Where do you stand on accuracy vs euphonics wrt amplification

[Enkay78]

For me I would want a clean and transparent amplification. Period.

Audio gears are suppose to reproduced what was recorded, and how the recordists intended to sound has to reproduced truthfully without any colouration in the system chain.

The dilemma would be then whether one like what the recordists wanted to sound . So simplify by searching/collecting sources one like. (The higher quality the better both in terma of format and recording engineering).

 

[arj]

Hi,

I guess I have come to a point, where i think i want to make an end game amplification purchase, for some time to come.

But i have not had the opportunity to compare different types of amplifiers and i really do not know where i stand taste wise, wrt amplifier sound.

I have read about tests where its usually reported that subjects almost always seem to prefer distortion free sound. Atleast wrt speakers.

Do amps with low THD or SNR always sound better to your ears ? Have you had an opportunity to compare amps level matched?

Have you been able to percieve differences when they are not clipping ? Have you always preferred a better measuring amp to a more warm/distorting amp? Where do most people stand on this?

I implore those with the experience and opportunity to have compared different types of amps, to please reply where they stand on this question.

Thanks in advance.
Arun

Instead of getting into technicalities which are very person dependent use a very simle test. Listen to dialogues or music from people/Artists you are very familiar with. Eg Jagjit singh/Amitabh etc and see how natural and comfortable their voice is. if that sounds appealing and real, thats good for you.

The concept of "Neutral" is not easy and take a lot of time to discover. eg if you lookup Fletcher munson loudness curves , you will realize that each of us hears the same sound slightly differently hence what works for on person will not work for another

THD and SNR are also not comprehensive measurements. what makes a tonal quality is something calld the Timbre which is the combination of all Upper and lower order harmonics of a sound and is very unique and which is what make the sound pleasing and natural. Hence you have have a Low THD etc and get a sterile sound as well as High THD and have a more natural and pleasing sound.

All the above is more by experience and there can be lot of valid expert opinions, but if you are going for a end game purchase, better go for one you can hear for hours and flle relaxed than anything with great specs.

 

[Hiten]

Trying to come to a consensus of broad varying biases and likings is little difficult. When considering how a source - amplifier - speakers come together to give a good sound; technically a basic well measured amplifier depending on which speaker they are driving and at what level somewhat builds a foundation on which one can build a hifi system to ones liking and removes unnecessary confusion. Spending large some of money on well measured or euphonic or 2nd harmonics full hifi and expecting that every recording in ones music collection will sound good is somewhat unachievable goal. (sometimes I use tone controls for some recording)
Example : I took a test of how much amplifier power I need. The results came as - at low levels 4 watts and at loud levels with bass increased 50 watts. So I will go for 50watts of clean power. If I am a believer of euphonic sound I will go for euphonic amplifier that gives 50 watts. If not I have nothing to loose.

Personally I think Speakers are most important things.
Regards

 

[Enkay78]

Personally I think Speakers are most important things.
Regards

Or the headphones.

I chance upon this FUNDAMENTAL aspect after having used my Hifiman Sundara.

I sort of did a blind test (not exactly an ABX test) using a same 24bit 192khz FLAC song (Pink Floyd) .....played using:

1. First from my Oneplus7pro
2. Surface pro
3. Denon
4. Sony BDP x700
5. Android TV
6. Topping NX4 DSD
7. Sabaj D5 DAC

And listened through same headphone (Hifiman Sundara) volume level matched (sort of not exactly). I could hardly hear major difference....which at all were very minimal (it's my personal subjective assessment)....and subtle differences of separation and soundstage.

Same is the case when I used my

Sony 1000xm3
Tin 3 iem
CCA C10 and C16 iem.

I had however found MARKED difference when I used different headphones /iem keeping the same source/player.

I had also found marked difference when I play songs through directsound and WASAPI outputs.

But as music is such a personal matter, I guess subjectively we will percieve differently to sound....hence the question of taste. I guess one should listen and choose what one is happy in listening.

