elangoas
Well-Known Member
Think Pioneer VSX 930 is missing DTS:X.. Hope you factored this feature...
Your inputs, please
- Thread starter venkatcr
- Start date
@venkatcr do you know the power specs of Pioneer vsx 930, 2 channel driven into 8 ohm? I'm considering either the Marantz 5010 or Onkyo 747 - any thoughts here? Wondering if 930 might also suit my requirements (movies only, dedicated room, Klipsch ref 62 speakers)
@raghu thats 1 channel driven. It will be much lower with 2 channel driven and would probably go into protection if u tried to drive all 7 channels simultaneously.
2 channel into 8 ohm is a good benchmark to compare. If a model isnt showing these specs, chances are it will be <70w. For the above criteria Marantz 5010 has 100 w/c and Onkyo 747 does 110 w/c
2 channel into 8 ohm is a good benchmark to compare. If a model isnt showing these specs, chances are it will be <70w. For the above criteria Marantz 5010 has 100 w/c and Onkyo 747 does 110 w/c
@sash
Let's for a minute believe what manufacturers put in their specs. X Wpc at 8 ohm with 2 channels driven at 20 - 20Khz range. Let's also believe it has the muscle to source the current and not lead to clipping.
I say believe because it is almost impossible to quantitatively measure this at home with speakers. You will need a measurement bench.
By itself X Wpc on an amp means little as we need to pair it up with speakers. The important spec for a speaker is its sensitivity rated a Y dB/W/m (SPL rating)
When we convert Watts on an amp to dBW we can do some back of the envelope calculation by addition.
1W - 0 dBW
2W - 3 dBW
4W - 6 dBW
8W - 9 dBW
16W - 12dBW
32W - 15dBW
64W - 18dBW
128W - 21dBW
Any amp between 60-90W is 18/19dBW
Any amp between 90-130W is 20/21dBW
Now you can add this to your speaker SPL and get an idea of how much sound it will produce at what input.
Klipsch Reference 62 ii (your speakers) has a SPL rating of 97
KEF R300 (my speakers) has a SPL rating of 88
In a HT setting, if I remember correctly 85dB SPL is what is the comfortable limit for the loudest passages in the movie (beyond which it will sound very very loud). To get 85dB at listener position lets assume that the reference level should be 105dB at speaker. Klipsch can easily produce this with a few watts of power but KEF will require more power.
So all this said, 70-110W is more than enough for your speakers.
As venkat says, now it is time to listen and decide amongst Pioneer/Onkyo/Marantz/others and decide based on other factors/features.
Cheers,
Raghu
Let's for a minute believe what manufacturers put in their specs. X Wpc at 8 ohm with 2 channels driven at 20 - 20Khz range. Let's also believe it has the muscle to source the current and not lead to clipping.
I say believe because it is almost impossible to quantitatively measure this at home with speakers. You will need a measurement bench.
By itself X Wpc on an amp means little as we need to pair it up with speakers. The important spec for a speaker is its sensitivity rated a Y dB/W/m (SPL rating)
When we convert Watts on an amp to dBW we can do some back of the envelope calculation by addition.
1W - 0 dBW
2W - 3 dBW
4W - 6 dBW
8W - 9 dBW
16W - 12dBW
32W - 15dBW
64W - 18dBW
128W - 21dBW
Any amp between 60-90W is 18/19dBW
Any amp between 90-130W is 20/21dBW
Now you can add this to your speaker SPL and get an idea of how much sound it will produce at what input.
Klipsch Reference 62 ii (your speakers) has a SPL rating of 97
KEF R300 (my speakers) has a SPL rating of 88
In a HT setting, if I remember correctly 85dB SPL is what is the comfortable limit for the loudest passages in the movie (beyond which it will sound very very loud). To get 85dB at listener position lets assume that the reference level should be 105dB at speaker. Klipsch can easily produce this with a few watts of power but KEF will require more power.
So all this said, 70-110W is more than enough for your speakers.
As venkat says, now it is time to listen and decide amongst Pioneer/Onkyo/Marantz/others and decide based on other factors/features.
