Power cables - am bewildered!

[keith_correa]

Wait, wait, don't go yet.

I meant "relevant" to my original question. Of course all posts were maybe "relevant" BUT not to my question. Nikhil was the only person who provided a link which provided an answer to my question. How "correct" that answer is, is open for discussion and will take a better informed person than me to refute it.

No,the word that I was looking for is not "positive". It was "relevant". But maybe I should have worded it "relevant to my question" rather than plain "relevant". I'll concede that.

And yes, I found Kanwars post irrelevant to my question and the subject of this thread. Now, if he had refuted Caelin's statements/claims/explanations specific to the question posed by me and if he had explained why he refuted them it would be relevant, IMO.

Now, just because I said that posts were "irrelevant" is not to be taken that they are not informative and is certainly no cause for indignation.

I think many of you folks have missed the point of my original post. I suggest to you "indignant" folks - read it again, read the responses and tell me - has ANYONE posted anything which is relevant to my question.

Enough said. Carry on folks. Or don't. I have clarified my position.

 

[keith_correa]

I too wonder the same. Keith, sorry to say but I feel you could be a little more considerate in your posts.

Maybe. What to do, I'm like that only

As if the only one who has that perfect answer to the original question should write here.

No need for a perfect answer. An answer to the question will do.

Given such terms and conditions floated here, the only way to "stick to the topic" is to quote the original post and say 'yes', or give an external link which claims to be the 'encyclopedia' of the topic discussed.

When one does not know the answer but can provide a link which has an answer, sure, it will be appreciated. And the "encyclopedia" stuff is plain uncalled for and dare I say it - "irrelevant"

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

So I've been wondering [which in itself is dangerous becoz Keith and wondering don't go well together] about fancy power cords.

So have many of us.

... ... ...

I totally get it that if there were power "conditioners" employed - the power is "conditioned" and then it would make sense to use a fancy pants cable from the "conditioner" to the equipment but if not, what is the point???

There's a premise there, and that is that, given "conditioned" power, a fancy-pants cable would keep it conditioned better than an ordinary power lead.

The ensuing conversation seems very relevant to whether that premise is correct or not. If it is not, the whole thing fails, so it seems relevant to me.

(give that, I'd be the first to admit that I can't resist occasional tangential shooting off at the mouth, but hey, that happens on forums, I'm not the only one )

 

[jls001]

(give that, I'd be the first to admit that I can't resist occasional tangential shooting off at the mouth, but hey, that happens on forums, I'm not the only one )

Thou art totally forgiven thy transgressions, at least by me:lol:


In other news:
Now playing: Springsteen's "67 Channels And Nothing's On"

 

[kanwar]

Then it arrives to the switches through who knows what wire at home. And then for the last mile [feet actually] people claim that fancy pants cables make a difference? How?? Elaborate shielding! OFC copper! Braiding techniques! EMI & RFI prevention techniques! I can understand that the purpose of these techniques is to eliminate "garbage" getting in from the switch connections till it reaches the equipment BUT what about the "garbage" that is getting in till the point of the switch? Do all of these techniques actually eliminate that "garbage" that is already in there and exists at the point of the switch?

Keith

Cables cannot Eliminate any Garbage which is superimposed on the mains AC waveform, in technical terms we call this CONDUCTED EMI which includes noise, waveform distortion, Dc-offset and so on.

Only thing the cables do "IF They Are Twisted" is that they cancel the mutual field and thus facilitate in suppression of RADIATED EMI, i.e. radiated EMI field exposed to the surrounding environment.

To eliminate the garbage, what you need is a FILTER either Passive or Active.

I totally get it that if there were power "conditioners" employed - the power is "conditioned" and then it would make sense to use a fancy pants cable from the "conditioner" to the equipment but if not, what is the point???

Even if you employ Power Conditioners, then also there is no point in using the fancy exotic cables from conditioner to the equipment. Cables do nothing to eliminate conducted EMI. A simple twisted cable is enough to suppress the radiated EMI.



