Where do you stand on accuracy vs euphonics wrt amplification

[raghupb]

@spaace
I recall during our interaction on another thread

Parasound New Classic Range: Any owners here?

Prelude: So after a 13 year journey to build up my current rig, the thought of "different sound" has crept in. It is not a case of full blown "upgrade-itis" yet, but it may very well turn out to be. The trigger for this were chats with a couple of FMs who are looking for power amps. In the...

www.hifivision.com

There are 3 power class AB amps at home currently.
- Parasound NC 275v2
- ASKA55
- Outlaw Audio M2200 monoblocks
Also there are 2 preamps
- Parasound NC 200Pre
- Lyrita DHT (Tube)

Most relevant, I have the R300 (smaller sibling of R500).
Let me know if you want to come home and give them a listen.

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[Soundstage]

Thanks - I wouldn't like anything better. BUT How do i go about it? This seems to be the common recommendation


ps : The end game reference was coz i fear i might not get another budget allocation to spend any more for this. (Age/retirement etc )

Sorry if i came across as being flippant when I commented about the endgame, but, for better or worse, this is an inescapable fact of this hobby. Once you are drawn in, it becomes a lifelong journey of learning, and aspiring to higher performance products, tantalisingly close, but just out of reach. Very fortunate are the few who feel they have reached the end of the journey.

As recommended above, best way would be to request forum members to allow you to listen to their systems. By and large, Audiophiles are very accommodating and generally have no objection to having a fellow hobbyist over, even if he happens to be a complete stranger.

One can also get in touch with people who have advertised any items for sale.....that's another avenue and you may find something you like.

I wouldn'the do much hairsplitting as regards measurements, I'd do plenty of reading, find which are the companies making solidly engineered products, try to hear and choose amongst them.

Unfortunately, there's no simple quick fix solution , one only learns over a period of time.

Good luck in your search!

 

[spaace]

Here are Squarewave measurements charts of NC400 from audiosciencereview and they seem good.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ents-of-hypex-nc400-diy-amp.5907/#post-132084
Audition multiple amplifiers is little difficult in India. However Dont rely too much on measurements and dont expect the sound you hear in showroom to be same in your home. One has to accept that nothing is perfect in this world and we have to compromise.

Regards

I noticed the resolution is different. 200u in ASR vs 20u in stereophile posted one. Ofcourse i wouldnt know head or tail of this even if a "graph"came a sat on top of my head. I posted a reply in there. Iam still reading a learning about it.

 

[spaace]

Let me know if you want to come home and give them a listen.

Thank you, Again ... I surely would love to hear the amps. Its too bad i cant get a hypex to come along, to compare .
Will PM you.

This sort of begs the question - does this group plan meets with the equipments brought over? I would for sure love to compare KEF/Focal/GoldenEar/Vandersteen/Harbeths/Revels together "level matched".

 

[spaace]

Btw, do we know if anyone in here who might have hypex / abh2 based amps? It sure would help me out.

 

[Kannan]

In my experience, the choice of amplifier is quite a tough one to make. Since past 3 years, I have stuck to the same pair of speakers and have made changes to the rest of the chain slowly and steadily. Now I have almost completed my chain and it sounds at its best to my ears.

Surprisingly the final choice has been the 5 watt single ended AmpCamp which does not boast of any pristine technical specs, but sounds very balanced and musical.
I do have choice of 3 other technically far superior amps, but I still prefer the AmpCamp.

 

[square_wave]

In my experience, the choice of amplifier is quite a tough one to make. Since past 3 years, I have stuck to the same pair of speakers and have made changes to the rest of the chain slowly and steadily. Now I have almost completed my chain and it sounds at its best to my ears.

Surprisingly the final choice has been the 5 watt single ended AmpCamp which does not boast of any pristine technical specs, but sounds very balanced and musical.
I do have choice of 3 other technically far superior amps, but I still prefer the AmpCamp.

Your speakers works with all types of amps, no ?

The OP is keen to keep the KEF speakers and is looking for an amplifier that works with it. Isn't KEF a tough match for tubes ?

 

[raghupb]

R500 are similar to R300 in many ways; have had R300 for 3+ years now.
I can say that this series does need a bit of muscle behind them.
25-50W of clean power delivery. Anything above it will be beneficial for headroom.
Minimum impedance of 3.2 ohms can pose problems to some amps too.
Cheers,
Raghu

 

[Kannan]

Your speakers works with all types of amps, no ?

I have tried them at different stages on Class D, Class AB and Class A amps. Never had any real bad experience. I presently have two Adcom amps, a DIY Class D, a tube hybrid and the AmpCamp.

The OP is keen to keep the KEF speakers and is looking for an amplifier that works with it. Isn't KEF a tough match for tubes ?

I think the R500 should be happy with some power, but again with around 88db, the extra power needed would depend on the room size and listening distance.
I guess amps of Naim, NAD can be a good match for KEF depending on the type of sound the OP likes. Some reviews seem to position KEF as a bit forward sounding, though I have never heard them.

Regarding if extremely low THD values really matter is what I have no answer to. But THD does matter as long as it is within the scientific threshold.

 

[unleash_me]

Look up Simon Audio’s All-In-One (AIO)

 

[marsilians]

If you go down measurement route, it’s a rabbit hole.

