Advantages of Music PC or HTPC over Laptops

[dheerajin]

Dear All,

I have seen people discussing music PC in the forum and they specially discuss the cabinet and other component of the same.
As far as my reading goes on the net, a dedicated simple - lowest configuration is enough for audiophile music listening. Even if you build a dedicated PC with good components, it is hardly going to make the difference in SQ,in extent to 0.1%.

I have seen people are using atom based diskless, small laptops for music listening and it is connected to system(amp+speakers) worth 8-9 lacs of rupees.

My question is now, why people are so keen on making music PC , when it is headless. IMO the rest of the amount after using old laptop or atom based laptops, can be used for DAC+AMP+Music Purchase.
Please give your views on this and correct me if i am wrong.

Cheers

Dheeraj

 

[venkatcr]

Let me explain, or at least try to. When you move digital data, they are discreet elements that can be verified for correctness. Once you convert audio from digital data to analog signal, it is a continuous stream of sound that cannot be corrected. Thus we believe that right from the time that data is picked up from the HD to the time it leaves the DAC and goes to your amplifier, it should have the least amount of interference that can create errors in the data stream. In music we call this jitter. Any errors on the way at any stage will enhance the jitter and distort the sound.

That is why we look for advanced systems where everything works perfectly. You can use a laptop using something like a Dragonfly, but it will never match a dedicated PC that has a sound card that picks up the data from as close to the HD as possible. Dedicated PCs usually have no software running other the minimal OS, and a software to play the music. A laptop is very crowded and there is a number of online applications that could distort the sound. In a dedicated PC, we usually have no online applications that load during boot time. We give as much leeway to the music playing software in terms of RAM and other resources. We don't allow any other application to load needlessly and hog any resource. We also install a hefty power unit, so that there is no dearth of power for all the hardware resources. Of course, we clean the power outside before feeding it to the PC.

Ultimately it all depends on your passion. I listen to music on my laptop, my car, and my dedicated Music PC. The last beats the other two in clarity and enjoyment.

Cheers

 

[shafic]

Venkat, Nice explanation:clapping:.

Can you share what configuration you are using in your current music PC? pls.

regds,
shafic

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

This Audio PC business, dedicated or not, is all ifs, buts and maybes.

Jitter is a very specific kind of problem that is to do with synchronisation and timing: it is nothing to do with external interference (but you could cause it, for instance, by bending an optical cable)

Other running applications mostly have no effect whatsoever on audio (but sometimes they do: applications associated with devices that take a higher priority can have a disastrous effect on audio)

There are various ways of getting the music, in analogue or digital form, out of the computer Assuming them to be of equal quality, there is no particular advantage to something stuck inside a PCI[e] slot over something stuck in (or attached to) a USB port (but there might be on particular machine, with a particular configuration, one might work better than the other, even to the point where one might be actually bad).

There is no problem in moving your data around in your PC. It does not matter how far. (And I can't think of a "but" for that one, but hey, there might be!). Your machine is like a big water pipe with smaller pipes leading off it. Some are called PCI, some are called USB, etc.

So what is the advantage of a dedicated music PC? It can be made small, it can be made silent, it can be made with much lower power than general machine, it can be put in a neat case that looks good on the hifi rack. It can be given a UV remote control, or it can be operated from a smart phone; to some people, it matters that they can pretend it isn't a computer. It might not sound any better --- but it might.

 

[shibashis]

My knowledge in this matter (indeed in all matters...) is fairly limited, but if 'clean' power is of much concern here then should not a laptop fair well in that term? You have to spend quite a hefty amount to get a good power supply for your desktop, but a laptop running on battery or through its power adapter should receive better 'quality' power?
Looking forward to your insights.

 

[hydra]

dheerajin, one big advantage of a dedicated Music PC is that it can be built with just that purpose in mind, and compromises can be made on every other functionality, in order to get better results from using it for this single purpose.

So, we use a cabinet that will cool the PC passively without a fan, a motherboard and processor combo that is just powerful enough to do the job, a power supply that is silent, and puts out clean power (just enough to do the job, ideally), etc, etc.

As far as the cabinet goes, a solid cabinet is also resonance free (especially when you use fans, and/or multiple spinning discs). It also needs to look good!

Used right, a dedicated music pc can also skip an Antivirus software, so there is even lesser load on the (already low power) processor, and so there are lesser services running.

I've not yet come across a laptop that does a better job that a similarly specced dedicated Music PC does. I don't say this as though I'm the expert on the subject. I'm saying this just as a guy who's had the opportunity to hear a few computers that play music.