?????R

 

[keith_correa]

Keith

Cables cannot Eliminate any Garbage which is superimposed on the mains AC waveform, in technical terms we call this CONDUCTED EMI which includes noise, waveform distortion, Dc-offset and so on.

Only thing the cables do "IF They Are Twisted" is that they cancel the mutual field and thus facilitate in suppression of RADIATED EMI, i.e. radiated EMI field exposed to the surrounding environment.

To eliminate the garbage, what you need is a FILTER either Passive or Active.

Even if you employ Power Conditioners, then also there is no point in using the fancy exotic cables from conditioner to the equipment. Cables do nothing to eliminate conducted EMI. A simple twisted cable is enough to suppress the radiated EMI.

?????R

Now you're talking bro

Absolutely!!! Some of this was understood all along and was the premise for my original question. So let me attempt all over again because my original question is somewhat diluted in 9 pages of "fluff". OK, OK, relevant fluff. Ducking...

So, presuming that:

1. There is a specialist [again for want of a better word] power cable [twisted, braided, inexpensive or not - not relevant] supplying power to the audio equipment.
2. The specialist power cable does what it claims to do

__________________________________________________________

Scenario 1:
Power station-->miles of cable, terminations et. al.-->Home-->Switch-->Specialist cable-->Audio equipment

Scenario 2:
Power station-->miles of cable, terminations et. al.-->Home-->Switch-->Power conditioner/filter-->Specialist cable-->Audio equipment

Question: In Scenario 1 - if upto the point of the switch, there is conducted EMI already in, and if the specialist cable cannot do anything to eliminate this conducted EMI - what is the function of the specialist cable?

Answer: Function would be to prevent radiated EMI from getting in, in the last mile, from the point of the switch till the equipment. The equipment would still receive conducted EMI.

Scenario 2 - would make sense because in this case the point in using the specialist cable would be to try to eliminate the radiated EMI from getting into "clean" power.

 

[InderbirSingh]

Hi all,

Its funny to see that a "Link" which contains incorrect statements from a manufacturer of certain cable is "Relevant" and whereas if someone exposes and refutes such lies is termed as "Irrelevant".

There are people who have huge ego and difficulty in accepting scientific facts, no matter what amount of scientific evidence you provide they will never accept the fact that they have been fooled by charlatans in buying exotic cables for large sums of money. :clapping:


Should we conclude that this thread is nothing but ego nurturing for those who don't want to see the other side of the coin and are better confined in a realm of paradoxical fantasy of exoticism .:indifferent14:

 

[keith_correa]

A simple twisted cable is enough to suppress the radiated EMI.

What is your opinion on using screened [braid, foil, both together] cables for power use?

 

[kanwar]

Now you're talking bro

Scenario 2 - would make sense because in this case the point in using the specialist cable would be to try to eliminate the radiated EMI from getting into "clean" power.

But this could be done with virtually any cable[nothing exotic], Just TWIST it

 

[keith_correa]

Hi all,

Its funny to see that a "Link" which contains incorrect statements from a manufacturer of certain cable is "Relevant" and whereas if someone exposes and refutes such lies is termed as "Irrelevant".

I did not call the contents of the link relevant although from my layman point of view it very well may have been. I simply would not know better. I called the post that had a link that "answered" my question relevant instead of meandering in tangents.

There are people who have huge ego and difficulty in accepting scientific facts, no matter what amount of scientific evidence you provide they will never accept the fact that they have been fooled by charlatans in buying exotic cables for large sums of money. :clapping:

Are you referring to me? Have never bought an "exotic" cable in my life. Hell, the cheapskate that I am, I find it difficult to pay a few 100's of rupees for a stock cable

Should we conclude that this thread is nothing but ego nurturing for those who don't want to see the other side of the coin and are better confined in a realm of paradoxical fantasy of exoticism .:indifferent14:

Yes, please feel free to do so

 

[keith_correa]

But this could be done with virtually any cable[nothing exotic], Just TWIST it

Will come to it later. Just you wait

 

[kanwar]

What is your opinion on using screened [braid, foil, both together] cables for power use?

