Sorry for being unclear. I meant loop the digital out from the Esoteric into the Digital in of the amp. However if there is no digital output or pass through then my question is a non-starter. Sorry.
A new beginning
- Thread starter ajay124
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Sorry for being unclear. I meant loop the digital out from the Esoteric into the Digital in of the amp. However if there is no digital output or pass through then my question is a non-starter. Sorry.
Gerry_the_Merry
Well-Known Member
Staxxx, what you say is perfectly possible, these machines are versatile, but only unbalanced digital I think. This does not have aes ebu. So as Prem says, digital connection plus clock sync is the best solution, though not balanced. Finally of course it will depend on the sound.
ajay124
Well-Known Member
"On the AI-10s rear panel are one optical and one coaxial digital input for a DAC section that accepts resolutions of up to 24-bit/192kHz. This takes the incoming PCM digital bitstream and generates pulse-width modulation (PWM) signals using a Texas Instruments TAS5076 chip. These signals are used to directly drive the power-amplifier stage. Therefore, the AI-10 can drive speakers from a CD transport without the use of an external DAC. In addition, the AI-10 converts all incoming analog signals to digital before they reach the amplification stage. This is done by an AKM 5385B, a 24-bit/192kHz, two-channel A/D converter chip. Once signal conversion is complete, it undergoes the same PWM processing described above."
I confess that I feel a little lost when I try to comprehend all this processing wizardry. What I can make out is:
If I use single ended or balanced RCA's then the analog signal from the SA-10 will be reconverted to digital by the AKM 24 bit adc of the AI-10. This digital signal would then be converted to pulse width modulation signals by the Texas Instrument TAS 5076 chip. If I opt for an optical or coaxial digital interconnect then this reconversion would not be required as the digital signal would simply be converted by the Texas Instrument chip and passed on for amplification. Currently the digital to analog conversion is being done by the dual mono 24-bit/192kHz Cirrus Logic CS4398 dac chips of the SA-10 cdp.
I confess that I feel a little lost when I try to comprehend all this processing wizardry. What I can make out is:
If I use single ended or balanced RCA's then the analog signal from the SA-10 will be reconverted to digital by the AKM 24 bit adc of the AI-10. This digital signal would then be converted to pulse width modulation signals by the Texas Instrument TAS 5076 chip. If I opt for an optical or coaxial digital interconnect then this reconversion would not be required as the digital signal would simply be converted by the Texas Instrument chip and passed on for amplification. Currently the digital to analog conversion is being done by the dual mono 24-bit/192kHz Cirrus Logic CS4398 dac chips of the SA-10 cdp.
Gerry_the_Merry
Well-Known Member
This is exactly correct. Digital connection will mean DAC of AI-10 amplifier will be used, without multiple conversions.
ajay124
Well-Known Member
giri, prem
The moment I connect AI-10 with SA-10 the amp will become lord and master and the cdp its slave. The SA-10 will become merely a transport as its dac section will no longer have an impact on the final analog signal being passed on to the amplification stage. In such a scenario I would prefer to take the shortest and most direct route. Pass the digital signal from the cdp to the amp using an optical digital interconnect and word sync the two with a BNC coaxial cable. Using analog interconnects would merely add an unnecessary dac conversion in the SA-10 and an equally unnecessary adc conversion in the AI-10.
The moment I connect AI-10 with SA-10 the amp will become lord and master and the cdp its slave. The SA-10 will become merely a transport as its dac section will no longer have an impact on the final analog signal being passed on to the amplification stage. In such a scenario I would prefer to take the shortest and most direct route. Pass the digital signal from the cdp to the amp using an optical digital interconnect and word sync the two with a BNC coaxial cable. Using analog interconnects would merely add an unnecessary dac conversion in the SA-10 and an equally unnecessary adc conversion in the AI-10.
Gerry_the_Merry
Well-Known Member
Precisely correct. Hence the next question is whether you are sacrificing a superior DAC within the SA-10. If AI-10 has an equally good DAC, fine, else if SA-10 is the better DAC, then go for a different amp and do balanced analog connection, would be my suggestion.