I also have a laptop and a dedicated music pc that run nearly identical hardware. Both run an AMD E350 APU, the same make (and capacity) SSD for the OS. The laptop has 8GB RAM while the Music PC has 4GB RAM. The Laptop runs Windows 7 ultimate 64bit while the Music PC runs Windows 7 basic 32 bit. I also have the same media player (JRMC) on both. Comparing both (the laptop giving digital out via an iFi iLink and the Music PC giving digital out via a Xonar STX), the Music PC sounds superior. (The music pc also sounds better than it's normal self with the iFi iLink, but that's another story). The Laptop has minimum software on it (Office suite, VLC, JRMC, 3 browsers, Antivirus). The music has just JRMC installed (and no Antivirus). Why does the Music PC sound better than the laptop? I don't know. But I can understand that it is better, even it it's just a little bit better. That's good enough for me.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

From another thread...

Possibly one of the best reasons for a music-only PC. The lack of distraction!

It is not just the CD or cassette which is dying out. The music lover who sits quietly and listens to music is dying out faster than all of these. The feeling that I am a blooming dinosaur hurts much more than the fact that I have a dead ZX-9 and cannot listen to any of my cassettes. :sad:

Enjoy being a music-loving dinosaur.

The internet, or something else on the computer, often puts the music in the background for me. I know it shouldn't be that way.

 

[matbhuvi]

From another thread...

Possibly one of the best reasons for a music-only PC. The lack of distraction!

Hah..how true..I am browsing Hifivision when listening to music

 

[Falcon21]

purely sound wise it depends on the mobo on-board audio support...these days they are pretty good
if you connect using optical spdif it won't matter how good the sound card/on-board is
if you connect analog using sound card it can sound very good

a better thing to do would be to get PC audio out via spdif cable and feed into avr/stereo or dac audio input and then feed into avr/stereo
it'll give you some really interesting sound output result

 

[dheerajin]

Thanks guys for your views..
I agree to some extent with all the views shared

Let me rephrase my question,

Dedicated laptop

Laptop is having windows7 or 8, without any software except foobar and without any external antivirus.(MS-defender is enough).
Atom based with internet disabled.

Dedicated Music PC

with stealth and anti ballistic missile technology..whatever

Now my question is-which system will give the highest return on investment in terms of sound quotient when you have limited budget for entire setup-(source+dac+amp+speaker+room treatment+misc).
Cheaper the soundcard or DAC,more will be the Jitter(noise). So it is not wise to invest in good DAC, rather than spending money on stealth(cabinate+motherborad+blah blah).
if you take cost of atom based laptop, which comes around 15K and...with limited budget, you can spend the remaining amount in DAC+amp+speaker.
If budget is not constraint then, sky is the limit.

If noise or jitter is the deciding factor between laptop and music PC , then building music PC is worth the investment, I seriously have doubt...

Cheers

Dheeraj

 

[ranjeetrain]

There are a lot of angles to this question. Let's put some of the main considerations into perspective.

(1) Sheer computing power - A desktop has more real estate. It is designed for and is capable of a lot more of everything. Theoretically, a laptop can be made to run as fast as a desktop. This is another matter that due to heat generated processors start lagging. Desktop computers have much better cooling ability so they can run at much higher frequencies for a prolonged duration. In other words, they can generate much higher real computing horse power without breaking a sweat. Something if a laptop is made to do, it will start panting badly.

This gain in performance is usually very small. But in a very revealing system the differences can be heard easily. A well put together desktop system (the key phrase is "Well put together") will usually have lower latency compared to laptop. And for many people even if there is a 0.5% of improvement it might be worth the trouble and investment.

(2) Storage - If we disregard external storage media (none of which can match the performance of a SATA HDD hooked directly to the mobo), a laptop can only have one HDD. Hence it has a relatively limited amount of storage space. A desktop can have a full stack of HDDs, all wired directly to the mobo. Comparatively, you can gain much bigger storage space for your entire music collection in full-fidelity and have the fastest way yet to access them.

(3) Operating environment - Some people believe a computer's chassis is an EMI hell. Even more so in case of a laptop. There are billions of electrical devices cramped inside a laptop's stupidly small cabinetry. Each of them emits EMI, however small. Debates can go on and on whether or not they matter, whether or not they can be heard in the final sound. Since I have never been able to hear any effects of EMI so personally for me this is non-issue. However, many people would swear that it makes a difference in their system.

(4) Operational noise - Computer processors heat as they run and need to be cooled. A typical laptop has so little space to breathe that under normal conditions their cooling mechanism must keep working. In the process a very low decibel noise is generated. How significant is that depends on the system. Some systems are so dead quite and have such pitch black background while playing back that even the mild noise generated by laptop fans sounds piercing to the ear. A desktop with passive cooling doesn't suffer with this problem.