Braided cables are used when one has to protect the sensitive conductors under the envelope of the Braid from the EXTERNAL RFI/EMI.

But when you wrap a power cord [Twisted or not]with a Braid[provided Braid is connected to Earth terminal of your house hold wall socket] it gives little benefit to cut RFI. But then what is the essence when the RFI itself is of no problem for the transformer which acts as a brickwall filter to reject it altogether.

 

[shanmune]

For me, I am learning something from this thread and that's the positive side I see. There could be some posts which may be irrelevant, but I think most of our FMs are matured enough to filter that.

Thanks to Nikhil first for posting the link which at least had some relevance to this thread. Debating on the contents is a different thing. Next I need to thank Kanwar for sharing his thoughts and I am trying to understand his points and hope I will come with some questions for him.
And then I see a post from gvenu and he talks about what he has experienced. Now my curiosity to know the facts has gone up. Some times I used to wonder if there is anything absolute even in the field of science. We see debates even among the scientists with whatever scientific data they have collected.

At least based on what I have understood till now (who knows - my understanding may change as well in time), the exotic cables cannot do anything if the input power itself is having some garbage. Kanwar has pointed out that the only thing the cables ( a normal twisted cables) can do is the suppression of the radiated EMI. I go by what kanwar has said, but my question is - Whether that suppression of the radiated EMI will have any impact on the sound quality (whether tube based or SS) in real world ?

 

[InderbirSingh]

Are you referring to me? Have never bought an "exotic" cable in my life.

No, that wasn't for you

 

[echo77]

Do ferrite beads help in power cables? Or are they only good for data cables?

 

[kanwar]

Kanwar has pointed out that the only thing the cables ( a normal twisted cables) can do is the suppression of the radiated EMI. I go by what kanwar has said, but my question is - Whether that suppression of the radiated EMI will have any impact on the sound quality (whether tube based or SS) in real world ?

Lets take a particular case.

The AC mains[corrupted with huge amounts of RFI ] enters an integrated amplifier. The first block of rejection it will see is from transformer[assuming no common mode filter is there in that amp]. The primary winding will reject it and secondary will not transform it to other side . Now there is a catch, what if the winding of the transformer is not good, a badly wound transformer, no Faraday shielding, too much inter-layer capacitance..........then you have RFI at secondary which goes to your sensitive preamp circuits also and it will contaminate the resultant response of the system to a certain extent. Yes it is possible IF and ONLY IF the Powersupply is BADLY Designed . Here the exotic cables can play a role to fool the customers "Hey Look, the sound is clean now, the poor customer will believe "experience" it and will be convinced " Without hinting towards the fact the equipment has badly designed power supply itself.

Also if the bad interconnects are placed near to untwisted ac mains wire, they will pickup the garbage by default.

Do ferrite beads help in power cables? Or are they only good for data cables?

Yes ferrite beads helps. They absorb RFI/EMI. Mostly they have more effect when used in conjunction with SMPS.

 

[keith_correa]

Am culling parts from Caelin's post that are his opinion and which I think are relevant.

Electrons cannot be contaminated. There are two aspects to power transmission: the electromagnetic wave and the current flow. The current itself cannot be contaminated but the electromagnetic wave can be modulated with other frequencies. We usually call these other frequencies noise or Electromagnetic Interference (EMI). Within the various parts of a power circuit there may be EMI in certain parts that is not present in others. Electromagnetic energy can be transformed or redirected to lessen their effects.

Some power cords use capacitors, inductors, or ferrites in an attempt to control the electromagnetic fields around the audio component. The success of such an approach is completely dependent upon the specific design and the reactance of the power supply of the component to which the power cable is attached.

OK, so does that mean that a one size fits all power conditioner is not possible? If so then we have a problem, no?
So what areas of the design of the component PS should be taken into account for such a power filter? What is Reactance???