On the matter of which the better DAC is, Prem's suggestion of writing to Esoteric is the right approach.
On the matter of which the better DAC is, Prem's suggestion of writing to Esoteric is the right approach.
ajay124
Well-Known Member
giri
I will get in touch with Esoteric. But I would assume that since they released SA-10 and AI-10 as a pair. they would obviously ensure that performance is enhanced when you use them as a pair.
Excerpts from the Dagogo review:
"Instead, Esoteric devised a PWM (Pulse width modulation) scheme for the AI-10 based on Texas Instruments new TAS5076 integrated circuit, which not only features an excellent error correction algorithm for signal processing, but also facilitates the capacity of higher amplification output. According to the TI whitepaper, the TAS5076 is a 3.3-volt, high-output 24-bit digital pulse width modulator with built-in overcurrent and over temperature protection for use with MOSFETs, thus suitable for driving loudspeakers directly.
After the incoming digital signal is processed by the PWM architecture, it is then prepared by the master clock for output in a 1ppm- (one part per million) accuracy synchronization mode at the Esoteric-original Universal Clock sampling frequency of 100kHz. When synchronized to the AI-10s master clock, compatible disc players, such as Esoterics own SA-10 SACD player, will supposedly improve in performance level. The same master clock also creates CD-compatible Word Clock Output Frequencies of 44.1, 88.2, 176.4kHz, as well as those at 48, 96 and 192kHz, which are DVD settings for the companys own multi-format video players, namely the P-03 Universal, the UX-1Pi, the UX-3Pi and DV60.
In addition to the PWM and master clock treatment of incoming digital signals, the Esoteric also converts all incoming analog signals into digital by way of the AKM (Asahi Kasei) 5385B 2-channel A/D converter, which operates at a 24-bit, 192kHz sampling rate with a 114dB dynamic range. The converted analog signal, now in the digital domain, is then processed by the same PWM and master clock architecture again.
Esoteric fitted this PWM device with the IRF 6665 MOSFETs by International Rectifier (IR). According to Kazutaka Tsuda, Esoterics Manager of Oversea Sales, this IRF 6665 MOSFET features compact dimensions and is capable of fast heat radiation, thus negating the need for a heat sink. In addition, the IRF 6665s compact body also allows for direct soldering onto the PCB (Direct FET), which eliminates the noise leakage problem prevalent in designs with long lead from MOSFETs. Most excitingly, Esoteric adopted the zero negative-feedback topology for optimum sound quality."
"The resultant exceptional speed of the Direct FET design is complemented by two 18,000 F capacitors per channel, fed by a large, 205 VA toroidal transformer, producing a maximum output of 150 watts per channel into 8 ohms.
One of the more intriguing functionalities of the AI-10 is the i_RC or i.LINK remote control function. The i.LINK function, also known as the IEEE 1394 computer standard, is desirable for facilitating digital transfer of SACD multi-channel signals, pending future hardware upgrade on the AI-10. Also requiring hardware upgrade, the i_RC or i.LINK remote control function, on the other hand, works in sync with the AI-10s CH (Channel) mode that allows multiple AI-10s to be operationally united by one leading AI-10 in a multi-channel system. In such a system, all AI-10s driving their respective channels will respond in unison to the leading units change in volume, muting and dimmer level.
Most considerately, Esoteric offers its AI-10 owners a function called SVOL the option of customizing the starting volume upon unit turn-on. If the next time you turn on your Ai-10, you would like to avoid being startled by the last volume setting that you left it with, the AI-10 offers the comfort of customizing a turn-on volume, from ? to -20dB.
Rounding up the thoughtful niceties on the AI-10 are the pair of WBT nextgen speaker terminals and an RCA INPUT 4 that is switchable between Line and Phono MM.
