Help with selecting the right Power Amplifier

[ankitbhargava]

To add to your point Raghu , depsite owning an AVR with decent amount or power at 2 channel @ 8 ohms , the crown performs noticeably better than the AVR for music in my case. I am very excited to try out a Class AB power amp to see what it further brings to the table.

Also we have IndiqAudio providing 2 weeks no question asked full refund for their Saptak Mononlock poweramps. For people really interested in investing in a PA but are worried about their effectiveness this is a perfect platform since if they feel that it has not added any value they dont lose any money either.

That is a very powerful proposition indeed!
I ordered a Crown XLS 1502 from Amazon for the reason that I can return it back if I don't find any value adding it to my setup. I plan to do a rigorous testing for couple of hours to find even if it adds a little value to my Movies "listening" experience.

I have been really unimpressed by the stereo listening of music (which is barely ones a week) and therefore I would also give music a try to gauge any improvement upon the dynamics, tonality, separation, overall soundstage etc.

 

[ankitbhargava]

To add to your point Raghu , depsite owning an AVR with decent amount or power at 2 channel @ 8 ohms , the crown performs noticeably better than the AVR for music in my case. I am very excited to try out a Class AB power amp to see what it further brings to the table.

Also we have IndiqAudio providing 2 weeks no question asked full refund for their Saptak Mononlock poweramps. For people really interested in investing in a PA but are worried about their effectiveness this is a perfect platform since if they feel that it has not added any value they dont lose any money either.

And I was so happy to see IndiqAudio website and products, at least we have someone to represent India.

 

[ankitbhargava]

Yeah.. Let's see... There will be a bit of bias as you will put your hard earned money of the PA..

A double blind test with proper level matching will be the ultimate test.

There's no denying that a good amplifier brings the best out of a given speaker. But, how much better at what cost?? Is the question to be asked.

There are some cheaper speakers out there which really benefits from high quality, high power, expensive amplifiers like the Magnepans.. But, I feel most affordable and commonly known speakers benefit a very little to none from a quality PA in terms of SQ in Movies... But, as your goal is to get your system to be louder, there's no doubt you'll get that with XLS 1502..

Just sharing a snippet of Soundstage Hifi review of my new speakers that I'm going to buy something that has to do much with the Power Amplifier. NOTE : its a Critical STEREO Music review...;-)

Enjoy and post your personal experiences, My Friend... Eager to read your thoughts...

I have a 7 days return policy from Amazon covered me to return back if 1502 is not adding any value to the HT setup.

This is how I plan to test when 1502 arrives, please let me know if there are any suggestions

1. I will use Crown to power my Front Left and Right (Klipsch RP260F)
2. After connections done, I will re-run the Audessey (though lately I am not using XT32 filters while watching movies) for level matching. I recently also level matched the speakers by using UMIK and REW for a better accuracy. Is it normal?
3. Is there any other setting I need to take care before testing?
4. I have some go to scenes for Movies which by now I know very well how they sound and if there are any degrades/improvement. I will try both online streaming and offline lossless content I have.
5. I plan to use iTunes/Apple Music for trying Music (because thats what I use regularly), I may download some Flacs if I have any suggestions. Probably. Again I listen to few tracks often and I can make out when they sound bad or better on various parameters.

 

[venkatcr]

Unless the AVR and amplifier are integrated units, do not run Audessey with the amp connected. Here is what you should do.

(1) When the amp arrives, run Audessey on the AVR all by itself. In a quite room, the AVR will set the speakers to sound at roughly 65-70dB with each channel driven separately. On the internal amp, on a scale of 1:12, the level will be set to somewhere in between 3-5.

(2) Now connect the amp. Before you do anything else, go to manual settings on the AVR and set each speaker to deliver 80dB at your listening positing. I know you and others have been talking about >100dB, but we will set that aside for now.

(3) Set the default volume position to 50dB so that the AVR and Amp don't fry your ears.

(4) Now play your favorite movies and music.

Use a Blu-ray or DVD player to play a good movie and see how this works. Using anything less than DTS will not serve any purpose. To get a sense of size and sound stage Bohemian Rhapsody is a good bet. The camera constantly switches between Freddie on the stage and the crowd that should be some 20,000 strong. From the sharpness and clarity of Freddie's voice, you will suddenly be immersed in a huge sound coming from the crowd when they sing along.

Movies such as Saving Private Ryan, Dunkirk, etc will also give you a sense of a large sound stage. In war movies, when it is edited properly, the sound of guns firing are sharp, and those of bombs falling deep. Done properly, you can actually feel a bomb falling a mile away.