Measurements don’t mean well sounding basically. Just because something measures great means, they had great engineers who achieved their goal. Eg., Pass and Bryston amps measure equally well as PS Audio or Mark Levinson or Parasound. Each sounds different and beats competition at or above price points.

My reco is to talk to dealers and get equipment to test in your home. If you are serious enough and convince them, they are willing to work with you. If not move to next one. Other option is enthusiasts in the city who can let you borrow.

In the end you will have to decide when to draw the line. I have seen people collapse from expensive separates to compact integrated or even powered systems with DACs or go opposite way with bridging mono amps. Follow your heart and wallet closely to reach the end game.

 

[spaace]

If you go down measurement route, it’s a rabbit hole.

Measurements don’t mean well sounding basically.

Well obviously ..speaker matching and room etc matters....but all else being the same , isnt it more likely for a better measuring amp to sound better compared to something that is vastly distorting ?

In that sense shouldn't we first find the top measuring ones and then start auditions and feature comparisons and find the one that agrees the most to our tastes ?

 

[arj]

Would have been a logical approach if we knew how to measure the music coming from a system. Unfortunately all measurements measure only a small part and miss the rest.
And even in those measurements there is no standards

Think abput equating music listening and measurement to wine tasting and measuring the wine.. or maybe eve tea tasting to get the idea .

 

[marsilians]

Well obviously ..speaker matching and room etc matters....but all else being the same , isnt it more likely for a better measuring amp to sound better compared to something that is vastly distorting ?

In that sense shouldn't we first find the top measuring ones and then start auditions and feature comparisons and find the one that agrees the most to our tastes ?

Not necessarily. If what you are saying is true, then there wouldnt be any difference between various manufacturer offerings if the measurements matched. We all know that is not true.

Also, distortion is also a subjective area as every amp distorts sounds to some extent, we tend to be concerned with only large scale ones as it impacts the tonality of what we listen to.

 

[spaace]

Not necessarily. If what you are saying is true, then there wouldnt be any difference between various manufacturer offerings if the measurements matched. We all know that is not true.

Oh ... i was under the impression that the reverse is well known

That level matched and non distorting, listeners couldn't distinguish between amps?

 

[raghupb]

Oh ... i was under the impression that the reverse is well known

That level matched and non distorting, listeners couldn't distinguish between amps?

I guess when you were hunting for speakers, it was the sound signature that enticed you.
Amp/preamp/source/content were secondary.
When you start auditioning again, this time for amps, don't let numbers bias you.
Listen and trust your ears.
Cheers,
Raghu

 

[spaace]

Ok ... I really am sure i dont have a golden ear ...will need some pointers here and there to know what iam missing. Thanks.

 

[marsilians]

Below is a bit controversial but Bob Carver (a genius in my books atleast!) showed measurements are secondary vs. tuning amps and went after the heavy hitters in his day. Most importantly, he showed a way to measure 2 amps while keeping everything else the same, i.e., hooking up the same speaker to two diff amps and having the listener validate if one sounded better than other or same in his case. There are many others but Bob showed one way remove the numbers bias.

The Carver Challenge

Is it possible to make a $700 "mainstream-audio" power amplifier sound exactly like a high-priced perfectionist amplifier? Bob Carver, of Carver Corporation, seemed to think he could, so we challenged him to prove it.

www.stereophile.com

 

[Enkay78]

Btw I had a high view of PS Audio ....but check the reviews of their DAC at ASR . https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ave-directstream-dac.9100/page-61#post-241735

It's about a $6000 gear.

So imo boutique gears are surely a high profit thingy for manufacturers who sells these with flowery sonnets.

The irony is this:

Each and every audio gears have evolve through the audio technology based on OBJECTIVE MEASUREMENTS .....heck ask the pro audio industry what are their buying decisions.....it's only in the audiophile sector that subjective is considered better ( I know that one has to be pleased with what one hears...but still the irony is there). Balanced outputs/XLR etc which are common in proaudio becomes exotic and expensive in consumer audio. Then we have all sorts of 10000k cables and what not........but do the music content producers and makers follow such myths and 'cult' thingy?

Hypex nc400 kit is not as pricey as the NAD amp with the same modules. Price becomes 3x-10x.

Marketing and sales pitch do spoils the hobby.


*I stand corrected if wrong*

 

[spaace]

Below is a bit controversial but Bob Carver (a genius in my books atleast!) showed measurements are secondary

You know Sir, its funny you should quote this experiment. I have always thought of this experiment as the proof that

1. There is no magic involved ...and amp manufacturers can choose to voice the amp one way or another. Therefore all that matters between amps is component quality and how well they measure.

2. The stereophile people did not chose an amp they thought measured well as his contender .. They chose an amp that had tons of subjective qualities which he was able to demonstrate was a net effect of the signals and it is under his control and therefore could voice it anyway he wanted


3. Of course he did not undertand why a particular signal caused subjective qualities which was observed. But now that he has shown its possible i dont see why any amp manufacturer cannot eq their amp any which way they wanted

Based on this i understood during my early years (and as newbie now too) that one shouldn't spend too much on fancy amps unless of course it gives better measured results.

And thus my position that measurement is everything .....


You know this exchange of ours goes to show you can't convince people of anything ....almost anything they see is taken as proof that their own bias is correct. Of course iam talking about me and not you.



How did you read the experiment ? Why is it a demonstration of numbers are not everything ?

Ps : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias