Help with selecting the right Power Amplifier

[Passive_audio_enthusiast]

THanks.. Will share expereince..



Don't worry abt THD % of 0.05 or 0.08.. Adding power amp will help AVR offload the power to other channels..

That’s true. Speakers generally have THDs higher than 1%. Depending on the synergy with the amp, they can sound good or bad.

 

[syednizamudeen]

Recently added Emotiva Gen3 3 channel power amp to my setup !. What a difference . It just woke up the speakers , mid punch and highs are great even with low volumes which i never heard before!. My center channel also massively improved , i could hear the vocals clearly now !.

The volume level it is increasing but , its not about only the volume i think , it increases the over all clarity and mid bass. I experiment this by connecting my speakers back to AVR directly , this time mid punch and clarity was low. Second advantage is i can hear the sound with more louder without distortion in high volume. In my case my speakers are 150 watts rated now , my PA is giving double time the power (300 watts RMS). When i upgrade the speakers later with that capability 200 to 300 watts rms it will increase more SPL and hence it will improve more SQ i believe!.

Great Man, may I know what speakers you have right now and I guess you are using a Denon X 4500 as the preamp( I'm guessing in muscle memory).

I asked for an XPA-2 Gen 3 from a chennai dealer, I received a quote for 92,500 Nett back in 2018..when did you get your XPA-3.?? May I know how much did you afford for the XPA-3 and when??

 

[RajithKumar]

Please do share your thoughts if you get it.. I was too lusting for a PA/Integrated Amp with a HT Bypass a 4 months back... But, went with the speaker upgrade to begin with.. I'll definitely would try a PA. But, only when I drive 9 channels together in my room..I'm presently driving only 5 channels with efficient speakers. (all above 90 db/w/m with nominal impedance of 8 ohms).

Thanks for sharing..

Hi ! I feel It greatly depends upon how loud your listening habits are. A good PA definitely add great value to the chain.

I understand even doubling the Watts in the PA just gets you just an extra 3db in the same volume level. Delivering continuous clean power is what really matters. But, if dynamics is what one craving, Swapping the loudspeaker would bring more dynamics than changing the amplifier. The KEF R300s should be spacious and open, fast and refined. But, the R300's cannot be made as dynamic as a horn loaded speaker by just adding a power amplifier.

I also don't disagree to the fact that the continuous cleaner power is more vital than power quantity itself and a PA would deliver more cleaner power.

But, does adding a PA always improve DR??

May be...

Have read praises about the Outlaw M2200 Monos.. Did you import them?? Are you using a Pre - Pro??

May I know what is the setup you are having.
Do you use any PA or only AVR in your setup.In case if you haven't tried PA in your setup ,it's highly recommended to try it out first .Based on my experience ,adding a good PA have benefited me a lot.Now I can't imagine going back.
Initially I was an user of Denon X500,then X2200 then upgrading to Marantz SR8012 have shown a good difference ( since 8012 uses a huge Toroidal Transformers in AVR category) .But after adding AMC power amp it had shown me improvement ,but some colouration of sound was there.( That may be due to the amp characteristics)

But then after upgrading to ATI power amp it ( which was a beast) ,there was huge improvement on sound like Tonality ,vocal clarity ,dynamics ,the mids have opened well ,felt good punch and headroom etc.
By adding a good PA u can easily push the sound above reference level ( in case if ur room was well treated) .If u wish do the same with only AVR ,it may start crying or go unbearable also it may clip.
Also you should have capable speakers to go above reference level.

 

[edjamesx]

Great Man, may I know what speakers you have right now and I guess you are using a Denon X 4500 as the preamp( I'm guessing in muscle memory).

I asked for an XPA-2 Gen 3 from a chennai dealer, I received a quote for 92,500 Nett back in 2018..when did you get your XPA-3.?? May I know how much did you afford for the XPA-3 and when??