Other movies with great surround sound effects are Hurt Locker, American Sniper, John Wick 2, Guardians of the Galaxy, etc.

When you are listening to music, use a local source with a good DAC. Do not use streaming. When you are assessing a system, you must have all parameters other than what you are assessing as constant. In this case, only the amplifier must be in question.

All the best.

 

[fLUX]

Unless the AVR and amplifier are integrated units, do not run Audessey with the amp connected. Here is what you should do.

(1) When the amp arrives, run Audessey on the AVR all by itself. In a quite room, the AVR will set the speakers to sound at roughly 65-70dB with each channel driven separately. On the internal amp, on a scale of 1:12, the level will be set to somewhere in between 3-5.

(2) Now connect the amp. Before you do anything else, go to manual settings on the AVR and set each speaker to deliver 80dB at your listening positing. I know you and others have been talking about >100dB, but we will set that aside for now.

(3) Set the default volume position to 50dB so that the AVR and Amp don't fry your ears.

(4) Now play your favorite movies and music.

Use a Blu-ray or DVD player to play a good movie and see how this works. Using anything less than DTS will not serve any purpose. To get a sense of size and sound stage Bohemian Rhapsody is a good bet. The camera constantly switches between Freddie on the stage and the crowd that should be some 20,000 strong. From the sharpness and clarity of Freddie's voice, you will suddenly be immersed in a huge sound coming from the crowd when they sing along.

Movies such as Saving Private Ryan, Dunkirk, etc will also give you a sense of a large sound stage. In war movies, when it is edited properly, the sound of guns firing are sharp, and those of bombs falling deep. Done properly, you can actually feel a bomb falling a mile away.

Other movies with great surround sound effects are Hurt Locker, American Sniper, John Wick 2, Guardians of the Galaxy, etc.

When you are listening to music, use a local source with a good DAC. Do not use streaming. When you are assessing a system, you must have all parameters other than what you are assessing as constant. In this case, only the amplifier must be in question.

All the best.

Thanks a lot Venkat, that was very helpful.

 

[ankitbhargava]

Unless the AVR and amplifier are integrated units, do not run Audessey with the amp connected. Here is what you should do.

(1) When the amp arrives, run Audessey on the AVR all by itself. In a quite room, the AVR will set the speakers to sound at roughly 65-70dB with each channel driven separately. On the internal amp, on a scale of 1:12, the level will be set to somewhere in between 3-5.

(2) Now connect the amp. Before you do anything else, go to manual settings on the AVR and set each speaker to deliver 80dB at your listening positing. I know you and others have been talking about >100dB, but we will set that aside for now.

(3) Set the default volume position to 50dB so that the AVR and Amp don't fry your ears.

(4) Now play your favorite movies and music.

Use a Blu-ray or DVD player to play a good movie and see how this works. Using anything less than DTS will not serve any purpose. To get a sense of size and sound stage Bohemian Rhapsody is a good bet. The camera constantly switches between Freddie on the stage and the crowd that should be some 20,000 strong. From the sharpness and clarity of Freddie's voice, you will suddenly be immersed in a huge sound coming from the crowd when they sing along.

Movies such as Saving Private Ryan, Dunkirk, etc will also give you a sense of a large sound stage. In war movies, when it is edited properly, the sound of guns firing are sharp, and those of bombs falling deep. Done properly, you can actually feel a bomb falling a mile away.

Other movies with great surround sound effects are Hurt Locker, American Sniper, John Wick 2, Guardians of the Galaxy, etc.

When you are listening to music, use a local source with a good DAC. Do not use streaming. When you are assessing a system, you must have all parameters other than what you are assessing as constant. In this case, only the amplifier must be in question.

All the best.

Very helpful indeed! Few questions sir,
1. I just did not understand this part "On the internal amp, on a scale of 1:12, the level will be set to somewhere in between 3-5".
2. Now connect the amp. Before you do anything else, go to manual settings on the AVR and set each speaker to deliver 80dB at your listening positing. I know you and others have been talking about >100dB, but we will set that aside for now. --- > this applies to Subs also?
3. When should the Amp be wired to connect Fronts? With step 2?
4. To compare Stereo on AVR v/s AMP, should I be using "Direct" mode?

 

[syednizamudeen]

Correct me if i'm wrong but have your ears experienced a PA?

Yes.. I went to the dealer yesterday to pick my new speakers.

He was having a Paradigm Studio 100s hooked to the Marantz AV 7705 Pre amp and driven by a Marantz MM8077 PA (8 Ch PA 140w into 8 ohms I think or somewhere close). He said he has connected the center, main surrounds and back surrounds to it and I didn't care about centers or the surrounds. And he had hooked the atmos speakers to the MM7055( 5 ch PA same as 8077). Which wasnt taken into account I was demoing only two channel music feeding from Apple TV to Pre Pro and to the PA.

