Advice on TT, Phono and Cartridge
- Thread starter TaureanBull
- Start date
TaureanBull
Active Member
Not sure about that. LP 12 plays only at 33RPM so 7" is out. Frankly speaking I am not convinced to buy a used TT at 600 GBP however good it is. Reason : These TTs were last produced in early 1970s.. Even if they were taken care of, they have done a great mileage.
I would compare like this : a brand new Technics SL-1210 Mk2 V/S used LP12 Sondek or Thorens TD125.
I am not sure what people will choose but I think if I buy a new piece it will serve me a long time. Its also the best seller with several million pieces in market. I am sure parts and accessories wont be a problem for a decade or two. Just my thoughts.
I would compare like this : a brand new Technics SL-1210 Mk2 V/S used LP12 Sondek or Thorens TD125.
I am not sure what people will choose but I think if I buy a new piece it will serve me a long time. Its also the best seller with several million pieces in market. I am sure parts and accessories wont be a problem for a decade or two. Just my thoughts.
TaureanBull
Active Member
You'll be happiest buying a new 1200/1210 as you've set your heart to it
No its not like that. I want a good turntable to serve me a decade and I should be able to tweak it a bit. Of course, I want it to sound good.
There are many many offers on net for used Garrards, Thoren TD 125/160, LP 12 etc. The ones which are cheap are not serviced or have some problems.
There are dealers who sell well serviced ready to use TTs with cart and tonearms. I like them but I think they have priced them a bit too high.
My quest not is to find out if a well serviced TT (Thoren TD125/160 or LP 12) priced at par with new technics, is worth that price or no?
I know technics is a good tt but its not the best tt around. right?
Its not exactly like that...
It is a good TT but is NOT as refined for audiophiles...
The 1200/1210 was made for robust use. For DJ's. So that it will be able to take the rigors of travel etc. Also the rough use that it would be subjected to. In terms of sound, it is meant to play out loud. in environments where pecky audiophiles won;t be bothered about things like soundstage and imaging... Not that it can't do that, but it ain't the most refined...
you could do a lot better with the same budget.
TaureanBull
Active Member
Thanks malvai.
This is what I am mulling over day and night -my options. I have a budget of about 50k all including (tonearm and cartridge etc). Few thousands here and there is ok. This is max, not that I intend to spend this much.
My problems:-
1. Which brands should I restrict myself to? It is important beacuse if I start with a very wide base then I would be very confused.
2. Should I buy a new piece or a used one?
3. If used one then shall I buy from a seller or from a store fully serviced and ready for use.
4. What is the possibility of buying a used TT and then building it in India? Possible?
If I can get this right then I can save money.As of now, I can say that technics is a reserve bet. In case I am not able to find any other better option, I just buy this one. ITS NOT THE FIRST AND MOST PREFFERED OPTION. The new piece will cost me about 525 GBP (Roughly 38K) with AT 440MLa cartridge after claiming back my VAT.
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TB: I guess, if you're open to pre-owned then rajiv's suggestion stands head over shoulders above the sondek. Though, both are great options for the price asked.
If you want a new TT, then stick to Rega or if you get a good price on Goldenote Valore (1st options), or Project (good 2nd option).
Apart from these, I don't see any TT's worth the money in the price band.
The Valore is awesome for the money spent. The new Rega range is truly great as well. Project is great value for money.
Audition these 3 - you'll know what I mean.
If you want a new TT, then stick to Rega or if you get a good price on Goldenote Valore (1st options), or Project (good 2nd option).
Apart from these, I don't see any TT's worth the money in the price band.
The Valore is awesome for the money spent. The new Rega range is truly great as well. Project is great value for money.
Audition these 3 - you'll know what I mean.
TaureanBull
Active Member
What would be better?