Hence, by virtue of the aforementioned engineering architecture, the Esoteric AI-10 has four layers of functionality. First and foremost, it is a high-efficiency, class-D power amplifier with a continuous output of 110Wpc/8? and 150Wpc/4?, while outputting 150Wpc/8? at maximum, and 200Wpc into a 4? load. The AI-10 is also a companion Master Clock Sync Generator device for its SA-10 SACD player, increasing the SACD players performance level by synchronizing operations of both units with its own high-accuracy master clock generator.
Then, the AI-10 is also an upsampling DAC/ADC, offering to upsample all signal, digital and analog alike in origin, to your choice of 44.1, 88.2, or 176.4kHz for its eventual, analog outputting. Lastly, in a multi-channel or home theatre environment, a AI-10 can be added as needed to drive the surround-sound speakers. In accordance, the display on each AI-10 can be set to show either L (Left), C (Center), R (Right), LS (Left Surround), RS (Right Surround) or LFE (subwoofer)."
I will get in touch with Esoteric. But I would assume that since they released SA-10 and AI-10 as a pair. they would obviously ensure that performance is enhanced when you use them as a pair.
Excerpts from the Dagogo review:
"Instead, Esoteric devised a PWM (Pulse width modulation) scheme for the AI-10 based on Texas Instruments new TAS5076 integrated circuit, which not only features an excellent error correction algorithm for signal processing, but also facilitates the capacity of higher amplification output. According to the TI whitepaper, the TAS5076 is a 3.3-volt, high-output 24-bit digital pulse width modulator with built-in overcurrent and over temperature protection for use with MOSFETs, thus suitable for driving loudspeakers directly.
After the incoming digital signal is processed by the PWM architecture, it is then prepared by the master clock for output in a 1ppm- (one part per million) accuracy synchronization mode at the Esoteric-original Universal Clock sampling frequency of 100kHz. When synchronized to the AI-10s master clock, compatible disc players, such as Esoterics own SA-10 SACD player, will supposedly improve in performance level. The same master clock also creates CD-compatible Word Clock Output Frequencies of 44.1, 88.2, 176.4kHz, as well as those at 48, 96 and 192kHz, which are DVD settings for the companys own multi-format video players, namely the P-03 Universal, the UX-1Pi, the UX-3Pi and DV60.
In addition to the PWM and master clock treatment of incoming digital signals, the Esoteric also converts all incoming analog signals into digital by way of the AKM (Asahi Kasei) 5385B 2-channel A/D converter, which operates at a 24-bit, 192kHz sampling rate with a 114dB dynamic range. The converted analog signal, now in the digital domain, is then processed by the same PWM and master clock architecture again.
Esoteric fitted this PWM device with the IRF 6665 MOSFETs by International Rectifier (IR). According to Kazutaka Tsuda, Esoterics Manager of Oversea Sales, this IRF 6665 MOSFET features compact dimensions and is capable of fast heat radiation, thus negating the need for a heat sink. In addition, the IRF 6665s compact body also allows for direct soldering onto the PCB (Direct FET), which eliminates the noise leakage problem prevalent in designs with long lead from MOSFETs. Most excitingly, Esoteric adopted the zero negative-feedback topology for optimum sound quality."
"The resultant exceptional speed of the Direct FET design is complemented by two 18,000 F capacitors per channel, fed by a large, 205 VA toroidal transformer, producing a maximum output of 150 watts per channel into 8 ohms.
One of the more intriguing functionalities of the AI-10 is the i_RC or i.LINK remote control function. The i.LINK function, also known as the IEEE 1394 computer standard, is desirable for facilitating digital transfer of SACD multi-channel signals, pending future hardware upgrade on the AI-10. Also requiring hardware upgrade, the i_RC or i.LINK remote control function, on the other hand, works in sync with the AI-10s CH (Channel) mode that allows multiple AI-10s to be operationally united by one leading AI-10 in a multi-channel system. In such a system, all AI-10s driving their respective channels will respond in unison to the leading units change in volume, muting and dimmer level.
Most considerately, Esoteric offers its AI-10 owners a function called SVOL the option of customizing the starting volume upon unit turn-on. If the next time you turn on your Ai-10, you would like to avoid being startled by the last volume setting that you left it with, the AI-10 offers the comfort of customizing a turn-on volume, from ? to -20dB.