Cheers,
Raghu
Waiting to hear your opinion after your audition. BTW, what are your HT speakers? (apologies for asking this to a HFV legend
)@raghupb you are right and i have seen this table on the Klipsch website too. But i find that it is not so straight forward. Klipsch themselves say normal power handling is 125 W and peak power handling is 500W for RF 62. On the Klipsch forums i have read the Klipsch engineers saying a certain receiver is underpowered for a certain model. Sensitivity ratings are specified for certain frequency range is what i have heard. To get the best out of your speakers across freq range, good power output is needed. Almost all dealers have said this too.
I spent about one hour with a very nice Pioneer dealer - Mr. Paneerselvam of MN Electronics in Aalandur, Chennai. He is also called Max Electronics.
He has a SC-LX58 connected Dali 7.1 speaker set, a Pioneer Blu-ray player, a projector. The screen was roughly 120 inches in a well set up demo room.
We started the demo with a 3D version of Avengers. I was impressed with the immersive sound created by the AVR. When the Tessaract came alive, you could feel the rays cutting through your body. The best was when Loki arrives, kills a few guards, and leaves with the Tessaract case, a few electrical sparks fall on the floor. In spite of a few seconds of high intensity sound, you could clearly hear the tinkle of sparks hitting the floor.
The next was an old favourite of mine - The Hunted starring Tommy Lee Jones and Benicio Del Toro. Unfortunately, I only have a DVD version.
There is a scene titled 'No Reverence'. Two hunters are traversing a jungle chasing a deer. They, unfortunately for them, cross a waterfall and wander into the area that Aaron Hallam considers his.
The sound of the jungle, the crunch of moss under the hunters's feet was clear. The breaking of twigs was sharp enough to make you jump. When the hunters cross the waterfall, the sound was powerful enough to make you feel as if you are getting wet.
But the best the yet to come.
When the hunters enter Aaron's area he does not like it and starts hunting them. He taunts them whispering that it is incorrect to use to gun to kill a unarmed animal. ' When you kill with your own hands there is a reverence. There's no reverence in what you do.'. The hunters are goaded to chase Aaron. Aaron challenges them and says he will kill them with his hands and knife.
Not believing Aaron, one of the hunters start chasing shadows as Aaron flits between trees and shadows. As the hunter moves near a tree, a knife thrown by Aaron thuds into the tree shocking the hunter. I know this scene well as I have seen it hundreds of times. In this system, you can clearly hear the knife slicing through the air from behind you and thudding into the tree. In a way I sensed that I could hear the knife slicing into the wood. The clarity of the sound was that good.
In a few seconds all mayhem starts as Aaron and the hunters start chasing each other. With the LX58, the sound of the gun shot were sharp, accurate and die immediately. That us exactly the way I want it. I was quite impressed. As Aaron moved through the jungle, you can clearly hear his breathing. To me it felt as if I was traversing through the jungle side by side with Benicio Del Toro.
Next I wanted to listen to some music. I started first with Die Fledermaus, an Overture of Johann Strauss from the album - 2002 New Years' Concert played by the Wiener Philamoniker conducted by Seiji Ozawa. Switching to 2 channel, the LX58 played the music and clarity that was way beyond what you can expect from an AVR. The sound stage was close to 180 degrees and reached to your left and right even when you were some 10-12 feet away from the speakers.
Next I played a ripped version of Rabba from the movie Heropanti. Again the LX59 showed it forte playing the song with vigour. The background music surrounded you and Mohit Chauhan's voice was dead center. When compared to Die Fledermaus, the separation was not that great. At the same time the voice and instruments were never muddled.
The only draw back was the enhancement of high pitch in dialogs. But since this came across in all movies, I think it was an issue with the center speaker. Or maybe Paneer Selvan had not tuned the AVR well.
At the end of one hour and some rigorous work out, the AVR was cool to touch. Paneer Selvam was telling me that only the best of components have been used in the AVR, and that was believable.
I am going for the Pioneer. Only point now is whether it will be 930 or the LX59. I am getting a good price for the 930. !!
Cheers
He has a SC-LX58 connected Dali 7.1 speaker set, a Pioneer Blu-ray player, a projector. The screen was roughly 120 inches in a well set up demo room.