I have Denon 3600h . I have Sonodyne Towers Sonus 3165 + Sonodyne Center , Surround speakers. These speakers are 150 watts rated. Probably down the line after one or two years i might upgrade my speakers. For future proof i have purchased 300 watts RMS rated gen-3 emotiva PAs.

You may look at Gen-3 as they have lowest THD 0.005%.

I have purchased two weeks ago.

 

[raghupb]

@edjamesx
Amps don't give "watts". It's the speakers that demand "watts".
So the max wattage of a speaker is of lower importance spec wise.
Speaker wise the important specs are:
- min and max SPL
- impedance across the frequency spectrum (LF usually causes dips in impedance in some speaker designs)

Amp wise the important specs are (assuming class A/B here):
- instantaneous current capacity (power rails should not sag/lag behind demand)
- clean delivery over at least 60-70% of max wattage (meaning a good PS section)

A 300W amp does not need a 300W speaker and vice versa.

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[edjamesx]

A 300W amp does not need a 300W speaker and vice versa.

Cheers,
Raghu

Thanks raghu.
You mean My amp does not feed 300 watts , instead it feeds only 150 watts to my speaker demands.
Initially i was looking for 150 watts power Amp only to my Speaker demand. For future proof of my PA when i upgrade the speakers , i went with 300 watts PA. I dont think we need more than 300 watts speakers for Home purpose even if i upgrade speakers in future.

 

[raghupb]

The signal from amp to speaker is a voltage (V). Speakers don't like to be disturbed, so they impede or resist (R).
To hold that voltage, the power supply section must have enough current capacity (I).
Ohm's law says, V = I*R or I = V/R
Power (P) = V*I or V(sq)/R

When impedance dips, current draw is higher hence power draw is higher.
If current maxes out something has to give, that's voltage level.
When this happens, it clips or distorts.

To hold the voltage at intended level, a good PS section capable of sufficient current is necessary.
Then come those big/fat caps that can provide instantaneous current too.

If your speakers are say 87-89dB efficient/sensitive and have a stable impedance behavior across audio spectrum,
- the power draw in normal listening levels will be 10-20W
- power draw in HT/movie levels will be 20-40W
- the rest of the juice in amp is headroom for those intense passages in music/movies

A bit of math, but hope you get the idea.
Cheers,
Raghu

 

[edjamesx]

The signal from amp to speaker is a voltage (V). Speakers don't like to be disturbed, so they impede or resist (R).
To hold that voltage, the power supply section must have enough current capacity (I).
Ohm's law says, V = I*R or I = V/R
Power (P) = V*I or V(sq)/R

When impedance dips, current draw is higher hence power draw is higher.
If current maxes out something has to give, that's voltage level.
When this happens, it clips or distorts.

To hold the voltage at intended level, a good PS section capable of sufficient current is necessary.
Then come those big/fat caps that can provide instantaneous current too.

If your speakers are say 87-89dB efficient/sensitive and have a stable impedance behavior across audio spectrum,
- the power draw in normal listening levels will be 10-20W
- power draw in HT/movie levels will be 20-40W
- the rest of the juice in amp is headroom for those intense passages in music/movies

A bit of math, but hope you get the idea.
Cheers,
Raghu

Thanks. its complex math i don't understand much.
So , What will happen when we overpower the speakers ?.

My Speaker 150 watts
My Amp feeding 300 watts

In my case Is my speaker being driven in 300 watts or 150 watts?. I think Amp pushes its max watts as per its potential ,without bothering about speaker demands.

Also i believe the watts also critical factor for speaker to be louder , and to be able to give good SQ along with other critical factors you mentioned.
As you mentioned Considering only watts for speaker will not be good idea. We need to look in to other speaker specs as well.

 

[raghupb]

Thanks. its complex math i don't understand much.
So , What will happen when we overpower the speakers ?.