* As I get the opportunity I will check a similar test with different speakers. Currently I don't have much choice for audition*

 

[bornfi]

Hi,

I guess I have come to a point, where i think i want to make an end game amplification purchase, for some time to come.

But i have not had the opportunity to compare different types of amplifiers and i really do not know where i stand taste wise, wrt amplifier sound.

I have read about tests where its usually reported that subjects almost always seem to prefer distortion free sound. Atleast wrt speakers.

Do amps with low THD or SNR always sound better to your ears ? Have you had an opportunity to compare amps level matched?

Have you been able to percieve differences when they are not clipping ? Have you always preferred a better measuring amp to a more warm/distorting amp? Where do most people stand on this?

I implore those with the experience and opportunity to have compared different types of amps, to please reply where they stand on this question.

Thanks in advance.
Arun

I think once you are with renowned brand, numbers (THD, S/N ratio) do not matter much. And here is where you start listening to how designer wanted you too. Do lot of reading on net to understand how reviewers analyze the sound and what their references are.

Once yu have built your creamy layer of amplifiers, choose one of them and adjust you expectations accordingly. Yes, you will never find a perfect one because even if you have one, when you change a cable/power supply equation changes again.

 

[Hiten]

Yes Enkay78, headphones removes the rooms reflections which is advantageous.
regards

 

[square_wave]

Can provide some more information to help people pitch in?

1. Budget
2. What speakers will you be using with the new amplifier ?
3. Have you heard any system that enthralled you ? And, what were those qualities that stood out as compared to your current system ?

Accuracy and Euphonics in amplifiers and their measurement is a horse that has been beaten to death for decades. If you put a dozen audiophiles or amplifier designers in a room and explore a consensus, it will surely be a hot debate with no clear winners in the end. Nowadays, most people who have played this game for a while define an end goal w.r.t the “kind of sound “ they want from their “ music system “. This can be different for different people. That, I think should be your first step. The next step is to buy a loudspeaker. The loudspeaker sounds the “ most different “ among all audio components. Then you buy an amplifier that works well with that speaker.

System synergy and individual tastes are very important in this game. Typical measurements of audio components will only tell you half the story.

 

[raghupb]

@spaace
Measurements and sound quality debates have been around ever since SS technology came into being.
Tubes and many SS amps don't measure all that great, but sound good.
Many SS amps measure great, but don't sound quite right.
So it is like a wormhole. One can get lost very easily.

As @square_wave @Hiten @arj @bornfi suggest listen to as many setups and decide what kind of sound appeals to you.
These guys are old horses in this game.

Set your expectation to a reasonable one, most importantly these should be what you are searching for.
External inputs and impressions are good, but they are a only a platform for you to build upon.

And yeah, nail them speakers right first.

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[jls001]

Almost any amplifier in current production will have distortion numbers equal to or better than 0.1% THD. Some are even an order of magnitude (0.0x%) better. And SNRs are generally of the order of 100 dB or better for line level gears (phono preamps are much lower as the signal itself is very low). Many argue that THD or SNR doesn't tell us anything about how an amp will sound. Some swear by TIM distortion numbers.

The only way to arrive at what sound signature one prefers is by hearing lots of setups.

 

[Hiten]

As [USER=154]@square_wave @Hiten @arj @bornfi suggest listen to as many setups and decide what kind of sound appeals to you.
These guys are old horses in this game.

Thanks Raghu. Though I have heard few high end gears and DIYed few minor electronic things. the name of the gents you have mentioned are highly experienced then me and have spent money on gear to backup their thoughts. So I will take two steps backwards from the line.
Warm regards.

 

[Soundstage]

In this game, there is no endgame

 

[arj]

In this game, there is no endgame

Or you can say Endgame is reached when you think it is reached

 

[spaace]

The only way to arrive at what sound signature one prefers is by hearing lots of setups.

Thanks - I wouldn't like anything better. BUT How do i go about it? This seems to be the common recommendation
I did go around Bangalore hi-fi shops when i was making my initial speaker purchase but i have lots more ground to cover.

