Adding outboard power amps is not about small/big room.
It is for scale and headroom.
Cheers,
Raghu
Help with selecting the right Power Amplifier
- Thread starter Love4sound
- Start date
It is for scale and headroom.
Cheers,
Raghu
syednizamudeen
Active Member
There should be enough headroom just with the AVR with most speakers that comes with matching centers and surrounds in a small to medium sized room. For a speaker setup like the original poster has. (Dali Zensor Mains and Center). I feel the PA wouldn't bring a valuable improvement if he spends 50k-1l on a PA if the current AVR doesn't struggle to play at high volume levels.
Food for thought. So as per your experience, adding a power amp has no audible advantages/ improvement in sq vis-a-vis a small room?
syednizamudeen
Active Member
If you have experienced, then its great.. But the dynamics you are referring might also be a placebo.. That's why I said getting the top of the line AVR too offers double the power output and should get you what you wanted in the first place with a single box.
With my little experience, I did too find my speakers sung better with a good amplification at slightly higher levels. ( I went from the Marantz SR 5009 to SR 7013). But, if dynamics is what we crave, getting a speaker that's dynamic will bring more difference to the table than a PA.
Just, what I think...
syednizamudeen
Active Member
I feel If the AVR doesn't strain to fill enough the room at high volumes, a PA would add a very little or no value to the chain. The speakers might also can be a bottle neck. We got to look into that angle too, right??
In this context, with the OP's speaker setup, I feel so.. I'm not saying amps don't colour the sound or bring a difference.
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Love4sound
Well-Known Member
No it’s not placebo. PA wil bring out the best from any speakers. May be you haven’t experienced it. I just got a 100 watts rms 5 channel PA and I can very well assure you the difference was well noticeable. Getting better speakers will only give marginal improvements or as much as improvements the avr can bring. Gene from Audioholic’s did RTA on the 8012 which is the only avr with a massive PA like toroidal transformer and it was able to deliver 96 watts when 5 channels driven. Adding more channels reduced to 70%. Getting 8500 is pure waste of money. Even if I sell 4500 I need to put additional 1.5 or 1.8L. For the same amount if I get a PA the performance will be better then driving my speakers with 8500 alone and also if I want to upgrade to more powerful speakers in the future the PA will be helpful.
Thats why i felt its food for thought. I haven’t experienced a good power amp yet so i can’t say. Im getting a power amp soon so I’ll fill in with my experience in a few days regarding whether there was an improvement in sq at the same reference decibels with the power amp as opposed to without it. Till then, i’ll hold my peace on this subject and absorb some more opinions.I feel If the AVR doesn't strain to fill enough the room at high volumes, a PA would add a very little or no value to the chain. The speakers might also can be a bottle neck. We got to look into that angle too, right??
In this context, with the OP's speaker setup, I feel so.. I'm not saying amps don't colour the sound or bring a difference.
Thats why i felt its food for thought. I haven’t experienced a good power amp yet so i can’t say. Im getting a power amp soon so I’ll fill in with my experience in a few days regarding whether there was an improvement in sq at the same reference decibels with the power amp as opposed to without it. Till then, i’ll hold my peace on this subject and absorb some more opinions.
How about the XLS1502, did you find them to give a tangible improvement over and above your 6013 primarily for movie experience and secondly towards music ?
syednizamudeen
Active Member
Please do share your thoughts if you get it.. I was too lusting for a PA/Integrated Amp with a HT Bypass a 4 months back... But, went with the speaker upgrade to begin with.. I'll definitely would try a PA. But, only when I drive 9 channels together in my room..I'm presently driving only 5 channels with efficient speakers. (all above 90 db/w/m with nominal impedance of 8 ohms).Thats why i felt its food for thought. I haven’t experienced a good power amp yet so i can’t say. Im getting a power amp soon so I’ll fill in with my experience in a few days regarding whether there was an improvement in sq at the same reference decibels with the power amp as opposed to without it. Till then, i’ll hold my peace on this subject and absorb some more opinions.
Thanks for sharing..
I'm not entirely sure yet. There were too many variables in the mix to form a definitive opinion. When connected to the preamp outs of my SR6013 in the primary listening position of my living room, at the same reference SPL/db/gain (not sure what the correct term should be), the presentation differs with the Crown but on an objective comparison, I won't say it is better. Of course, when i push the volume up, the crown never loses composure and remains dynamically surefooted while the SR6013 starts to sound wooden with dynamic shifts much less apparent on it. However, insofar as the same volumes are concerned, there isn't a huge improvement in SQ with the aforementioned improvement in dynamic ability somewhat. That's where the dilemma kicks in. I prefer the Marantz PM6006 to both the SR6013 and the Crown XLS1502 in almost every aspect of the sonic presentation in the primary listening position though the Crown can reach higher peak db without distorting.
In the secondary listening position is where things get a bit interesting. This is the position where the speakers should be ideally placed in my room and where they are able to put their best foot forward in every aspect of the sonic presentation. Out here, the crown sounds absolutely incredible paired with any speaker (never tried the Quad S5s since moving them back and forth would require some assistance from Lord Hanuman and I have got a few more years of my penance to go before he is appeased). But here's the catch, i haven't done a back to back yet and its been some time since I tried the PM6006 in the secondary listening position. However, from what i recollect, it also sounded great. I think a quick comparo is due very soon.
HT bypass is a feature of a preamp (or the preamp section of an IA).