My Speaker 150 watts
My Amp feeding 300 watts

In my case Is my speaker being driven in 300 watts or 150 watts?. I think Amp pushes its max watts as per its potential ,without bothering about speaker demands.

In normal operating conditions you can't overpower speakers.
Unless you accidentally max out volume or feed the source directly without volume control.
Before you reach the rated power of speaker, the SPL or loudness will limit you.

The speaker is driven by the amount of watts it demands at the listening level.
If the demand is not met (under powered amp), clipping and distortion kicks in.
This is more common and harmful to the speaker.
Thus the need for outboard amplification

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[ktks1]

The speaker is driven by the amount of watts it demands at the listening level.
If the demand is not met (under powered amp), clipping and distortion kicks in.
This is more common and harmful to the speaker.
Thus the need for outboard amplification

Cheers,
Raghu

Just to add:
One of the reasons why people go for high-efficiency speakers.
If they have sensitivity greater than 95 dB 1W/1m, you will only need around 10 clean watts to make them roar in a room.
Many revered tube amps have <10W output and the output is pure bliss. You'll go deaf before such speakers use 50 watts from your amps!

 

[DB1989]

Hi ! I feel It greatly depends upon how loud your listening habits are. A good PA definitely add great value to the chain.

May I know what is the setup you are having.
Do you use any PA or only AVR in your setup.In case if you haven't tried PA in your setup ,it's highly recommended to try it out first .Based on my experience ,adding a good PA have benefited me a lot.Now I can't imagine going back.
Initially I was an user of Denon X500,then X2200 then upgrading to Marantz SR8012 have shown a good difference ( since 8012 uses a huge Toroidal Transformers in AVR category) .But after adding AMC power amp it had shown me improvement ,but some colouration of sound was there.( That may be due to the amp characteristics)

But then after upgrading to ATI power amp it ( which was a beast) ,there was huge improvement on sound like Tonality ,vocal clarity ,dynamics ,the mids have opened well ,felt good punch and headroom etc.
By adding a good PA u can easily push the sound above reference level ( in case if ur room was well treated) .If u wish do the same with only AVR ,it may start crying or go unbearable also it may clip.
Also you should have capable speakers to go above reference level.

@syednizamudeen - the above-said hands on user experience with the 8012 seems to clarify certain aspects about your theory.

 

[syednizamudeen]

Hi ! I feel It greatly depends upon how loud your listening habits are. A good PA definitely add great value to the chain.

May I know what is the setup you are having.
Do you use any PA or only AVR in your setup.In case if you haven't tried PA in your setup ,it's highly recommended to try it out first .Based on my experience ,adding a good PA have benefited me a lot.Now I can't imagine going back.
Initially I was an user of Denon X500,then X2200 then upgrading to Marantz SR8012 have shown a good difference ( since 8012 uses a huge Toroidal Transformers in AVR category) .But after adding AMC power amp it had shown me improvement ,but some colouration of sound was there.( That may be due to the amp characteristics)

But then after upgrading to ATI power amp it ( which was a beast) ,there was huge improvement on sound like Tonality ,vocal clarity ,dynamics ,the mids have opened well ,felt good punch and headroom etc.
By adding a good PA u can easily push the sound above reference level ( in case if ur room was well treated) .If u wish do the same with only AVR ,it may start crying or go unbearable also it may clip.
Also you should have capable speakers to go above reference level.

Now, this is a great response. I'm currently using a Marantz SR 7013 AVR without any external amplification. I'm not in a boat saying PA doesn't do anything at all. But, adding a PA that too under 50-1l with his speaker setup, I felt it wouldn't be a great value to his chain. His speakers were Dali Zensors and matching Centers and surrounds. He was already very happy with his listening levels and his room doesn't seem that big or he isn't going to put more money in the PA. Thus, I suggested if dynamic range is what he is craving, getting a speaker that is dynamic or getting the top of the line AVR should just suffice for convenience and double the power.. I know double the power just adds 3db to the volume level. The PA also delivers cleaner power than the AVR. But, if the speakers are already playing its best, why not change the speakers if dynamic range is what one seeks.

