Help with selecting the right Power Amplifier

[syednizamudeen]

Yeah Speaker sensitivity is 97 db , which is high standard. Your speakers are capable of handling max 500 watts . Though it can perform well with direct AVR output , Adding power Amp will definitely improve sound quality. 300 watts RMS would be more than sufficient for home to perform max speaker's potential,
I also noted Adding power Amp also drive speakers great with lowest frequency response settings from AVR , at 40 HZ, 60 HZ. The Speakers have great mids and highs with this settings. But with direct AVR settings , sound was little muddy with 40 hz to 60 hz. With Power Amp the mid bass is tight , and it don't loose highs at this freq response range. (with direct AVR it looses high end , and misses mid punch).

Thanks for sharing your observations.. But, 40 Hz and 60s are handled by the Subwoofers right?? Those shouldn't have any problem in reproducing those frequencies.

As you pointed out, the AVR might make the tweeters of the main speakers to shrill at high volumes when the speakers are pushed to higher limits. I have observed with AVR only configuration..

But, I usually don't listen at that levels for long...

 

[fLUX]

Thanks for sharing your observations.. But, 40 Hz and 60s are handled by the Subwoofers right?? Those shouldn't have any problem in reproducing those frequencies.

As you pointed out, the AVR might make the tweeters of the main speakers to shrill at high volumes when the speakers are pushed to higher limits. I have observed with AVR only configuration..

But, I usually don't listen at that levels for long...

With the AVR as the direct ouput for music i felt the following lacking
i) Vocals - Sound thinner than with the power amp
ii) Instrument details - Not as prominent as with a power amp
iii) Lack of bite in treble

Not to say the AVR sounded bad , but there was a clear cut noticeable difference even by turning audyssey off to remove any tuning. The difference was even more prominent when i skipped the AVR as a pre altogether but i had not level matched the volume exactly so cant be sure. The lows produced by my speaker pumped out much more air and were much tighter with the power amp (subwoofer was turned off and my crossover on the AVR is at 40hz for the fronts).

From a movies perspective i cant be sure since i have not watched a movie yet on this setup with current setup (in either modes). Had a small trial run of Aquaman & Bahubali (over Netflix) and experience was good but nothing specific to make note of yet. But for movies with good background score , music am certain it will make a positive difference

 

[RajithKumar]

Thanks for sharing your observations.. But, 40 Hz and 60s are handled by the Subwoofers right?? Those shouldn't have any problem in reproducing those frequencies.

As you pointed out, the AVR might make the tweeters of the main speakers to shrill at high volumes when the speakers are pushed to higher limits. I have observed with AVR only configuration..

But, I usually don't listen at that levels for long...

Hi , Eventhough 80hz crossover is THX standard , Sometimes ,we may need to manually tweak it to have better clarity ,in that case sometimes lowering crossover upto 60 hz is fine.
(What if ur sub response having a null at 70 to 80hz range).
So a good Poweramp really helps here.
IMO we should have good quality speakers first and then adding a really good PA bring out the real performance.
If not it will be like having an Maruti Alto Engine in a BMW car ( and vice versa) . Hope u understand my point .

 

[syednizamudeen]

With the AVR as the direct ouput for music i felt the following lacking
i) Vocals - Sound thinner than with the power amp
ii) Instrument details - Not as prominent as with a power amp
iii) Lack of bite in treble

Not to say the AVR sounded bad , but there was a clear cut noticeable difference even by turning audyssey off to remove any tuning. The difference was even more prominent when i skipped the AVR as a pre altogether but i had not level matched the volume exactly so cant be sure. The lows produced by my speaker pumped out much more air and were much tighter with the power amp (subwoofer was turned off and my crossover on the AVR is at 40hz for the fronts).

From a movies perspective i cant be sure since i have not watched a movie yet on this setup with current setup (in either modes). Had a small trial run of Aquaman & Bahubali (over Netflix) and experience was good but nothing specific to make note of yet. But for movies with good background score , music am certain it will make a positive difference

Yes... For critical music listening, it definitely should. In movies, things actually get insane for a brief moment and the lows will be handled pretty well by the subs.