Rounding up the thoughtful niceties on the AI-10 are the pair of WBT nextgen speaker terminals and an RCA INPUT 4 that is switchable between Line and Phono MM.
Hence, by virtue of the aforementioned engineering architecture, the Esoteric AI-10 has four layers of functionality. First and foremost, it is a high-efficiency, class-D power amplifier with a continuous output of 110Wpc/8? and 150Wpc/4?, while outputting 150Wpc/8? at maximum, and 200Wpc into a 4? load. The AI-10 is also a companion Master Clock Sync Generator device for its SA-10 SACD player, increasing the SACD players performance level by synchronizing operations of both units with its own high-accuracy master clock generator.
Then, the AI-10 is also an upsampling DAC/ADC, offering to upsample all signal, digital and analog alike in origin, to your choice of 44.1, 88.2, or 176.4kHz for its eventual, analog outputting. Lastly, in a multi-channel or home theatre environment, a AI-10 can be added as needed to drive the surround-sound speakers. In accordance, the display on each AI-10 can be set to show either L (Left), C (Center), R (Right), LS (Left Surround), RS (Right Surround) or LFE (subwoofer)."
Gerry_the_Merry
Well-Known Member
This makes it clear that the AI-10 was meant to be used as the master and DAC and in combination with it, the SA-10 as transport.
Ajay, I am not sure if using an optical cable is a good idea and if you must it better be a Glass cable and not many folks make it that way these days. you will need to think carefully of a good digital interconnect here as it does influence the sound significantly.
tirthankar
Active Member
For good digital cables, XLO is a good starting point.
Gerry_the_Merry
Well-Known Member
The Accuphase E-250 uses a 400VA transformer. You have power hungry speakers. Perhaps a balanced analog from a SA-10 to Accuphase will pose a strong challenge to the all digital solution with AI-10.
ajay124
Well-Known Member
manav, giri
Quite possible. My amplification horizon basically dosen't stretch further than a used Bryston, Accuphase, Esoteric, Luxman or McIntosh. The Jeff Rowland, Pass Labs or Krell which I like seem to be too overpriced..
Quite possible. My amplification horizon basically dosen't stretch further than a used Bryston, Accuphase, Esoteric, Luxman or McIntosh. The Jeff Rowland, Pass Labs or Krell which I like seem to be too overpriced..
Ajay,
I had priced out a Pass labs X150.5 or xa 30.5/ 240v version from an authorized Pass dealer in nevada. He offered a delivered price of $5500 for either (which incidentally is the US MSRP). Of-course customs would be our lookout. Let me know if you want to communicate with him and I will pm you contact details.
Cheers,
Sid
longshanks
Well-Known Member
I think X150.5 will be better suited for speakers like Dynaudio than XA 30.5,having said that i have also read that XA 30.5 can drive many demanding speakers really well.
sorry, I didnt follow the entire thread but the E-250 power supply section seems quite poor for a 4 ohm/challenging load. If power/drivability is a consideration, this particular model wont cut it. Out of curiosity, I looked at the E-350, and surprisingly that doesnt look that great on paper either. The 460 on the other hand is much better spec'd on paper. Anyway, take these numbers for what they are meant to be and nothing more - just specs.
cheers
ajay124
Well-Known Member
sidvee
5500$ + additional expenditure would not be within my budget. I have already bought (but not as yet received) the Esoteric AI-10 amp. Bryston BP6+4B SST+Focus 110 seems to be a match made in heaven. I couldn't ask for anything more at the moment. Lets see whether I finally retain the Bryston combo or the Esoteric AI-10.
5500$ + additional expenditure would not be within my budget. I have already bought (but not as yet received) the Esoteric AI-10 amp. Bryston BP6+4B SST+Focus 110 seems to be a match made in heaven. I couldn't ask for anything more at the moment. Lets see whether I finally retain the Bryston combo or the Esoteric AI-10.
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