I'm too concerned about clean power that's why I went from SR 5009 to SR 7013.i could have went with the 6013, I chose 7013 for that slightly bigger power supply and able to play with less distortion. I didn't choose 7013 for its fancy front screen or Auro 3D support. PA definitely makes a very good sense, if one is driving a speaker that's meant to be designed to cater in a stereo setup. Yes. PA does definitely make the speaker sing without tapering at higher levels. But, if one is happy at the listening levels just with the AVR,i felt the PA wouldn't add more value to the chain.

Now coming to my story, with the SR 7013, I'm going to drive a Paradigm Premier 800F, Premier 600C center and a pair of NHT SuperZero 2.1's in 5.2 config. (Dual SVS PB-1000 sub woofers)

Currently, I'm using a Paradigm Monitor 9 S7 and Monitor Center 3 instead of the Premiers. My room is a closed bed room with size 16 x 14 x 12 (l x b x h). With no treatments though. But, Ive filled with furnishings, heavy curtains, baby items and passes the clap test and they are not nicely treated or too dead. I'd say jumping from the SR 5009 to SR 7013 did make a very good difference not just in music. But, in movies too. MY current and upcoming speakers except my surrounds are 8 ohm nominal speakers and they are all sensitive above 90db/W/m. I wouldn't be going over - 15db (at the max) for movies and I feel AVR drives them just fine till - 20 dB (-25 dB is what I keep). So, I feel the AVR just does the job for me. But, it wasn't the case with SR 5009. The stereo performance tapered even at lower levels and couldn't drive my present speakers to these levels nicely.

My plan is to change the speakers, use the AVR and later in time buy two more pair of surrounds and mount it on ceiling and then if I find the AVR struggling, I'd go for a quality PA that's well regarded only to power the front stage and the rest of the channels would be handled enough by the AVR. When the 7013 dies, I would go to the SR 801x and then separates when time demands. I'm definitely not against power amps or separates. But, i feel If the room is small and the speakers are not demanding and very dynamic like the Klipsch's, one can very well be happy with a good quality AVR.

But, thanks for sharing your story and please feel free to share what speakers do you have and which model PA do you use share the price of PA, if that's OK....

Thanks again for your time.

 

[syednizamudeen]

@syednizamudeen - the above-said hands on user experience with the 8012 seems to clarify certain aspects about your theory.

Yeah yeah...and also latest AVRs are getting almost as good these days. Latest AVR's from Denon and Marantz come with Preamp only mode that gets the AVR to completely shut down the circuits to the internal Power Amp and also it seems to measure well.

 

[syednizamudeen]

I have Denon 3600h . I have Sonodyne Towers Sonus 3165 + Sonodyne Center , Surround speakers. These speakers are 150 watts rated. Probably down the line after one or two years i might upgrade my speakers. For future proof i have purchased 300 watts RMS rated gen-3 emotiva PAs.

You may look at Gen-3 as they have lowest THD 0.005%.

I have purchased two weeks ago.

The XPAs are very good.. An XPA - 2 would be my first PA if I likely to try one..

How much did you get the XPA - 2 for?? Bought in India?? I was quoted 92,500 nett by my chennai dealer, 2 years back... But, I didn't buy a PA yet. Just jumping 2 blocks above the Marantz line (Marantz SR 5009 to SR 7013) did indeed satisfy my movie watching experience and I did crave for cleaner vocals in music and I wished the music had more sound stage and slightly a bit more dynamic. So, went with the speaker's way..

Most PA owners don't sell.. Because, it lives longer and can be used very well in the future too.

Many thanks guys, for your valuable inputs...

 

[raghupb]

<snip>
Most PA owners don't sell.. Because, it lives longer and can be used very well in the future too.
<snip>

This is very much true because they are heavy component/s and are a pain to procure.
Once you get it right, they are keepers.