However i feel bad about troubling these shops, doing this, since in the end i do not know who or what i will be purchasing . The hifi shops also seems to have acquired a revulsion to "2 channel" guys since they are more demanding in terms of audio quality and want to do more level comparisons switching etc, compared to someone who just want more speakers/more power etc.

Is dealer auditioning the only way to hear to setups?

Can provide some more information to help people pitch in?

1. Budget
2. What speakers will you be using with the new amplifier ?
3. Have you heard any system that enthralled you ? And, what were those qualities that stood out as compared to your current system ?

......Nowadays, most people who have played this game for a while define an end goal w.r.t the “kind of sound “ they want from their “ music system “. This can be different for different people. That, I think should be your first step. The next step - > loudspeaker -> buy an amplifier that works well with that speaker.

The reason I was looking to buy an amp + DAC 1st is that - that's the bit i saved on when i first made my purchase - and the old Yamaha i had bought seems to have given up the ghost. So i need a replacement urgently. The speakers i have currently is a set of KEF R500.

When i was running around trying to buy my 1st set of speakers i was asked to buy an amp 1st and then get speakers that matched to it. So i used to carry this 25 kg Yamaha everywhere to audition and soon i stopped it. The main difference i was seeing was that either slam was lesser in the dealer ones than the old yammie or the newer amps were clipping/distoring at higher levels. So to save effort i stopped carrying it everywhere. At that time i decided that amp difference was not so much that i could differentiate / bother about it. To boot, none of the dealers had a way to even switch between different amps in a level controlled manner.

So based on this experience i just sat down and dug through all the forums and started gathering data on amps based on measurements alone since i couldnt hear them anyway. After all my readings i settled on 2 amps based on

• published measurements
• based on which famous reviewers who themselves have upgraded to one of these.
• Many of the big brands also seems to have moved to hypex modules in their flagship amps (eg Marantz).

Problem though is that i haven't listened to either of these before hand.

1. Hypex kit - nc400
2. Benchmark abh2

So based on my experience i should go for 1 and save some money. But this chart in particular has been giving me a headache... No other amps seems to produce a square wave this bad. Even regular class A/AB seems to do a better job here. Yet there are so many singing praises of hypex.

Hypex stereophile measurements




But based on THD etc the hypex is still much better than many of the amps out there. But abh2 seems to blow everything out of the water wrt THD distortion etc - 2x better - but at 4 times the cost, considering its 2x as expensive and offers only half the power. It does seem quite an outlay for something i havent heard yet and for removing the distortion i might not have been able to hear anyway in the 1st place.


Since i had not heard either i was really concerned on whether i need to spend so much more for a less distorting product. Admittedly i dont have a choice in that list of mine which represents a type of sound i like.

I was also troubled by the fact that my entire list is based on measurements (& some past experience while auditioning) since i really haven't had an opportunity to hear many setups. I have not had a chance to hear a "warm" / tube sound either. So i was holding out before i swiped the card

Hence the question which i wrung out of my soul and posted here for your kind consideration.

Thanks
Arun

ps : Type of music i listen to most - Soft rock (Tracy chapman, eagles) reggae and country music and soft hindi/tamil/malayalam compositions. I do enjoy my occasional fast pop and punjabi but never as many times as the slow/softer ones.

ps : The end game reference was coz i fear i might not get another budget allocation to spend any more for this. (Age/retirement etc )

 

[Enkay78]

@spaace

Same feelings here.

Nowadays I am more inclined to owning very good Class D amps of Hypex Ncore stuff. Budget friendly, transparent, power friendly.


So mulling over March Audio/Apollon/Purifi/Nord etc...or the DIY kit

I have read some few from ASR, Archimago, Audiogon, etc.

My perspective is this:

IF I have clean and transparent amplification (DAC + Poweramp) vis a vis measurements, I can choose my source (software/hardware) .....and add if needed DSP/EQ/Filters to add colouration to my LIKING.