Thoren TD 125 MkII @ 450 GBP all inclusive (probably will have to buy the dust cover). Link below:-
THORENS 125 MK2 / SME 3009 / MAPLE PLINTH / SHURE V15 | eBay UK
or
Rega P3-24 @ 400 (less VAT) with elys cartridge. (I think its better to go for other cartridge, in which case the cost will increase slightly).
or
Rega P5. Hmmm.. this one looks like out of budget!
Thoren TD 125 MkII @ 450 GBP all inclusive (probably will have to buy the dust cover). Link below:-
THORENS 125 MK2 / SME 3009 / MAPLE PLINTH / SHURE V15 | eBay UK
or
Rega P3-24 @ 400 (less VAT) with elys cartridge. (I think its better to go for other cartridge, in which case the cost will increase slightly).
or
Rega P5. Hmmm.. this one looks like out of budget!
TB,
I do not want to hijack your thread. I did an audition yesterday and just wanted to share with everybody, something that you and similar people also may be interested. I am not in favor of opening new threads unnecessarily.
Everybody,
I got a call from the local SKS Traders a few days ago that a 2 year old Pro-ject 2 Xperience Superpack was available at their store and since I was looking for a not-too-expensive TT, I should go there and have a listen. The superpack actually means that it also contained the Pro-ject speedbox. Currently the superpack with the TT, speedbox and Rondo Red MC cartridge costs around Rs 80K new.
Yesterday late in the afternoon, on our way back from my in-laws place, my wife, son and I went in for a listen. We were not carrying any records of our own (I have a few decent pressings at home, but decided not to take them for the audition because I was not sure about the cartridge condition).
The TT did not have the original Ortofon Rondo Red MC cartridge on its 9c arm, because apparently the owner wanted to keep the USD 550 cartridge with him. It had the Shure M97xE MM, something I was quite familiar with, because that was in use in my Dual CS 5000.
The accompanying equipments were a quite capable Sugden A21 pure class A SS amp (whose phono stage was used for the audition) and budget range Quad 11L2 speakers (SKS had nothing better, not even an Epos M12i, for demo yesterday).
We listened to several items from the recent SaReGaMa LP release of 1942 a Love Story (the only other option was the one containing Sheila ki Jawani, I wanted my distance from it).
Altogether we listened for only about half an hour, because we were late for something else.
While getting in the car, our son (to be 20 on 20th April) whose only other TT experience has been the Dual CS 5000 at home, said, in his typical brief but precise manner, "I did not like it". And I agreed.
Even if for the fact that my Canton speakers would be something like 10 times as expensive compared to the Quads, and my amp is a very very special amp, I expected a lot better. At home I use a truly budget phonostage (CA 640P) and my Dual CS5000 TT has been described by Sushil Anand of Nova Audio to be easily beaten by the Pro-ject entry level Debut III TTs (he said that once in a telephone discussion with me about a year ago, and he was recommending an Ortofon OM 5 and nothing better for it when I was looking for a new cartridge). While my TT, phonostage are quite 'ordinary', I still a get very dynamic, clean and musically involving sound from them through my rig. Yesterday, the sound at SKS lacked any sort of clarity. It was quite muddy, tonally incorrect, less dynamic, less open, and instrument separation was quite ordinary.
Can the more experienced people explain a bit on my findings? Is it because the LP pressing was quite ordinary? Or the speakers were no match? But at home, I do not have all my LPs in pristine pressings. I even had a recent SaReGaMa release (can't remember which one, but I bought one) on my Dual set-up, and it was not nearly as bad.
You may ask why I am not continuing with my Dual. I would, but I do not think I can, because it's motor has failed again. Right now it's not spinning at all. I can again get it repaired (it has a microprocessor for quartz speed control), but those Chandni repair people are quite naive, I do not think the motor repair can be done in Kolkata with any degree of assurance. On the net also, nobody is selling the Dual CS 5000 motor.
Experts, some advice and comments please.
Regards.