To my ears, the studio 100s treble sounded a tad bright, it presented excellent bass and it was fast and vocals were airy and it performed as it should.

I took my Premier 800F + 600C home from the dealer (I didn't hook up the center yet) and hooked up to my humble Marantz SR 7013 and placed the 800Fs where my old Monitor 9 was.(it was as per optimal position as per manual) and switched to Pure Direct so that there's no EQ or subwoofer involved.

The advantage of the Pre pro + PA + Studio 100 that I could perceive was the mid bass attack. It was weighty and fast. It was may be due to Studio 100s themselves. (I don't know). And, the dealers room was tastefully and acoustically treated and had a low noise floor and thus it was louder slightly at a given volume.

Now coming to my room, My system presented the trebles smoother yet detailed when compared to the Studios and the my system in fact imaged considerably better than I heard in demo. Only downfall was, I had to turn up the volume knob more to achieve the level I got in the demo room. Note that the demo room was properly treated and room was very quiet and noise floor in the room was minimum.

That was a part of 'ROOM' too. One can't just can't claim its due to PA alone..

In my room, I didn't feel I was lacking power to make the 800Fs sing.

Also, I didn't quote that to generalise that the PA never makes difference. I quoted that to tell you that PA doesn't always have to improve the sound by a huge margin or sometimes nothing at all.

Suppose, if I have a KEF R7 or even the little Magnepan LRS and ask any common AVR to do justice to those speakers, THEY DEFINITELY DON'T. THEY NEED PROPER HIGH QUALITY POWER AMPLIFICATION.

But, for those with speakers like Klipsch's, Paradigm (Premier or Monitor Line) or any speakers that are designed especially to be driven with an AVR, the AVR can do well for 90% percent of the people. If you have a luxury of borrowing an amp from friend or have a dealer with return policy, there's no problem in trying out the PA if you aren't satisfied with your setup.

I'll just share the picture of the demo room I was in yesterday for your reference.

Place : Acoustic Reference, Nagercoil.

 

[avtar2008]

with whatever light knowledge i have about amps, i think IA/PA do sound better in music than AVR, even when both are delivering same power wattage. I have experienced this when i switched from denon 3600h(105wpc, 2ch) to norge 1000 gold IA(125wpc).

I dont know the reason behind this

 

[syednizamudeen]

With the AVR as the direct ouput for music i felt the following lacking
i) Vocals - Sound thinner than with the power amp
ii) Instrument details - Not as prominent as with a power amp
iii) Lack of bite in treble

Not to say the AVR sounded bad , but there was a clear cut noticeable difference even by turning audyssey off to remove any tuning. The difference was even more prominent when i skipped the AVR as a pre altogether but i had not level matched the volume exactly so cant be sure. The lows produced by my speaker pumped out much more air and were much tighter with the power amp (subwoofer was turned off and my crossover on the AVR is at 40hz for the fronts).

From a movies perspective i cant be sure since i have not watched a movie yet on this setup with current setup (in either modes). Had a small trial run of Aquaman & Bahubali (over Netflix) and experience was good but nothing specific to make note of yet. But for movies with good background score , music am certain it will make a positive difference

You are right, Mr flux.. But, I feel its due to the speaker matching.

I dont think so , cheaper speakers will not be able to handle such power they will be blown away as you connect power Amp to them. With Every speaker manual they recommend to power the speaker with desired RMS watts , They always recommend to have maximum RMS watts or greater. AVRs in the market is not justifying feeding recommended power to them. Anything below recommended watts we are underpowering the speakers and limit its potential and there's chance of clipping which could damage speakers.

I agree good power AMPS are expensive , But it's a one time investment, and the one who's looking towards next level in their HT equipment they should consider adding power AMP. I dont think changing the speakers might give only minute difference unless you go for very high end speakers.
Highend speakers also will rock when feeding good power to them and they generally demand more power too.

Something applicable to AVR as well. I upgraded my onkyo AVR to Denon AVR , i do not find much difference with sound signature --except its little warmer.
After adding power AMP i felt much difference in clarity , great highs and mids.

Mr James, i agree too much of power is bad. But, it's not too bad like powering the power hungry speakers with underpowered amps. With high power amplifier you have got two tools to save your speakers and your amplifiers. Volume knob and ears. It's in fact hard to kill a speaker or electronics by feeding too much power unless one badly wants to murder it. More power is always good.

But, "Is more power necessary??" is the 'BIG' question here.