Disclaimer: I have no experience of high end audiophile gears....no boutique amps/tubes/turntables. However I did in my limited journey, tend to listen critically. And have come across some concrete observations that have some 'clinical' significance to me. (I still say this is my subjective opinion). Veterans may disagree with me in toto


Edit:

Don't forget to have a look at ASR https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...and-measurements-of-hypex-nc400-diy-amp.5907/

Or do a search for Hypex.

Anyday I would trust ASR over Stereophile (that's my conviction till now...after extensive reading of may forums)

 

[sidvee]

Benchmark abh2

Do consider nuprime st-10.

ST-10 - NuPrime Audio

Reference class power amplifier The ST-10 amplifier is for listeners who require a reference-class amplifier at a somewhat lesser power rating of 2 x 150W (8 Ohm). NuPrime’s sonic character stands well apart from – and indeed above – the soft, cushy sound we often associate with most tubed...

nuprimeaudio.com

I have heard the benchmark, and though it is very good I preferred the nuprime as a better vfm option. Pair it with a tube pre and it will do both the lushness of tubes with the slam of solid state. I owned 1 for about a year and thoroughly enjoyed it.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[square_wave]

There is a big reason why we need to look at the entire system. It is about figuring out what is the elephant or rather elephants in the room. In most cases, the elephants are the "room", " speaker characteristics ", " loudspeaker setup related issues ". In comparison to these, differences in amplifiers especially solid state ones can be compared to a " mouse ". A very small mouse! If the elephant is blocking your view, how can you see the mouse ?

If the above 3 issues are sorted, then the mice ( amp, cables ) raises its head and becomes the elephant in the system for that particular listener who had the experience of going through that journey with that system. That is how it works.

The result you get with an amp / speaker combo may or may not satisfy you irrespective of what the published measurements say. I know someone who tried that benchmark amplifier in his system and did not like the combination with his speakers. Initially he reported " fantastic frequency balance", " tight bass and extension " etc. But over the period of the next week, he started missing so many other things. He went with a tube amp in the end. Not that the amp is bad. It is an excellent amp but did not work with that speaker for that particular listener. If the kef is your final speaker for a while, you really need to talk to Kef users.

 

[jls001]

Thanks - I wouldn't like anything better. BUT How do i go about it? This seems to be the common recommendation

PM Bangalore members whose setups you'd like to listen to. You'll find many helpful members who will be more than willing to let you audition their sounds (of course at their convenience).

Bonus feature: you'll end up making new friends.

If you hear a number of good systems, you'll hear that they have different sonic signatures. You may like some, while not so much others. Nevertheless all are valid approaches to sound. After a point, we need to choose our flag, our steeple, our sound. And the setups you've heard will help you discern and distil the sound you like. As a corollary to the exercise, you'll find that performance need not be commensurate with the money sunk in. etc, and IMO.

 

[Hiten]

But this chart in particular has been giving me a headache... No other amps seems to produce a square wave this bad. Even regular class A/AB seems to do a better job here. Yet there are so many singing praises of hypex.

Hypex stereophile measurements

View attachment 39825

Here are Squarewave measurements charts of NC400 from audiosciencereview and they seem good.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ents-of-hypex-nc400-diy-amp.5907/#post-132084
Audition multiple amplifiers is little difficult in India. However Dont rely too much on measurements and dont expect the sound you hear in showroom to be same in your home. One has to accept that nothing is perfect in this world and we have to compromise.

Regards

 

[jls001]

The ncore sound is not for everyone. Some find it sterile and anodyne and lacking in rich harmonic information. The Benchmark I believe is designed to be totally flat and colourless as it is designed to be a studio amp. It may measure very good but to understand how it sounds do read up user/owner feedbacks.

 

[square_wave]

Focal and Naim. An example of a typical popular combination that I don't like. Some of my friends concur while others love it.This is a standard combination that you will see at dealers in Singapore and elsewhere. They actually work together as brands for promotion. I love them with other combinations though.