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[syednizamudeen]

For those who are wondering why do I need a Pre-Pro when one can connect a PA to the AVR through its pre-outs instead, the answer in the starting 3 minutes of this video.

Courtesy : Audioholics

 

[edjamesx]

For those who are wondering why do I need a Pre-Pro when one can connect a PA to the AVR through its pre-outs instead, the answer in the starting 3 minutes of this video.

Courtesy : Audioholics

Yes correct, Using Pre-pro has advantages. That's why they are super expensive... If one can afford they can go with pre-pro instead of AVR preouts.

 

[RajithKumar]

Now, this is a great response. I'm currently using a Marantz SR 7013 AVR without any external amplification. I'm not in a boat saying PA doesn't do anything at all. But, adding a PA that too under 50-1l with his speaker setup, I felt it wouldn't be a great value to his chain. His speakers were Dali Zensors and matching Centers and surrounds. He was already very happy with his listening levels and his room doesn't seem that big or he isn't going to put more money in the PA. Thus, I suggested if dynamic range is what he is craving, getting a speaker that is dynamic or getting the top of the line AVR should just suffice for convenience and double the power.. I know double the power just adds 3db to the volume level. The PA also delivers cleaner power than the AVR. But, if the speakers are already playing its best, why not change the speakers if dynamic range is what one seeks.

I'm too concerned about clean power that's why I went from SR 5009 to SR 7013.i could have went with the 6013, I chose 7013 for that slightly bigger power supply and able to play with less distortion. I didn't choose 7013 for its fancy front screen or Auro 3D support. PA definitely makes a very good sense, if one is driving a speaker that's meant to be designed to cater in a stereo setup. Yes. PA does definitely make the speaker sing without tapering at higher levels. But, if one is happy at the listening levels just with the AVR,i felt the PA wouldn't add more value to the chain.

Now coming to my story, with the SR 7013, I'm going to drive a Paradigm Premier 800F, Premier 600C center and a pair of NHT SuperZero 2.1's in 5.2 config. (Dual SVS PB-1000 sub woofers)

Currently, I'm using a Paradigm Monitor 9 S7 and Monitor Center 3 instead of the Premiers. My room is a closed bed room with size 16 x 14 x 12 (l x b x h). With no treatments though. But, Ive filled with furnishings, heavy curtains, baby items and passes the clap test and they are not nicely treated or too dead. I'd say jumping from the SR 5009 to SR 7013 did make a very good difference not just in music. But, in movies too. MY current and upcoming speakers except my surrounds are 8 ohm nominal speakers and they are all sensitive above 90db/W/m. I wouldn't be going over - 15db (at the max) for movies and I feel AVR drives them just fine till - 20 dB (-25 dB is what I keep). So, I feel the AVR just does the job for me. But, it wasn't the case with SR 5009. The stereo performance tapered even at lower levels and couldn't drive my present speakers to these levels nicely.

My plan is to change the speakers, use the AVR and later in time buy two more pair of surrounds and mount it on ceiling and then if I find the AVR struggling, I'd go for a quality PA that's well regarded only to power the front stage and the rest of the channels would be handled enough by the AVR. When the 7013 dies, I would go to the SR 801x and then separates when time demands. I'm definitely not against power amps or separates. But, i feel If the room is small and the speakers are not demanding and very dynamic like the Klipsch's, one can very well be happy with a good quality AVR.

But, thanks for sharing your story and please feel free to share what speakers do you have and which model PA do you use share the price of PA, if that's OK....

Thanks again for your time.