I do not want to hijack your thread. I did an audition yesterday and just wanted to share with everybody, something that you and similar people also may be interested. I am not in favor of opening new threads unnecessarily.
Everybody,
I got a call from the local SKS Traders a few days ago that a 2 year old Pro-ject 2 Xperience Superpack was available at their store and since I was looking for a not-too-expensive TT, I should go there and have a listen. The superpack actually means that it also contained the Pro-ject speedbox. Currently the superpack with the TT, speedbox and Rondo Red MC cartridge costs around Rs 80K new.
Yesterday late in the afternoon, on our way back from my in-laws place, my wife, son and I went in for a listen. We were not carrying any records of our own (I have a few decent pressings at home, but decided not to take them for the audition because I was not sure about the cartridge condition).
The TT did not have the original Ortofon Rondo Red MC cartridge on its 9c arm, because apparently the owner wanted to keep the USD 550 cartridge with him. It had the Shure M97xE MM, something I was quite familiar with, because that was in use in my Dual CS 5000.
The accompanying equipments were a quite capable Sugden A21 pure class A SS amp (whose phono stage was used for the audition) and budget range Quad 11L2 speakers (SKS had nothing better, not even an Epos M12i, for demo yesterday).
We listened to several items from the recent SaReGaMa LP release of 1942 a Love Story (the only other option was the one containing Sheila ki Jawani, I wanted my distance from it).
Altogether we listened for only about half an hour, because we were late for something else.
While getting in the car, our son (to be 20 on 20th April) whose only other TT experience has been the Dual CS 5000 at home, said, in his typical brief but precise manner, "I did not like it". And I agreed.
Even if for the fact that my Canton speakers would be something like 10 times as expensive compared to the Quads, and my amp is a very very special amp, I expected a lot better. At home I use a truly budget phonostage (CA 640P) and my Dual CS5000 TT has been described by Sushil Anand of Nova Audio to be easily beaten by the Pro-ject entry level Debut III TTs (he said that once in a telephone discussion with me about a year ago, and he was recommending an Ortofon OM 5 and nothing better for it when I was looking for a new cartridge). While my TT, phonostage are quite 'ordinary', I still a get very dynamic, clean and musically involving sound from them through my rig. Yesterday, the sound at SKS lacked any sort of clarity. It was quite muddy, tonally incorrect, less dynamic, less open, and instrument separation was quite ordinary.
Can the more experienced people explain a bit on my findings? Is it because the LP pressing was quite ordinary? Or the speakers were no match? But at home, I do not have all my LPs in pristine pressings. I even had a recent SaReGaMa release (can't remember which one, but I bought one) on my Dual set-up, and it was not nearly as bad.
You may ask why I am not continuing with my Dual. I would, but I do not think I can, because it's motor has failed again. Right now it's not spinning at all. I can again get it repaired (it has a microprocessor for quartz speed control), but those Chandni repair people are quite naive, I do not think the motor repair can be done in Kolkata with any degree of assurance. On the net also, nobody is selling the Dual CS 5000 motor.
Experts, some advice and comments please.
Regards.
Asit Da,
There are so many factors to consider when evaluating a tt. Everything right from VTA, VTF, antiskate etc has to be correct. I doubt the expertise of SKS guy in setting up a cart. You need hours, maybe days to fine tune a cart.
Regards
Vasu
There are so many factors to consider when evaluating a tt. Everything right from VTA, VTF, antiskate etc has to be correct. I doubt the expertise of SKS guy in setting up a cart. You need hours, maybe days to fine tune a cart.