We started the demo with a 3D version of Avengers. I was impressed with the immersive sound created by the AVR. When the Tessaract came alive, you could feel the rays cutting through your body. The best was when Loki arrives, kills a few guards, and leaves with the Tessaract case, a few electrical sparks fall on the floor. In spite of a few seconds of high intensity sound, you could clearly hear the tinkle of sparks hitting the floor.
The next was an old favourite of mine - The Hunted starring Tommy Lee Jones and Benicio Del Toro. Unfortunately, I only have a DVD version.
There is a scene titled 'No Reverence'. Two hunters are traversing a jungle chasing a deer. They, unfortunately for them, cross a waterfall and wander into the area that Aaron Hallam considers his.
The sound of the jungle, the crunch of moss under the hunters's feet was clear. The breaking of twigs was sharp enough to make you jump. When the hunters cross the waterfall, the sound was powerful enough to make you feel as if you are getting wet.
But the best the yet to come.
When the hunters enter Aaron's area he does not like it and starts hunting them. He taunts them whispering that it is incorrect to use to gun to kill a unarmed animal. ' When you kill with your own hands there is a reverence. There's no reverence in what you do.'. The hunters are goaded to chase Aaron. Aaron challenges them and says he will kill them with his hands and knife.
Not believing Aaron, one of the hunters start chasing shadows as Aaron flits between trees and shadows. As the hunter moves near a tree, a knife thrown by Aaron thuds into the tree shocking the hunter. I know this scene well as I have seen it hundreds of times. In this system, you can clearly hear the knife slicing through the air from behind you and thudding into the tree. In a way I sensed that I could hear the knife slicing into the wood. The clarity of the sound was that good.
In a few seconds all mayhem starts as Aaron and the hunters start chasing each other. With the LX58, the sound of the gun shot were sharp, accurate and die immediately. That us exactly the way I want it. I was quite impressed. As Aaron moved through the jungle, you can clearly hear his breathing. To me it felt as if I was traversing through the jungle side by side with Benicio Del Toro.
Next I wanted to listen to some music. I started first with Die Fledermaus, an Overture of Johann Strauss from the album - 2002 New Years' Concert played by the Wiener Philamoniker conducted by Seiji Ozawa. Switching to 2 channel, the LX58 played the music and clarity that was way beyond what you can expect from an AVR. The sound stage was close to 180 degrees and reached to your left and right even when you were some 10-12 feet away from the speakers.
Next I played a ripped version of Rabba from the movie Heropanti. Again the LX59 showed it forte playing the song with vigour. The background music surrounded you and Mohit Chauhan's voice was dead center. When compared to Die Fledermaus, the separation was not that great. At the same time the voice and instruments were never muddled.
The only draw back was the enhancement of high pitch in dialogs. But since this came across in all movies, I think it was an issue with the center speaker. Or maybe Paneer Selvan had not tuned the AVR well.
At the end of one hour and some rigorous work out, the AVR was cool to touch. Paneer Selvam was telling me that only the best of components have been used in the AVR, and that was believable.
I am going for the Pioneer. Only point now is whether it will be 930 or the LX59. I am getting a good price for the 930. !!
Cheers
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spirovious
Well-Known Member
Venkat one query, you wrote both pioneer models in review.Was lx59 too in demo?
darshanjoshi
Active Member
I don't think 930 can be compared or can come even close to LX series.
No. I auditioned the 58 only. That is not available for purchase anymore. So, if I decide, I have to get the 59 only.
Cheers
I am not too sure about that. The 930 has got equally good reviews and is the flagship of the Pioneer regular AVRs. It has the same amplifier, maybe with a little lesser power.
Cheers
Did the dealer not have the 930? How i wish you had auditioned 930 too
I did some research and i reason that the power numbers for vsx 930 for 8 ohm, 2 channel driven, 20hz-20khz should be around 90 watts. This should put it in the league of Yamaha 67x and is a very respectable number.
Power numbers for similar criteria for Marantz 5010 is 100 W and the Onkyo 747 is 110 W.