Further, very high frequencies that propagate through the power circuit do not survive for long. Power lines present a high impedance to MHz and GHz signals due to the relatively high inductance of power lines.

Is this referring to conducted EMI? if yes, does this mean that over large distances conducted EMI is not an issue?

Most power supply filters are ineffective at blocking very high frequency noise components and much of it is passed through to the DC rails. The sonic effects of this include: high background noise levels, blurred or slurred transients and a general lack of clarity and purity of the sound or visual image.

wire type and size in a power cord is highly overrated. Every wire type (I am talking about the metal itself) has a specific sonic characteristic. Silver, copper, brass, gold and others all "sound" different. The difference in sound is not related to conductivity capacity because we adjusted the sizes during testing to account for this. Each of the metal's inherent "sonics" can be ameliorated by careful adjustment of the other materials used in the construction of the final cable. We have a warehouse full of various prototype cables that never made it to production. Some of these use a relatively small wire size of ~18ga, that sounds surprising full in the bass. Intuitively, you might think that a small wire would sound thin in the bass region. This is not always the case. Conversely, we have some cables with wire as large as 1gauge that sound powerful in the bass but are also flabby and irregular sounding. So, just increasing the wire size is not the easy answer that some might think.

Our tests with coils and chokes indicate that (in general, with exceptions) that any coil or choke that is placed in-line with the power circuit is harmful to dynamics. Many of them will also induce a subtle smearing or blurring of transients. This is naturally dependent upon the power supply design of the unit that the coil is used with.

Shielding can be a two-edged sword. On one hand, it can reduce radiated fields from impacting other components. On the other hand, the shielding may induce re-radiated fields onto the cable or component that it is being used in. Sometimes the cure may be worse than the illness. As always - you must know your materials and tools and apply intelligence with a small dose of intuition to create a world class product. There is no silver bullet and there is no rote formula that works in all cases. There is just hard work, occasional inspiration and lots of testing.

Most of what I have to say here are my "conclusions" based upon observation through trial and error testing.

 

[keith_correa]

Isn't it possible to design a "filter" that would be applied post the PS stage? That way, the garbage in the line, garbage leaking past the transformer etc will be eliminated at the last stage possible, no?

 

[keith_correa]

Agreed,
BTW this is the list of Studios/professionals using Shunyata cables (including the iconic Lucas Films Skywalker sound studios):
Shunyata Research: Professional Endorsements
I have and use Shunyata power cords and at-least to my ears they sound superior, though I use mostly entry level cords.
Cheers,
Sid

I thought you agreed with "arj" when he said that they "make no difference". Was that said tongue in cheek? If yes, what was the need to be that way?

 

[jls001]

Assuming we have less than ideal power supply,

1) what effect does the conducted EMI/RFI have on the quality of audio? I mean do they end up distorting the desired audio waveform? Or are they instrumental in raising the noise floor? Or what?

2) what effect does an RF or EM field, assuming they are in the vicinity of our power carrying cable, have on audio quality when they enter the power supply via induction? I mean do they end up distorting the desired audio waveform? Or are they instrumental in raising the noise floor? Or what?

3) Are spurious inducted EMI/EFIs in the audio band, or beyond? If they are beyond the audio band, do they end up affecting the signal within the audio band by intermodulation?

4) What effect does distorted waveform (both shape and phase) of the power supply have on audio quality?

5) as soon as the power supply emerges from the secondary windings of the power supply, they are rectified. Brutally, as someone puts it. So from being a curvaceous sinusoidal AC supply it becomes a boring straight line DC. Does the presense of EMI, RFI, or it being a distorted/corrupted sinusoidal waveform with less-than-perfect phase relation to a sinusoid affect the quality of the DC output of the rectifier? And isn't the filter sufficient to take care of such vagaries?

6) Does the rectifier generate its own noise in the process of switching back and forth between two electrical possible paths for every half cycle?