Regards
Vasu
Manav,
Currently, the 2 Xperience III when sold separately comes with an entry level 2M Red cartridge. Today I contrasted the specs of M97xE with the 2M Red, and they are quite similar, except that the 2M Red is a tiny bit heavier (7.2 gm as opposed to 6.6 gm) and the optimal tracking forces are also quite similar (respectively 1.5 vs 1.25). The 2m Red has a slightly higher output of 5.5mV vs 4 mV on the M97xE. Performance-wise, the 2M Red and the M97xE should be quite similar (stylus tips are elliptical for both). BTW, the this TT in the superpack version comes with the 9c version, but as far as I can see from the latest brochures on the Pro-ject site, when sold alone it comes with 9cc arm which does not have a separate head-shell, the whole arm including the head shell is made from a single piece (carbon). Both are 9" and otherwise same.
Vasu,
Yes, that's a definite possibility. I did not check the setting because of time pressure. I am not sure even basic things like the arm balancing was done properly because the M97xE weighs much less than the Rondo Red MC cart (which weighs more than 10 gm). Tracking forces are also vastly different. The Rondo Red needs almost double the tracking force. Now, if the guy just mounted the M97xE without changing anything else, it should be a disaster.
If I go for it, I definitely have to go for a good cartridge down the line, something like Dynavector 10x5 or a 2M Bronze or so and a better phono stage.
Regards.
Currently, the 2 Xperience III when sold separately comes with an entry level 2M Red cartridge. Today I contrasted the specs of M97xE with the 2M Red, and they are quite similar, except that the 2M Red is a tiny bit heavier (7.2 gm as opposed to 6.6 gm) and the optimal tracking forces are also quite similar (respectively 1.5 vs 1.25). The 2m Red has a slightly higher output of 5.5mV vs 4 mV on the M97xE. Performance-wise, the 2M Red and the M97xE should be quite similar (stylus tips are elliptical for both). BTW, the this TT in the superpack version comes with the 9c version, but as far as I can see from the latest brochures on the Pro-ject site, when sold alone it comes with 9cc arm which does not have a separate head-shell, the whole arm including the head shell is made from a single piece (carbon). Both are 9" and otherwise same.
Vasu,
Yes, that's a definite possibility. I did not check the setting because of time pressure. I am not sure even basic things like the arm balancing was done properly because the M97xE weighs much less than the Rondo Red MC cart (which weighs more than 10 gm). Tracking forces are also vastly different. The Rondo Red needs almost double the tracking force. Now, if the guy just mounted the M97xE without changing anything else, it should be a disaster.
If I go for it, I definitely have to go for a good cartridge down the line, something like Dynavector 10x5 or a 2M Bronze or so and a better phono stage.
Regards.
Asit, despite the similar specs of both cartridges, the SQ is quite different. The 2m is a little warmer. Plus the 2M is mated to the tonearm on the Project which is why it is the stock cartrige. also, like myriad mentioned, the cartridge adjustment is a tricky thing. it would make all the difference.
Further, having lived with the 2 Expression III for many months, I found it to be quite a good TT in comparison to a lot of TT's old and new. and like all TT's it needed just the right adjustment to get it playing right. even minute adjustments made incremental improvements in the sound.
Don;t dismiss it based on that one audition, as the person demoing it probably didn't do many things right....
Go with time on hand, with a person who can make the adjustments. you'll hear the difference then...
try and get the guy to attach the rondo red for your demo. that is the perfect cartridge for this particular tonearm and table... anything less will not show you its true potential. also what phono was the guy using?
This is perhaps the single reason why people move away from vinyl
as mentioned by malvai..it can perhaps take hours/days/weeks to get it right !. i am still only 30% done... do not have the expertise to take it further.
reubensm
Well-Known Member
Depends on what you have to play on it....if you have a collection of old second-hand LPs you'll need a turntable built to handle just anything...when you require great tracking ability for those old records, nothing would come close to the Technics S-Arm. It is a fantastic design and seldom skips and mis-tracks. If you have new LPs, the Projects and the Musichalls would be great. The technicsl sl1200 turntables are built like tanks and would easily last a life time (for domestic use). for carts, shure would be the best bet and value for the buck spent. Again, if on old LPs, use the M44-7 as this cart almost never skips...the disclaimer here would be that the M44-7 sound is a bit coloured with pronounced lows, also the gain is a bit higher than the average moving magnetic cart. all the very best.