I also disagree with you on changing speakers part. Changing the speakers would bring you a considerable difference to your table tonal wise, imaging wise, depth and sound stage wise if those speakers are properly set up.

Every speaker is so different that a KEF can never be a Klipsch nor you can't expect a Klipsch to be transparent as a KEF or Maggie.

Electronics can make a Klipsch more Klipsch or less Klipsch. But, can't change the sound signature or tone by a considerable margin.

I also agree to your opinion that changing AVR brands too don't bring any substantial difference to the table when they really putout same output power and both AVR has the same room correction module.

 

[syednizamudeen]

I feel there's a lot of stuff being thrown around here on this thread.
In short, this is what I feel:
- if you have an AVR that's in the 50-70Wpc and it has at least 2 channel preouts, a simple PA like crown will add value
- if you have an AVR that's newer and in the 100-110Wpc and efficient speakers, adding a PA may be a hit or miss
- newer AVRs also have something called 70% guarantee; it should mean something
- if the AVR has multichannel preouts and one can afford and more importantly host PAs, it is worth a try (borrow first if possible)
- don't look at movies as only thump/whack/rumble; even action flicks have good enjoyable background scores
- so it is important that the overall experience be good musically too

My use case:
The AVR I have at home is a baby Marantz; it can barely do anything impactful sound wise.
As a basic AVR, it works in basic config. To get more out of the setup I needed outboard amps.
But please note, I already had the power amps when I decided to buy the AVR.
Currently, I have Monitor Audio Radius 45 (I call them pups) doing HT fronts.
These can easily be driven by the Marantz, but due to how my rig is wired and used, they are connected to a Parasound amp.

Cheers,
Raghu

I'm in the same boat with Mr. Raghu... Those are bullet points.

 

[syednizamudeen]

with whatever light knowledge i have about amps, i think IA/PA do sound better in music than AVR, even when both are delivering same power wattage. I have experienced this when i switched from denon 3600h(105wpc, 2ch) to norge 1000 gold IA(125wpc).

I dont know the reason behind this

Because your Denon could not deliver 105 wpc continuously at all.. It can only deliver 60-70 percent that's 60w...

Plus, signal paths in Norge are shorter and should be less complicated than Denon. Norge should have a better power supply as its purpose built only for stereo.

 

[syednizamudeen]

I see the crowns have caught traction with quite a few FMs! I'm very interested to hear about your initial listening experience. Do try the Crown without a sub to gauge what it does to your speakers when compared to driving them solely through your AVR (after Level matching).

If I may chip in with my two cents - other than the preouts of your AVR, do try out the crowns with a preamp or DAC. I've notice that the Crown really shines with a good source. And i'm not sure if burn in is an issue with digital amplification but i had to give it time for me to warm up to the sound; i hated it out of the box and was cursing myself for listening to andrew robinson (the youtuber).

Will eventually switch to separates down the line..

I'll try something like the Crown XLS or the Anthems or anything that's in the 200w range...proper 200w should be plenty for me.

 

[avtar2008]

Because your Denon could not deliver 105 wpc continuously at all.. It can only deliver 60-70 percent that's 60w...

Plus, signal paths in Norge are shorter and should be less complicated than Denon. Norge should have a better power supply as its purpose built only for stereo.

well that 60wpc is when all channel are driven, but in 2ch 6ohm, 3600h have same power as norge. So, diff in sound could be due to short circuitry,hence, cleaner power, and same can be applied for PA as well.

 

[raghupb]

with whatever light knowledge i have about amps, i think IA/PA do sound better in music than AVR, even when both are delivering same power wattage. I have experienced this when i switched from denon 3600h(105wpc, 2ch) to norge 1000 gold IA(125wpc).

I dont know the reason behind this

Better power supply section ....
Ability to generate and sustain high current (continuous and instantaneous) ....
Tonality ....
.... and more

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[raghupb]

<snip>
I also disagree with you on changing speakers part. Changing the speakers would bring you a considerable difference to your table tonal wise, imaging wise, depth and sound stage wise if those speakers are properly set up.
<snip>

Speaker selection is a big decision. A user buys a pair of speakers (or a set in case of HT) because of the sound signature.
And usually speakers stay in the rig longer than any other component.

Eg. Some folks don't like KEF house sound or Klipsch house sound.
No matter the specs and presentation, they will not appeal to some users.
So changing speakers because the amp can't drive them (or whatever) seems counter intuitive (at least to me).
The only reason logical reasons for changing speakers can be:
- user wants different sound signature
- speakers have room issues (room treatment is an option in some cases)

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[venkatcr]

1. I just did not understand this part "On the internal amp, on a scale of 1:12, the level will be set to somewhere in between 3-5".