Even for small rooms I feel a good PA makes a good difference.Also for high sensitivity speakers too..
Presently most of AVR power ratings are exagerrated for marketing reasons.( Also mostly 2 or one channel rated )Only a bench test may reveal it's true power rating.
Presently OP is driving 7 speakers using X4500 in which I beleive around 30 to 50 watts approx may be pushed by AVR on all channels.
Good PA provides cleaner power on the discrete channels in which you can enjoy the dynamics ,punch etc.
Also based on my experience more details will be revealed when u start listening on higher levels ( mine is around -7.5db to - 1.5db depending upon the tracks) .But it's majorly depends upon user to user ,Most of people don't like to listen on higher levels.
Also I have used Zensor 5 initialy as fronts,within that I could able to see the difference by adding PA.
Based on that I can tell the OP will definitely gets benefited by a adding a good PA.
My current speaker is Wharfedale Linton Heritage as fronts.

Coming to my Power amp ,its ATI 1506 ( used one in mint condition) sourced from abroad through a dealer ( I paid an hefty price even for a used one,will ping you the price if you are really interested).New ones prices will be very very costly.ATI is one of highly regarded manufacturer of PA in US for HT.If you can find one in the market ,it's highly recommended to grab it.

 

[RajithKumar]

For those who are wondering why do I need a Pre-Pro when one can connect a PA to the AVR through its pre-outs instead, the answer in the starting 3 minutes of this video.

Courtesy : Audioholics

Yes Mr.Gene from Audioholics is one who reveals the secrets / false marketing by manufacturers to people like us.I really appreciate his contribution on that.

 

[edjamesx]

Now, this is a great response. I'm currently using a Marantz SR 7013 AVR without any external amplification. I'm not in a boat saying PA doesn't do anything at all. But, adding a PA that too under 50-1l with his speaker setup, I felt it wouldn't be a great value to his chain. His speakers were Dali Zensors and matching Centers and surrounds. He was already very happy with his listening levels and his room doesn't seem that big or he isn't going to put more money in the PA. Thus, I suggested if dynamic range is what he is craving, getting a speaker that is dynamic or getting the top of the line AVR should just suffice for convenience and double the power.. I know double the power just adds 3db to the volume level. The PA also delivers cleaner power than the AVR. But, if the speakers are already playing its best, why not change the speakers if dynamic range is what one seeks.

I'm too concerned about clean power that's why I went from SR 5009 to SR 7013.i could have went with the 6013, I chose 7013 for that slightly bigger power supply and able to play with less distortion. I didn't choose 7013 for its fancy front screen or Auro 3D support. PA definitely makes a very good sense, if one is driving a speaker that's meant to be designed to cater in a stereo setup. Yes. PA does definitely make the speaker sing without tapering at higher levels. But, if one is happy at the listening levels just with the AVR,i felt the PA wouldn't add more value to the chain.

It will add value definitely . Considering the speakers can handle power of more than 150 -200 watts.
These days speakers are coming up with excellent specs, But finding a matching AVR is not easy and cheap.
Also Unfortunately even high end AVR provides power till 200 watts / 2 channel driven , u will get roughly 70 to 80 watts RMS per speaker in average in 11.1 setup ).
Anyday Power is the main fuel for speakers , where other specs are for the purity and refinement of the fuel .
That's where These Power Amp shines in purity ,refinement and quantity . Power amps brings the dynamics in sound where no AVR can bring out such dynamics.

Its true that high sensitivity speakers can be driven by low wattage AVRS and it gives decent sound. But it works best when you feed the demanded power.

I noted many benefits of adding power amps.
Good Sound dynamics and great sound stage
Crystal Clear Vocals
Good mid punch (i never got such mids with AVR) / Looks like Now only my mid bass speakers working on my towers after adding Power Amp.
Less Noice level
Good for AVR/ since power distributed to Power Amp
Listening on High volumes are great and sweet / it does not hurt the ears . (With direct AVR out , the same volume level is not bearable).

If someone look for next upgrade in their HT setup , they should consider adding Power Amp and check with existing speaker setup , then later upgrade speakers if needed.

Any day power Amp is going to add great value to any speaker setup.