Manav, Arj, Reubensm and jls001,
Thank you all for your comments. The reasons identified by you for less than satisfactory audition-experience with the Pro-ject 2 Xperience are all quite plausible and actually possible.
Today I had a talk with the SKS salesperson and he confessed that the TT probably was not set up right. In addition, the pure class A Sugden amp was surely not warmed up, because he just powered it on as we arrived there in front of us. I do not think the amp got properly warmed up before we left.
I had a Technics TT long time ago (between 1986 and 1988) although at this point I am not sure of the model (I bought an all-Technics setup, comprising of TT, Cassette deck, tuner, amp and speakers). It was an entry level, nothing special. I think whatever Reubensm has said about the SL 1200 model is quite true. They are quite robust and meant for a particular purpose and has cult-like following around the world. About my vinyl collection, although I bought a few old vinyls (in fair to excellent conditions), most of my meagre vinyl collection comprises of records purchased new.
The SKS guy has promised me he would get the owner of the TT to set it up correctly. I'd wait and visit them again.
Regards.
PS: This evening I visted a m3 store in our neighbouring mall (City Centre Mall in Salt Lake, Kolkata) and was basically looking for a few CDs. Then to my surprise, I found 3 new LP releases: Vande Mataram by ARR, and music tracks of Rang De Basanti and of Jodha Akbar (all by Sony Music). A label on the plastic wrapping said that they were all 180 gsm high quality vinyl and manufactured in Austria. Could this be true that they are really bringing 180g records? Although I do not listen to film music very often (quite fond of many film music though), I bought all 3 out of sheer excitement and now I have no working TT at home to play them on :sad:.
Thank you all for your comments. The reasons identified by you for less than satisfactory audition-experience with the Pro-ject 2 Xperience are all quite plausible and actually possible.
Today I had a talk with the SKS salesperson and he confessed that the TT probably was not set up right. In addition, the pure class A Sugden amp was surely not warmed up, because he just powered it on as we arrived there in front of us. I do not think the amp got properly warmed up before we left.
I had a Technics TT long time ago (between 1986 and 1988) although at this point I am not sure of the model (I bought an all-Technics setup, comprising of TT, Cassette deck, tuner, amp and speakers). It was an entry level, nothing special. I think whatever Reubensm has said about the SL 1200 model is quite true. They are quite robust and meant for a particular purpose and has cult-like following around the world. About my vinyl collection, although I bought a few old vinyls (in fair to excellent conditions), most of my meagre vinyl collection comprises of records purchased new.
The SKS guy has promised me he would get the owner of the TT to set it up correctly. I'd wait and visit them again.
Regards.
PS: This evening I visted a m3 store in our neighbouring mall (City Centre Mall in Salt Lake, Kolkata) and was basically looking for a few CDs. Then to my surprise, I found 3 new LP releases: Vande Mataram by ARR, and music tracks of Rang De Basanti and of Jodha Akbar (all by Sony Music). A label on the plastic wrapping said that they were all 180 gsm high quality vinyl and manufactured in Austria. Could this be true that they are really bringing 180g records? Although I do not listen to film music very often (quite fond of many film music though), I bought all 3 out of sheer excitement and now I have no working TT at home to play them on :sad:.
gx502
New Member
Hi,
(this is my first post, and my name is Rav, and I am from Melbourne, Australia.)
I am a big fan of the Technics SL1200, my main turntable at home is a heavily modified SL1200 (Mike New Bearing, Jelco SA-750D arm, Timestep PSU), so please bear in mind my personal biases when reading my comments. I am also a long time Linn LP12 owner, since 1986.
I just wanted to clarify, that the SL1200 was NOT originally not designed as a DJ deck, it was specifically designed for home hifi use.
