Sansui SR 222 Speed issue

[greenhorn]

This is a very nice TT. No bells and whistles, but well made.

has a 4 pole ac synchronous motor, and speed switching via a fork that changes the pulley position of the belt.

problem is that the speed seems to be a bit slow and unstable, but I can't figure out why. This is a very old TT bought out of storage, but the belt is not cracked, the bearings have very little friction, and my understanding is that ac sync motors dont experience speed instability or drift.


So what could be the problem

 

[sachu888]

It must be a belt.

Regards
Sachin

 

[Selvin]

and my understanding is that ac sync motors dont experience speed instability or drift.

You are correct. AC sync motors doesn't experience speed instability. But it will suffer with supply frequency variation. Please check the supply line frequency once is there any variation. Also check the stability of voltage at motor terminal.

 

[greenhorn]

update. instability is fixed with a new belt, but it's still a bit slow. (at around 3% - experimented with my sl1210 until i got the speeds in sync at around 3%). the sl1210 speed is accurate (compared with my mp3's)

what could now be the problem? the only reason I can think of is lubrication?

 

[greenhorn]

update. Figured it might be a problem with the pulley. After a bit of thought, thought I'd adjust the selector fork height

used a piece of paper... now the speed is fine, but the TT is very noisy - I can hear the belt rubbing.

not sure if I have fixed it or just cured the symptoms of something else

 

[reubensm]

sorry greenhorn but this is why I just can't stand belt drives

Imagine the belt being lifted by those guides

good going on the repair job!!

 

[sachu888]

Your belt is not correct size.

Regards
Sachin

 

[greenhorn]

Imagine the belt being lifted by those guides

good going on the repair job!!

I really don't think I've fixed the right thing - the guide is lifting the belt even more with my 'fix' - that's why I'm not so sure.

Your belt is not correct size.
Regards
Sachin

Sachin, I swear you are psychic.
The service manual says sansui part no 6032170
Google throws up both 23.6" and 25" belts for that part.

I ordered
Turntable belt fits Sansui SR 2050C, SR 212, SR 222, SR 232, SR 313, X4X | eBay

which now after checking, turns out to be a 25" FBM, while the one that was on the TT was 23.6"
Mine is the Sansui SR 222 Mk 1 (there are 222's upto Mk V)
Very confused

 

[Record Player]

sorry greenhorn but this is why I just can't stand belt drives

Imagine the belt being lifted by those guides

good going on the repair job!!

I cannot agree more with Reuben's comments. I have honestly followed his footsteps of direct drives and I must tell you that I am convinced.

Direct Drives all the way yeah...

 

[greenhorn]

further updates. the only thing in the TT that could have aged other than the belt is the suspension.

Since the alignment was also off, I tried raising the motor instead, by putting something in between the mount and the motor suspending screws.

Speed is 99% there and the noise is also gone.

this is a jugaad fix using a piece of wire they use to tie bread packets - wondering what I can do as a permanent cure

 

[greenhorn]

It's almost midnight, but i finally cracked it

Seems this is not the first time, folks at Vinylengine and audiokarma seem to have faced it as well, not many seem to have solved it.


There is a screw at the base of the pulley. Loosened it, lifted the pulley up a bit, and after a few trial and error attempts, found a position where the belt ran without scraping for both speeds, and the speed was correct.

Now I can start with the cosmetic bits!

 

[sachu888]

I cannot agree more with Reuben's comments. I have honestly followed his footsteps of direct drives and I must tell you that I am convinced.

Direct Drives all the way yeah...

Hi,
Belt drive TTs are actually easier to maintain.Very simple machines.You only need to take care of belt.
SQ is subjective,and personal preference.There are some very nice BD TTs like Linn,Thorens,AR etc.
I am currently using Micro Seiki BD TT.I liked it very much for listening old bollywood songs,but it lacks Lanco's slam.

Regards
Sachin

 

[greenhorn]

Hi,
Belt drive TTs are actually easier to maintain.Very simple machines.You only need to take care of belt.
Regards
Sachin

I agree. With belts, oil, and a screw driver, and a bit of patience a belt drive should probably survive a few centuries. I wouldn't be so sure about the technics - it will work flawlessly when it does, but I am not looking forward to troubleshooting its electronics.