But, For the speakers like @ankit owns, a descent AVR should do enough justice. A good amplifier with solid 300w should be a very costly improvement to reap small benefits.

If some one is so serious on music and tonality and have a musical speakers that are sensitive like 85db and drop their impedance to 4 ohm frequently, a costlier high quality amp will benefit very very much both for movies and music.

 

[syednizamudeen]

Hi , Eventhough 80hz crossover is THX standard , Sometimes ,we may need to manually tweak it to have better clarity ,in that case sometimes lowering crossover upto 60 hz is fine.
(What if ur sub response having a null at 70 to 80hz range).
So a good Poweramp really helps here.
IMO we should have good quality speakers first and then adding a really good PA bring out the real performance.
If not it will be like having an Maruti Alto Engine in a BMW car ( and vice versa) . Hope u understand my point .

I second you, Sir...

 

[edjamesx]

Thanks for sharing your observations.. But, 40 Hz and 60s are handled by the Subwoofers right?? Those shouldn't have any problem in reproducing those frequencies.

As you pointed out, the AVR might make the tweeters of the main speakers to shrill at high volumes when the speakers are pushed to higher limits. I have observed with AVR only configuration..

But, I usually don't listen at that levels for long...

That's true for Bookshelf or satellite speaker , but Floor standers are capable of handling frequency till 40hz even below depends on speaker designs. With 60hz i felt my Speakers sounded great - with good mids without loosing highs while driving with Power AMP.

Unfortunately , we are not using the full potential of FS speakers ,most of the time we reroute low frequencies to Sub always.

You may get audition of speakers with power amp , then you can feel the difference. My initial impression about PA was to make only louder.
After auditioning i felt day night difference. The clarity it pushes cannot be achieved with even high end AVR since they lack in power ratings.

 

[ankitbhargava]

Yeah Speaker sensitivity is 97 db , which is high standard. Your speakers are capable of handling max 500 watts . Though it can perform well with direct AVR output , Adding power Amp will definitely improve sound quality. 300 watts RMS would be more than sufficient for home to perform max speaker's potential,
I also noted Adding power Amp also drive speakers great with lowest frequency response settings from AVR , at 40 HZ, 60 HZ. The Speakers have great mids and highs with this settings. But with direct AVR settings , sound was little muddy with 40 hz to 60 hz. With Power Amp the mid bass is tight , and it don't loose highs at this freq response range. (with direct AVR it looses high end , and misses mid punch).

Thank you for that assurance
I ordered an XLS1502 to first try PA for front

I hope I get benefitted by PA route

 

[ankitbhargava]

I second you, Sir...

@syed, let my 1502 deliver and hooked... I will give you honest feedback if your own suggestion to go for Crown helped or not ) AND if your strong opinion about a moderately capable AVR v/s PA needs a review or not

 

[syednizamudeen]

@syed, let my 1502 deliver and hooked... I will give you honest feedback if your own suggestion to go for Crown helped or not ) AND if your strong opinion about a moderately capable AVR v/s PA needs a review or not

Yeah.. Let's see... There will be a bit of bias as you will put your hard earned money of the PA..

A double blind test with proper level matching will be the ultimate test.

There's no denying that a good amplifier brings the best out of a given speaker. But, how much better at what cost?? Is the question to be asked.

There are some cheaper speakers out there which really benefits from high quality, high power, expensive amplifiers like the Magnepans.. But, I feel most affordable and commonly known speakers benefit a very little to none from a quality PA in terms of SQ in Movies... But, as your goal is to get your system to be louder, there's no doubt you'll get that with XLS 1502..

Just sharing a snippet of Soundstage Hifi review of my new speakers that I'm going to buy something that has to do much with the Power Amplifier. NOTE : its a Critical STEREO Music review...;-)

Enjoy and post your personal experiences, My Friend... Eager to read your thoughts...

 

[DB1989]

@syed, let my 1502 deliver and hooked... I will give you honest feedback if your own suggestion to go for Crown helped or not ) AND if your strong opinion about a moderately capable AVR v/s PA needs a review or not

I see the crowns have caught traction with quite a few FMs! I'm very interested to hear about your initial listening experience. Do try the Crown without a sub to gauge what it does to your speakers when compared to driving them solely through your AVR (after Level matching).