I did some research and i reason that the power numbers for vsx 930 for 8 ohm, 2 channel driven, 20hz-20khz should be around 90 watts. This should put it in the league of Yamaha 67x and is a very respectable number.
Power numbers for similar criteria for Marantz 5010 is 100 W and the Onkyo 747 is 110 W.
90/100/110W amps are all in the 20dBW range.
Any intelligent AVR/amp (most of them these days) will go into protection mode way before you can get to max ratings.
Current overload protection kicks in much before thermal overload protection and AVRs can be stubborn mules when trying to overwork them.
My guess at around 14-17dBW depending on speakers/content.
Cheers,
Raghu
Any intelligent AVR/amp (most of them these days) will go into protection mode way before you can get to max ratings.
Current overload protection kicks in much before thermal overload protection and AVRs can be stubborn mules when trying to overwork them.
My guess at around 14-17dBW depending on speakers/content.
Cheers,
Raghu
Thanks raghu. My intention is not to drive them to their max but there should be enough headroom. For example, i should be able to watch a movie with about 30-40% volume gain which means for huge dynamic swings, there is enough head room without straining the amp. I understand speaker sensitivity helps here but knowing you have enough power gives you that comfort.
Sash,
If the AVR can perform well at about 10dbW then it should have head room up to 14-17dBW.
The AVRs venkat and you are looking at, promise this kind of headroom.
Good that you guys are not in a hurry to wrap things up quickly. This approach lets you make an informed decision and not have buyer's remorse
Cheers,
Raghu
If the AVR can perform well at about 10dbW then it should have head room up to 14-17dBW.
The AVRs venkat and you are looking at, promise this kind of headroom.
Good that you guys are not in a hurry to wrap things up quickly. This approach lets you make an informed decision and not have buyer's remorse
Cheers,
Raghu
Sash, in the demo, the LX58 was driver at about 30% of it's capability. As Raghu said, that left quite a lot of headroom.
The 930 should be able to drive speakers rated upto a max of 100 watts easily.
Cheers
I have decided to go in for the LX59. The reasoning is as follows:
1. For a rough 40K additional I get enough and more power to not worry.
2. I get all the audio codecs that would be fashionable for the next 3-4 years.
3. I get pre out for tube amplification of audio, if needed. I am seeing if I can get a simple and small tube based power amp that outputs some 10-15 watts.
4. I am fondly hoping this would suffice for both movies and audio.
5. I can use Android and other devices for RC and lock the AVR's RC away. I hate them.
6. I am planning to get a 7" tab and control my HTPC, Audio PC, and the AVR from that.
7. I can install a 7.2.2 by end 2016 when I have some money and don't have to worry about a new AVR then. That would need some 1-2 lakhs in terms of civil work and re-wiring. Also may go in for a projector then.
The only thing that is nagging me is what will be offered in LX60 when it come out in May-June, 2016.
Your comments?
Thanks
Ha Ha. Something like that, yes. I buy something today, and I see a 'you must get this feature' in next year's model and you feel you have been taken for a ride!!
The 930 should be able to drive speakers rated upto a max of 100 watts easily.
Cheers
I have decided to go in for the LX59. The reasoning is as follows:
1. For a rough 40K additional I get enough and more power to not worry.
2. I get all the audio codecs that would be fashionable for the next 3-4 years.
3. I get pre out for tube amplification of audio, if needed. I am seeing if I can get a simple and small tube based power amp that outputs some 10-15 watts.
4. I am fondly hoping this would suffice for both movies and audio.
5. I can use Android and other devices for RC and lock the AVR's RC away. I hate them.
6. I am planning to get a 7" tab and control my HTPC, Audio PC, and the AVR from that.
7. I can install a 7.2.2 by end 2016 when I have some money and don't have to worry about a new AVR then. That would need some 1-2 lakhs in terms of civil work and re-wiring. Also may go in for a projector then.
The only thing that is nagging me is what will be offered in LX60 when it come out in May-June, 2016.
Your comments?
Thanks
Ha Ha. Something like that, yes. I buy something today, and I see a 'you must get this feature' in next year's model and you feel you have been taken for a ride!!
Last edited by a moderator:
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