The Technics SL1210 does have a certain something - I'm trying to figure out what exactly, right now am guessing something along the lines of PRAT. Sounds great for good recordings, but makes older, badder recordings virtually unlistenable (like Jim Reeves earlier country songs)

 

[Record Player]

I agree. With belts, oil, and a screw driver, and a bit of patience a belt drive should probably survive a few centuries. I wouldn't be so sure about the technics - it will work flawlessly when it does, but I am not looking forward to troubleshooting its electronics.


The Technics SL1210 does have a certain something - I'm trying to figure out what exactly, right now am guessing something along the lines of PRAT. Sounds great for good recordings, but makes older, badder recordings virtually unlistenable (like Jim Reeves earlier country songs)

You would be surprised to see how easy it is to troubleshoot a Technics. With virtually every spare available its extremely easy. Now a technics 1200/10 popping up with problems is extremely rare. It's a complete workshorse and just lubing the spindle is all that required once in a way. These players can and will last a very very long time compared to most players.

I am surprised that you are not enjoying older records on your 1210 considering you have a M44-7 on it! Hope you have got all the required alignments in place and accurately. But if the record is really old and significant abuse, no player can make that sound good.

I very strongly advocate the 1200s as I have been using these players for quite sometime and Everytime they procude magic for me. This is considering that I have auditioned so many mid and high level players across mediums. Most importantly this is how I perceived a perfect player to be i.e. a no nonsense player which chariming looks and which can make any rhythm music pop out of it's speakers.

Cheers...

 

[sachu888]

Hi RP
I agree, Technics 1200 series are workhorse and built like a tank.
There are dome other very good DD tts like JVC ,Sony etc.They are very gpod but prone to speed variation after certain age, especially JVC. That can be rectified in most of the cases by changing all electrolyte caps.

Regards
Sachin

 

[reubensm]

Sounds great for good recordings, but makes older, badder recordings virtually unlistenable (like Jim Reeves earlier country songs)

I would run a check on toneearm calibration, especially the anti-skate. Also run a check on the tonearm height. Assume that your stylus is in good shape. When stylus wear happens, the drop in performance is usually first noticed on older records. (You have not mentioned whether the older records sounded good before and there's a sudden noticeable fall in sound quality, so assume all your older records are clean and in good shape overall)

As RP mentioned, Technics turntables are very accurate. The Technics tonearm is often made fun of and considered low end, but the fact is that is is probably one of the best tonearms around.

 

[reubensm]

Hi RP
I agree, Technics 1200 series are workhorse and built like a tank.
There are dome other very good DD tts like JVC ,Sony etc.They are very gpod but prone to speed variation after certain age, especially JVC. That can be rectified in most of the cases by changing all electrolyte caps.

Regards
Sachin

Well said!! In my opinion, JVC direct drives are a huge pain to fix, when they hit speed problems. Of all direct drives, JVC usually leads the list for these speed problems.

 

[reubensm]

Hi,
Belt drive TTs are actually easier to maintain.Very simple machines.You only need to take care of belt.
SQ is subjective,and personal preference.There are some very nice BD TTs like Linn,Thorens,AR etc.
I am currently using Micro Seiki BD TT.I liked it very much for listening old bollywood songs,but it lacks Lanco's slam.

Regards
Sachin

I have used only the low end belt drives and they came with loads of problems. The most common was belt slippage (on the pulley) resulting in speed in-accuracies. However these issues would not be relevant for good belt drives like the Thorens turntables. Indian weather conditions tend to be harsh on anything made of rubber hence the table has to be in constant use. I've always found Technics Direct Drives the easiest to maintain and the most reliable. They are the closest one can get to plug and play, with turntables (keeping in mind how easy it is to calibrate the tone arm as well)

 

[reignofchaos]

Reuben you should try out a good quality belt drive - you'll have none of those issues with them. At least my Clearaudio has extremely good speed stability.

 

[jls001]

I have heard some real great sounding belt drives. They are in no way inferior to other drives. Just different in presentation.