If I may chip in with my two cents - other than the preouts of your AVR, do try out the crowns with a preamp or DAC. I've notice that the Crown really shines with a good source. And i'm not sure if burn in is an issue with digital amplification but i had to give it time for me to warm up to the sound; i hated it out of the box and was cursing myself for listening to andrew robinson (the youtuber).

 

[edjamesx]

There are some cheaper speakers out there which really benefits from high quality, high power, expensive amplifiers like the Magnepans.. But, I feel most affordable and commonly known speakers benefit a very little to none from a quality PA in terms of SQ in Movies... But, as your goal is to get your system to be louder, there's no doubt you'll get that with XLS 1502..

I dont think so , cheaper speakers will not be able to handle such power they will be blown away as you connect power Amp to them. With Every speaker manual they recommend to power the speaker with desired RMS watts , They always recommend to have maximum RMS watts or greater. AVRs in the market is not justifying feeding recommended power to them. Anything below recommended watts we are underpowering the speakers and limit its potential and there's chance of clipping which could damage speakers.

I agree good power AMPS are expensive , But it's a one time investment, and the one who's looking towards next level in their HT equipment they should consider adding power AMP. I dont think changing the speakers might give only minute difference unless you go for very high end speakers.
Highend speakers also will rock when feeding good power to them and they generally demand more power too.

Something applicable to AVR as well. I upgraded my onkyo AVR to Denon AVR , i do not find much difference with sound signature --except its little warmer.
After adding power AMP i felt much difference in clarity , great highs and mids.

 

[fLUX]

Yes... For critical music listening, it definitely should. In movies, things actually get insane for a brief moment and the lows will be handled pretty well by the subs.

But, For the speakers like @ankit owns, a descent AVR should do enough justice. A good amplifier with solid 300w should be a very costly improvement to reap small benefits.

If some one is so serious on music and tonality and have a musical speakers that are sensitive like 85db and drop their impedance to 4 ohm frequently, a costlier high quality amp will benefit very very much both for movies and music.

Yes agreed that for lows the subwoofer would take over, overall I think the expansion of dynamics might make an actual audible difference. But i agree to the point that it is a costly investment where you need to invest an amount almost as that much of the speakers in question most of the time if you are into critical listening for the improvements

Yeah.. Let's see... There will be a bit of bias as you will put your hard earned money of the PA..

A double blind test with proper level matching will be the ultimate test.

There's no denying that a good amplifier brings the best out of a given speaker. But, how much better at what cost?? Is the question to be asked.

There are some cheaper speakers out there which really benefits from high quality, high power, expensive amplifiers like the Magnepans.. But, I feel most affordable and commonly known speakers benefit a very little to none from a quality PA in terms of SQ in Movies... But, as your goal is to get your system to be louder, there's no doubt you'll get that with XLS 1502..

Just sharing a snippet of Soundstage Hifi review of my new speakers that I'm going to buy something that has to do much with the Power Amplifier. NOTE : its a Critical STEREO Music review...;-)

Enjoy and post your personal experiences, My Friend... Eager to read your thoughts...

I believe the comparisons here are between 2 power amps and an Integrated Amplifier, understandably the differences would be minimal as the IA under review also pumps a good amount of power.

On the multichannel receiver he mentions suspectedly for a high end AVR, so he has not tested the same and also I am not sure if anything below X6500H counts as a high end receiver in the EU/US region

 

[DB1989]

Yeah.. Let's see... There will be a bit of bias as you will put your hard earned money of the PA..

A double blind test with proper level matching will be the ultimate test.

There's no denying that a good amplifier brings the best out of a given speaker. But, how much better at what cost?? Is the question to be asked.

There are some cheaper speakers out there which really benefits from high quality, high power, expensive amplifiers like the Magnepans.. But, I feel most affordable and commonly known speakers benefit a very little to none from a quality PA in terms of SQ in Movies... But, as your goal is to get your system to be louder, there's no doubt you'll get that with XLS 1502..