(5) Peripherals - Traditionally desktops were cheaper, laptops were expensive. Though such a difference doesn't exist anymore, peripherals for laptops are still somewhat expensive, comparatively. Sound cards for example. Besides, it's not as easy changing peripherals in a laptop as it is in desktop. Most people can't even open a laptop, but many people can easily open a mobo and add/change extension cards. This makes a desktop a better choice for end-users who would like to try out different sound cards.

(6) Look and feel - Music only Desktop computers can be put in cabinets made for audiophiles. Cabinets that resemble a CD player and look great kept in an equipment rack.

The above are in justification of why use a custom made desktop for music playback. Of course there are equally compelling reasons for why use a laptop for music playback.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

I don't think the electrical noise inside a PC case is a matter of belief, but a matter of physical fact. Whether it matters or not is probably also a matter of engineering fact, but some people like to form opinions on these things and turn them into belief. The truth of it, again, probably comes with ifs, buts and maybes ...or it depends: it depends on the equipment and combination. Don't all electronics produce such radiation? Including CD players, amplifiers... I suppose that a good designer must take that into account just as a good designer would have taken it into account in the making of a sound card.

There is some interesting information on noise and PCs on this Hydrogenaudio thread. I started it because I wanted to add a more objective viewpoint to the combination of my modest (but fairly long) experience, combined with the more "audiophile" viewpoints of most of my music-listening friends.

The above are in justification of why use a custom made desktop for music playback. Of course there are equally compelling reasons for why use a laptop for music playback.

Are there? Let me go outside the field of audio on this: In my humble () opinion there is no compelling reason to use a laptop for any computing task unless portability is a requirement. Portability is what they were made for, and what their designs are compromised for.

Somehow, people prefer the look: that's all. With the hifi-looking cases available now, that is no argument for a laptop as a dedicated sound box.

This gain in performance is usually very small. But in a very revealing system the differences can be heard easily. A well put together desktop system (the key phrase is "Well put together") will usually have lower latency compared to laptop. And for many people even if there is a 0.5% of improvement it might be worth the trouble and investment.

Performance is really not an issue. As mentioned, I wish I had my old Pentium box still, because it was the most trouble/hassle free of the four or five machines I have used for audio. I usually fix my 3.2GHz CPU to 2.1GHz for music listening. I should experiment with 0.8GHz. I think this may suit if I am not using DSP such as EQ, but might not when I do.

Latency is never a problem. I don't think anybody will believe this! But why should it be? It is the music-making people who have good reason to strive for lower latency, not the music listening people. (I'll post a bit more about this later... but I have to go out now)

 

[hydra]

... Of course there are equally compelling reasons for why use a laptop for music playback.

Are there? Let me go outside the field of audio on this: In my humble () opinion there is no compelling reason to use a laptop for any computing task unless portability is a requirement. Portability is what they were made for, and what their designs are compromised for.

Thad, I can think of one reason: A screen comes free

Frankly, I hate laptops too, and avoid them like the plague (in the context of personal purchases, that is). The one laptop I keep is an el cheapo one that I can't but avoid using while travelling. In nearly all cases, they can't be DIY repaired (except for HDD and RAM), they ALWAYS have optical drives that fail at the drop of a hat, and they are generally far more expensive to repair. We can build a desktop to our exact needs, open it up as often as we want and change nearly any part that isn't soldered down to our heart's content! In my experience, desktops are also generally far less prone to repair-needing faults: Probably has to do with the miniaturization and the constant heat in the laptops.

 

[dheerajin]

Ok...agreed..in case of laptop for audio with many software installed for daily normal use..
dedicated music PC has advantages in terms of user customization,disk space and lot more..

but laptop in question is, dedicated audio laptop, which has no software other than Foobar.No antivirus. No internet . Only windows.

In my case CPU utilization never goes beyond 20%(normaly10%) for the above mentioned setup, and I never heard the fan sound, because of non heating. and mostly I played my songs through external HDD. Cost wise my setup is descent .


So now question is-if above mentioned setup is compared to fully dedicated music PC, then what difference does it make in sound quotient. Means in good
revealing system, difference would be audible in case of my laptop??.

even if you spend lot of money on Music PC and spend less on DAC(good DAC less Jitter), then whole concept of music conversion from file format to analogue sound will get nullified IMO.
is there any difference between dedicated laptop for music(as mentioned above) and music PC in terms of SQ only not in terms of space and user friendliness.
Please give the comparison considering the laptop mentioned above only not normal daily use laptop with lot of software.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

A screen comes free

Like "so many free calls" are not really free at all, just included in the monthly cost, so is the screen on the laptop

Now, I got home from the shopping, and this is the idea I had about latency. We have to go on a flight of fancy here...

Imagine that, perhaps encouraged by single-malt, the audiophile session develops into a karaoke session! We need a sound card for this, but as it is imaginary, an imaginary sound card will do (and it has the advantage of being 100% free of jitter, noise, etc ).

