibrating. This has always presented an impossible situation for me, as I am a hoarding, clutter, untidy person, and even if I ever had a dedicated listening space, a circle of things would spread out from my chair.

Sometimes I like to pretend that the heaps of mess around my PC corner are there to be sound diffusers :lol:

 

[manoj.p]

Remember that everything in the room is also vibrating. This has always presented an impossible situation for me, as I am a hoarding, clutter, untidy person, and even if I ever had a dedicated listening space, a circle of things would spread out from my chair.

Sometimes I like to pretend that the heaps of mess around my PC corner are there to be sound diffusers :lol:

And it is acting as diffuser. You can stop pretending now.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

thanks prem for very good points. wonder if even half of what you recommend is adhered to by most first time buyers. most are clueless and end up buying anything recommended by either their friend, business associate, consultant, interior desinger or some clown of the sort.
till one does not know what one wants, it is timewaste. sadly currently we have lost people roaming aimlessly not only on forum but also outside of forum.
best part is some forum members are there to make matters worse by confosing the life out of simpletons even more. but that is a forum and one must bear the pit falls of such forums too.

sadly, not everybody has access to friend like you to guide him/her.

thank you sir. you are good person.

When I bought my first hifi, there was no one to ask and no internet. I beat my head against the wall trying to compare specifications and reviews in magazines (there wasn't even anyone to tell me to just go and listen ). In the end, I just went into a shop and told them how much I had to spend. It was a good shop (the original Richer Sounds shop, London Bridge, London) and I think I was lucky with what I got.

However many people one asks, is the potential amount of different advise one gets and, within reason, the only advice I consider wrong for a newcomer is that they have to have ten times the amount of cash they actually have. Subject to a basic minimum, one can always start with what one has got.