Just sharing a snippet of Soundstage Hifi review of my new speakers that I'm going to buy something that has to do much with the Power Amplifier. NOTE : its a Critical STEREO Music review...;-)

Enjoy and post your personal experiences, My Friend... Eager to read your thoughts...

Dude, to theorize is fine. I get where you're coming from. Its rather fulfilling to shoot an arrow in the dark and have it land on the target. But do see if you can get some hands on experience. Which brings me to my next issue - its all well and good to follow reviews and reviewers and its a lot of fun. Its akin to experiencing gear vicariously through somebody else. Its good to be informed and there's plenty to lap up but don't take it as the gospel truth. I've been where you are at right now i.e. based on reviews and other stuff that i'd read up, i thought i had a pretty good handle on things. I'm possibly subscribed to every single hifi reviewer on youtube (even the obscure ones) plus Whathifi magazine - both UK and India, Stereophile, Hi-Fi Choice, Hi Fi News, Sound & Vision, Home Cinema Choice, AV Max (now defunct but i still enjoy flipping through its pages) and a lot of other websites that review audio gear.

You'll find opinions on both sides of an issue. Plus, not all reviewers are neutral and in fact, while in conversation with a very popular youtuber the other day, he cast some significant aspersions on some of them. I suppose the same applies to magazines as well.

But most importantly, not all ears are built equal. Some people i know are far more sensitive to the nuances in sound than me and are better capable of defining the effect of each equipment in my chain. In fact, whenever i'm auditioning gear, whether at home or at the store, i take along a friend or two as far as possible to confirm whether what i believe i'm hearing is in fact what i'm hearing. My point is, every person's mileage may vary which includes reviewers as well. For some people who are not blessed with the ears of a fox, even music driven through an AVR. In fact, I've seen people who are supremely satisfied with their JBL flip 3s and who see absolutely no point in getting themselves even a half decent stereo.

Which brings me to an anecdote - During this pandemic, we've regularly been doing Sunday brunch at this friend's place who happens to have a JBL Flip 3. During one such brunch, i'd toted along the combination of my Ipad+Chord Mojo+Crown XLS 1502+Bostons Acoustics A26. It sounded phenomenal in his space (the acoustics in his living room were simply outstanding, something that is not the case with mine) and most people were blown away. I say 'most' because when i tried suggesting to this friend that he should get a stereo as well, he simply stated that he saw no requirement for the same as he did not prefer listening to his music loud. For him, the only difference in sound that my setup made was play the music louder. The entire gamut of attributes such as details, dynamics, stereo imaging, soundstage, transients etc. that the abovesaid setup brought to the table were lost on him. At that moment, was i supposed to tell him that he had the ears of a peasant?

It was a hard lesson for me that not everyone perceives sound in the same way and/or are adept at picking up and appreciating their nuances.

 

[raghupb]

I feel there's a lot of stuff being thrown around here on this thread.
In short, this is what I feel:
- if you have an AVR that's in the 50-70Wpc and it has at least 2 channel preouts, a simple PA like crown will add value
- if you have an AVR that's newer and in the 100-110Wpc and efficient speakers, adding a PA may be a hit or miss
- newer AVRs also have something called 70% guarantee; it should mean something
- if the AVR has multichannel preouts and one can afford and more importantly host PAs, it is worth a try (borrow first if possible)
- don't look at movies as only thump/whack/rumble; even action flicks have good enjoyable background scores
- so it is important that the overall experience be good musically too

My use case:
The AVR I have at home is a baby Marantz; it can barely do anything impactful sound wise.
As a basic AVR, it works in basic config. To get more out of the setup I needed outboard amps.
But please note, I already had the power amps when I decided to buy the AVR.
Currently, I have Monitor Audio Radius 45 (I call them pups) doing HT fronts.
These can easily be driven by the Marantz, but due to how my rig is wired and used, they are connected to a Parasound amp.