Our vocally-inclined audiophiles play the karaoke track, through their sound card (J1), and listen to the music from the speakers. They then sing into the microphone, and their voices enter the PC through the sound card (J2), and are passed out again through the sound card (J3) to be played by the speakers.

All of these journeys, J1, J2, J3, is a journey through electronics and software processing that takes an amount of time, and the result is that

--- the orginal backing track

--- the voice in the head of the singer

--- the voice heard from the speakers

are not in perfect sync. This, in the context of audio (rather than several other ways in computing that the word is used) is Latency.

In the world of single-malt-fuelled karaoke, it probably goes unnoticed, but in the world of the recording studio it can matter very much indeed.

Latency can be measured (with a sound card, ie DAC/ADC by feeding the output into the input: there are utilities to do this.

Forget the karaoke. When listening to music, only J1 is there and, so long as it is consistent, and does not make the controls feel laggy, it absolutely does not matter how long it takes. Microseconds or minutes: the sound will still be the same. Forget latency.

Crossposted...

So now question is-if above mentioned setup is compared to fully dedicated music PC, then what difference does it make in sound quotient. Means in good
revealing system, difference would be audible in case of my laptop??.

Absolutely possible that you would not get any improvement whatsoever!

If the question is something like "I already have a laptop, I have good sound from my DAC, I am very happy: should I build a custom PC instead?" Then the answer is probably, No.

 

[gobble]

Latency is never a problem. I don't think anybody will believe this! But why should it be? It is the music-making people who have good reason to strive for lower latency, not the music listening people. (I'll post a bit more about this later... but I have to go out now)

I had an experience to the contrary on my e350m mobo based audio PC. Sound from a non-preemptible non-realtime kernel had a very ordinary quality to it . No excitement whatsoever. Moved to a realtime kernel with mpd patched and running at highest priority and the ehci ahci scsi and and USB interrupts also just below highest priority in a decreasing sequence - the sound had a hint of zing now. A bit of liveliness, foot tapping quality that was absent without realtime came through. I could also play with the sound by decreasing and increasing the priority of mpd to mimic the non-realtime case or adjust the periodic frequency of interrupts in microseconds for alsa to copy the data from its buffer to the audio device and tune the size of the buffer. The weight of the fundamental frequency of the bass notes would increase or diminish as I tuned it. I used some good pakhawaj recordings to tune by ear and arrive at how much heft and boom I wanted from the bass drum. Eventually I settled for an interrupt every 250millisec. Much higher than I anticipated for a modern PC running an RT kernel. But by then I began suspect the e350m has some hardware limitations and performance issues with achieving a high throughput system even with nothing but one use process running at 8? CPU utilization.

On my Cubox i4pro, I get great sound without a real time kernel - even better than the e350m in the retrieval of musicality and cues and also due to a much lower noisefloor. So much better that I postponed experimenting with an RT kernel so far. Maybe next month...

G0bble

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

I don't pretend to have all the ifs and buts, let alone all the answers, and I cannot suggest why one kernel configuration should sound better than another. In fact, I feel there is a wide-open huge question: Does one operating system sound better than another? I am not at all satisfied with the possibility of testing this on one machine: the boot process is too long; I would only be happy with identical hardware played in a blind test situation. Whilst I'm inclined to feel like that about such things as kernel configurations (which we had better discuss in a less general purpose thread, or the rest will get very bored indeed ) I don't suggest that you are wrong, except to say that I was not, in the previous post, talking about interrupts and that kind of latency.

the sound had a hint of zing now. A bit of liveliness, foot tapping quality that was absent

Currently I find a reboot fixes that... I really don't think I'm imagining it... I have no idea about the underlying reason.

It may be that us penguins are playing with a more complex toy, I don't know, but I guess that should be for another thread.

 

[haisaikat]

Does brand make any difference ? How about using the much cheaper Biostar A68I-350 motherboard which has pcie slot (for mounting a GPU) and can be used for both music pc and HTPC?

The similar version from Gigabyte costs hefty

 

[magma]

to the OP
i have a differnt take than some FMs here

sir
purely in my opinion

In most cases ( where mid fi gear is concerned )
a laptop with a good USB dac will work just as well

you would need some experience
mature hearing
the correct gear and make the bst of your room to actually make the differences in a dedicated PC count - (enough to warrant it)

a laptop with minimal software and resources can be configured
to run only music

in FACT ive heard several mc book pro based systems
they are phenominal
especilaly with clayton shaws room correction softwares
they will crap on most dedicated PC desktops that ive heard


i say all this though i use a dedicated headless MUSIC PC with a pro card
and the bell and whistle softwares

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

In most cases ( where mid fi gear is concerned )
a laptop with a good USB dac will work just as well

In fact, in many cases, it can be plug'n'play. Plug in the DAC, play the music