Trust me, out-board power amps in an HT setup are worth exploring if you can afford, procure and host them.
I used to run a 3.0 using Outlaw M2200 monos for fronts.
Absolute beasts when it comes to HT performance. Not bad for music either.
Had no sub then, just the KEF R300 for L/R and a small B&W center.
Dynamic range in movie tracks or effects were definitely palpable. Not just loudness.
Cheers,
Raghu
syednizamudeen
Active Member
I understand even doubling the Watts in the PA just gets you just an extra 3db in the same volume level. Delivering continuous clean power is what really matters. But, if dynamics is what one craving, Swapping the loudspeaker would bring more dynamics than changing the amplifier. The KEF R300s should be spacious and open, fast and refined. But, the R300's cannot be made as dynamic as a horn loaded speaker by just adding a power amplifier.
I also don't disagree to the fact that the continuous cleaner power is more vital than power quantity itself and a PA would deliver more cleaner power.
But, does adding a PA always improve DR??
May be...
Have read praises about the Outlaw M2200 Monos.. Did you import them?? Are you using a Pre - Pro??
Well ....
Aren't DR and headroom the same side of the coin, just seen from the component side?
A speaker, say KEF R300, is capable of 110dB SPL max (1 meter).
For a good movie experience, say I need 80-85 dB at seating position.
This speaker is 88dB sensitivity; at 10W it does about 96-99 dB (1 meter).
At seating position this would be about 85-90 dB.
If in the movie soundtrack there's content that is 10 dB higher momentarily, the power draw is 100W.
My AVR definitely cops out (it is a little 50 watter) . This where the outboard amps shine.
To present the full dynamic range in movie content two things are necessary, as I understand it:
- speakers capable of higher SPL (clean rendition)
- amps capable of higher instantaneous current/power (clean delivery)
Horn loaded speakers have the advantage of higher sensitivity, agreed.
Eg. Klipsch will work very well in HT, but they are not for all kinds of ears.
These will sound absolutely harsh for music.
I may have got this wrong, have not explored more in HT for almost 6-8 years now
About Outlaw Audio M2200, procured from US (a friend was relocating)
Yes, I run 2 pre-pwr combinations but its mostly for 2-channel.
In fact the HT setup is 3.1 (and there are compromises here)
Signature has the configs I use for movies/HT
Cheers,
Raghu
Aren't DR and headroom the same side of the coin, just seen from the component side?
A speaker, say KEF R300, is capable of 110dB SPL max (1 meter).
For a good movie experience, say I need 80-85 dB at seating position.
This speaker is 88dB sensitivity; at 10W it does about 96-99 dB (1 meter).
At seating position this would be about 85-90 dB.
If in the movie soundtrack there's content that is 10 dB higher momentarily, the power draw is 100W.
My AVR definitely cops out (it is a little 50 watter) . This where the outboard amps shine.
To present the full dynamic range in movie content two things are necessary, as I understand it:
- speakers capable of higher SPL (clean rendition)
- amps capable of higher instantaneous current/power (clean delivery)
Horn loaded speakers have the advantage of higher sensitivity, agreed.
Eg. Klipsch will work very well in HT, but they are not for all kinds of ears.
These will sound absolutely harsh for music.
I may have got this wrong, have not explored more in HT for almost 6-8 years now
About Outlaw Audio M2200, procured from US (a friend was relocating)
Yes, I run 2 pre-pwr combinations but its mostly for 2-channel.
In fact the HT setup is 3.1 (and there are compromises here)
Signature has the configs I use for movies/HT
Cheers,
Raghu
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Recently added Emotiva Gen3 3 channel power amp to my setup !. What a difference . It just woke up the speakers , mid punch and highs are great even with low volumes which i never heard before!. My center channel also massively improved , i could hear the vocals clearly now !.
The volume level it is increasing but , its not about only the volume i think , it increases the over all clarity and mid bass. I experiment this by connecting my speakers back to AVR directly , this time mid punch and clarity was low. Second advantage is i can hear the sound with more louder without distortion in high volume. In my case my speakers are 150 watts rated now , my PA is giving double time the power (300 watts RMS). When i upgrade the speakers later with that capability 200 to 300 watts rms it will increase more SPL and hence it will improve more SQ i believe!.
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Yeah correct , its day night difference!. I also noted Noice level also reduced much apart from mid and highs punch. It sounds clean..
Over all It improves the sound quality by 50% I went for emotiva Gen-3 keeping future upgrade of my speakers in mind.
Generally power amps are very expensive , Its up to individual whether to spend or not!!.
For my case i felt it's worth , and its one time investment. Emotiva is giving 5 years warranty also , though generally power amps generally tend not to get any issues and lost longer.
There are some bargains to be found if buying used.
E.g: On OLX there a Krell 5/7 ch power amp for 1L+ (in Bangalore)
If able to source from US, there are some good products that affordable.
E.g: the Parasound power amp I have (hand carried in a suitcase)
Cheers,
Raghu
I also checked parasound one of the Good brand PAs. Do not know why they are quite expensive in India. Parasound A51 Halo (They are more than 4L). One has to source from US to get better price i think. Emotivas are decently priced in india.
Oh ... One doesn't need Halo series for HT. NC or Zone-Master series will work just fine.
NC is good for music too. Zone-master can actually take speaker level input.
Lots of control options.
Cheers,
Raghu
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