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[Prodigy]

I feel there's a lot of stuff being thrown around here on this thread.
In short, this is what I feel:
- if you have an AVR that's in the 50-70Wpc and it has at least 2 channel preouts, a simple PA like crown will add value
- if you have an AVR that's newer and in the 100-110Wpc and efficient speakers, adding a PA may be a hit or miss
- newer AVRs also have something called 70% guarantee; it should mean something
- if the AVR has multichannel preouts and one can afford and more importantly host PAs, it is worth a try (borrow first if possible)
- don't look at movies as only thump/whack/rumble; even action flicks have good enjoyable background scores
- so it is important that the overall experience be good musically too

My use case:
The AVR I have at home is a baby Marantz; it can barely do anything impactful sound wise.
As a basic AVR, it works in basic config. To get more out of the setup I needed outboard amps.
But please note, I already had the power amps when I decided to buy the AVR.
Currently, I have Monitor Audio Radius 45 (I call them pups) doing HT fronts.
These can easily be driven by the Marantz, but due to how my rig is wired and used, they are connected to a Parasound amp.

Cheers,
Raghu

Very True. I completely agree.

 

[DB1989]

With speakers like these and with a room like yours, I wouldn't bother to get a PA for movies for my ears...

Correct me if i'm wrong but have your ears experienced a PA?

 

[fLUX]

I feel there's a lot of stuff being thrown around here on this thread.
In short, this is what I feel:
- if you have an AVR that's in the 50-70Wpc and it has at least 2 channel preouts, a simple PA like crown will add value
- if you have an AVR that's newer and in the 100-110Wpc and efficient speakers, adding a PA may be a hit or miss
- newer AVRs also have something called 70% guarantee; it should mean something.


- if the AVR has multichannel preouts and one can afford and more importantly host PAs, it is worth a try (borrow first if possible)
- don't look at movies as only thump/whack/rumble; even action flicks have good enjoyable background scores
- so it is important that the overall experience be good musically too

My use case:
The AVR I have at home is a baby Marantz; it can barely do anything impactful sound wise.
As a basic AVR, it works in basic config. To get more out of the setup I needed outboard amps.
But please note, I already had the power amps when I decided to buy the AVR.
Currently, I have Monitor Audio Radius 45 (I call them pups) doing HT fronts.
These can easily be driven by the Marantz, but due to how my rig is wired and used, they are connected to a Parasound amp.

Cheers,
Raghu

To add to your point Raghu , depsite owning an AVR with decent amount or power at 2 channel @ 8 ohms , the crown performs noticeably better than the AVR for music in my case. I am very excited to try out a Class AB power amp to see what it further brings to the table.

Also we have IndiqAudio providing 2 weeks no question asked full refund for their Saptak Mononlock poweramps. For people really interested in investing in a PA but are worried about their effectiveness this is a perfect platform since if they feel that it has not added any value they dont lose any money either.

 

[DB1989]

To add to your point Raghu , depsite owning an AVR with decent amount or power at 2 channel @ 8 ohms , the crown performs noticeably better than the AVR for music in my case. I am very excited to try out a Class AB power amp to see what it further brings to the table.

Also we have IndiqAudio providing 2 weeks no question asked full refund for their Saptak Mononlock poweramps. For people really interested in investing in a PA but are worried about their effectiveness this is a perfect platform since if they feel that it has not added any value they dont lose any money either.

That's incredible. I'm glad Indian manufacturers are taking a cue from their foreign counterparts. Considering the lack of exposure, i believe this will be critical for establishing their brand.

 

[raghupb]

To add to your point Raghu , depsite owning an AVR with decent amount or power at 2 channel @ 8 ohms , the crown performs noticeably better than the AVR for music in my case. I am very excited to try out a Class AB power amp to see what it further brings to the table.
<snip>

I've heard the Crown you picked up at FM @anirudhchandrashekar's place.
Oh, it does pack a punch in HT duty, on the towers in that rig.
It is not bad for music either. Bass control is really, really good.

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[fLUX]

That's incredible. I'm glad Indian manufacturers are taking a cue from their foreign counterparts. Considering the lack of exposure, i believe this will be critical for establishing their brand.

They are doing much more than that as per the discussion I have had, most likely to jump the gun on this. Just had a word with them and their warranty coverage terms are also very impressive. 3 years of standard warranty covering almost everything other than act of god/spillage , upgrade at cost of delta over purchase price for any upgrades to newer versions of their power amplifier and option to extend warranty by another 2 years after the initial 3 years time period.