Due to its robust nature, this turntable was adopted by DJ's. Later in its evolution from MK3 onwards, Technics added features for the DJ market (increased pitch adjustment, and wider range for the anti-skate and so on...).
Now from my limited experience, I would say that a stock out of the box SL1200 MK2/5, can be beaten sonically by a P3-24. But the Technics is a deck, that has such a quality of build that it will last a lifetime, and can grow with you due to the number of upgrades available.
To get the best of the SL1200, you either need to tweak it a little, or to get it right out of the box you must match it sympathetically with a cartridge that can lift the stock deck's somewhat dark sound (due to the tonearm wiring!).
I think the people from the TNT-audio web site, seem to have got the measure of the deck. Please read the link below:
Technics SL-1200 MkII turntable - [English]
(Note: they matched the deck with a MC Benz, and this gives an indication of the SL1200 performance potential. Most people I know who take the time to understand this deck, end up deeply enamoured with it.)
For moderately priced cartridges that work well with the SL1200, I would suggest the AT440ML, or the cheaper AT120e. Also I have read the Ortofon 2M series works well also.
For the record and the OP, who may be travelling to the UK, I also highly recommend the P3-24, its a great deck, and the Rega arms are excellent.
But I would advise against getting a 2nd hand LP12, unless you know someone locally in India who is familiar with the setup of LP12's, or if the OP feels brave/competent to manage the LP12 himself.
I have no experience of Project decks, but I personally dislike them, just based on the fact that every time I have seen one of the Project decks at a dealer in the UK or Aus, they look like they are something that could fall apart at any second.
Kindest regards
Rav
(this is my first post, and my name is Rav, and I am from Melbourne, Australia.)
I am a big fan of the Technics SL1200, my main turntable at home is a heavily modified SL1200 (Mike New Bearing, Jelco SA-750D arm, Timestep PSU), so please bear in mind my personal biases when reading my comments. I am also a long time Linn LP12 owner, since 1986.
I just wanted to clarify, that the SL1200 was NOT originally not designed as a DJ deck, it was specifically designed for home hifi use.
Due to its robust nature, this turntable was adopted by DJ's. Later in its evolution from MK3 onwards, Technics added features for the DJ market (increased pitch adjustment, and wider range for the anti-skate and so on...).
Now from my limited experience, I would say that a stock out of the box SL1200 MK2/5, can be beaten sonically by a P3-24. But the Technics is a deck, that has such a quality of build that it will last a lifetime, and can grow with you due to the number of upgrades available.
To get the best of the SL1200, you either need to tweak it a little, or to get it right out of the box you must match it sympathetically with a cartridge that can lift the stock deck's somewhat dark sound (due to the tonearm wiring!).
I think the people from the TNT-audio web site, seem to have got the measure of the deck. Please read the link below:
Technics SL-1200 MkII turntable - [English]
(Note: they matched the deck with a MC Benz, and this gives an indication of the SL1200 performance potential. Most people I know who take the time to understand this deck, end up deeply enamoured with it.)
For moderately priced cartridges that work well with the SL1200, I would suggest the AT440ML, or the cheaper AT120e. Also I have read the Ortofon 2M series works well also.
For the record and the OP, who may be travelling to the UK, I also highly recommend the P3-24, its a great deck, and the Rega arms are excellent.
But I would advise against getting a 2nd hand LP12, unless you know someone locally in India who is familiar with the setup of LP12's, or if the OP feels brave/competent to manage the LP12 himself.
I have no experience of Project decks, but I personally dislike them, just based on the fact that every time I have seen one of the Project decks at a dealer in the UK or Aus, they look like they are something that could fall apart at any second.
Kindest regards
Rav
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TaureanBull
Active Member
thanks to all of you for a healthy discussion and suggestions. I finally bought a Thoren TD 125 Mk II and SME 3009 tonearm. I am yet to buy the cartridge so I seek your advise once again.
Good choice! Congrats!
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