In all AVRs, you can set the volume level of each speaker by pinging it. Using the sound calibration microphone, the AVR will ping each speaker individually, and set that speaker's level. In Marantz, the scale is 0-12. After Audessey is run, I have seen the level's being set between 3-5. That is roughly 40% of the amplifier capability. That is the example I had used. Your AVR may have a different scaling level.

The issue that all of us face is this. When driven individually, the AVR has enough grunt to power the speakers. At the same time, when you play a movie, you are sending sound to multiple speakers. This is where most AVR's fail.

-- > this applies to Subs also?

Yes. At first set the volume knob on the sub to 50%. Then set the sound level on the AVR to 80dB. Also remember to set your front speakers to small when you connect a sub.

3. When should the Amp be wired to connect Fronts? With step 2?

Yes, step 2 after you have completed the Audessey calibration.

4. To compare Stereo on AVR v/s AMP, should I be using "Direct" mode?

Yes, in both cases. On the AVR alone, and with the amp connected.

 

[fLUX]

You are right, Mr flux.. But, I feel its due to the speaker matching.


I dont believe so , I have observed the denon AVR to have similar characteristics with the Concept 20/Emit M20. Might be more of a Denon AVR characteristic for stereo music perspective. I would love to do a run around with different sets as fronts to validate the results by turning off audyssey. Will do it someday.

 

[ankitbhargava]

In all AVRs, you can set the volume level of each speaker by pinging it. Using the sound calibration microphone, the AVR will ping each speaker individually, and set that speaker's level. In Marantz, the scale is 0-12. After Audessey is run, I have seen the level's being set between 3-5. That is roughly 40% of the amplifier capability. That is the example I had used. Your AVR may have a different scaling level.

The issue that all of us face is this. When driven individually, the AVR has enough grunt to power the speakers. At the same time, when you play a movie, you are sending sound to multiple speakers. This is where most AVR's fail.

Got it, after Audessey is run .. for me the level are set +/- 1.5 from 0

If I have to run Audessey with existing setup itself, I thing this could be skipped because I already have Audessey XT32 done? I thought I will have to run Audessey after the Crown is plugged and Fronts are wired to it. Change my Speaker selection in Audessey to provision Fronts driven by PAs

Yes. At first set the volume knob on the sub to 50%. Then set the sound level on the AVR to 80dB. Also remember to set your front speakers to small when you connect a sub.

Yes those basics I understand

Yes, step 2 after you have completed the Audessey calibration.
Yes, in both cases. On the AVR alone, and with the amp connected.

ok

 

[venkatcr]

If I have to run Audessey with existing setup itself, I thing this could be skipped because I already have Audessey XT32 done? I thought I will have to run Audessey after the Crown is plugged and Fronts are wired to it. Change my Speaker selection in Audessey to provision Fronts driven by PAs.

The choice is yours. You can run Audessey any number of times. The general advise is to run it once every 3 months.

BTW, do not necessarily try to set the sub to 80dB. Set it to what is comfortable for your ears.

 

[edjamesx]

Mr James, i agree too much of power is bad. But, it's not too bad like powering the power hungry speakers with underpowered amps. With high power amplifier you have got two tools to save your speakers and your amplifiers. Volume knob and ears. It's in fact hard to kill a speaker or electronics by feeding too much power unless one badly wants to murder it. More power is always good.

Yes ,What i meant is , Overpowering too much can blow up speakers ,since wattage produce heats with magnets in the speakers.
Also underpowering can cause clipping which is very bad for speakers than overpowering speakers with safe volume levels.

I also disagree with you on changing speakers part. Changing the speakers would bring you a considerable difference to your table tonal wise, imaging wise, depth and sound stage wise if those speakers are properly set up.

Every speaker is so different that a KEF can never be a Klipsch nor you can't expect a Klipsch to be transparent as a KEF or Maggie.

Agree that every speaker have difference in tonal quality. But to get the best improvements you need to spend a lot with other speaker brands , and you need to go next high line /high end series of other brands. Using same series of speakers with any brand will have subtle notable differences and going with same series of speaker does not make sense as good upgrade . Also Going in highline speakers demand more power , which AVR cannot justify any day. Finally it's boiling down to the equipment upgrade.

What i am telling is ,Power Amp may not be very essential for first time users . When you want to upgrade your HT or music listening to next level Power Amp is one of the essential equipment to consider , where you will feel more difference in clarity and punch .

Once you hear your speakers with power amp , you wouldn't want to go back with direct AVR outs for sure.