All That Jazz ...

[Fiftyfifty]

Sushant do not listen to this. Moktan has gone abstract in his wilderness !

Now my album du jour.Gently moving along and swinging. And suddenly you hear “Jesus Christ Super Star”. This one is easy. Desmond’s only showing with the Modern Jazz Quartet. All of Desmond is easy bur interesting!

I think Paul Desmond is the most lyrical sax player of them all. Let's not be fooled by his entertaining approach. Listen to him and Brubeck try to outplay each other on 'Jazz at Oberlin'

Another lyrical jazz musician to me is the pianist Wynton Kelly. Hear how is the the perfect foil to the horn section on Miles Davis Kind of Blue album. His opening solo on Freddie Freeloader is simply outstanding

This very solo is vocalised note for note by the very talented Bobby McFerrin here, before Al Jarreau comes in with his outstanding vocalese 'There's this Cat, his name is Freddiiie' of Miles's trumpet solo. Must listen, but only after one has attentively heard the original.

 

[vivek_r]

Vivek, I am the deer in headlights..haha..will give this one a listen. thanks for the suggestion.

Nothing like that. Just keep listening and trying. I love this Apple and Amazon music (don’t have Spotify). Don’t get lost in technicality. As the great master played below: (greatest of jazz albums but it’s the title I refer to)

 

[Jayant_S]

think Paul Desmond is the most lyrical sax player of them all

Couldn't agree more! He's the spine of the Brubeck quartet and I couldn't imagine their huge success without him. I just LOVE the sound of Paul Desmond's sax

 

[coaltrain]

@ sushant
IIRC, you had raised similar interesting questions a while ago, wrt how we each had got into jazz. This time, it’s more to do with appreciating the music, and there are quite a few enlightening answers. As a jazz aficionado for many decades, allow me to throw my $0.02 into the mix.

Let me start by going back in time to when I was a jazz newbie in college. This was long before the internet, let alone streaming music services! The biggest challenge was figuring out what to listen to. One had to rely on friends and the print media to discover new artists and albums; and no chance of listening to clips before buying

My self education started with music magazines from the footpath and local libraries. Once I started earning, I graduated to a Downbeat subscription. All the while, I would read about what others were hearing, and then try to figure out if the music would appeal to my ears.

Then, in ‘95, I discovered the Penguin Guide to Jazz! This book, more than any other, helped shape my understanding and my collection. It’s exceptionally well researched and well written by two jazz connoisseurs who really know their stuff. And, while I don’t agree with their favourites some of the time, it’s a great way to navigate the vast ocean of recordings that are out there.

The other book that really drew me into the world of jazz was Miles’ autobiography. As Moktan mentioned, these guys were really ‘out there’! Reading about how these cats made their music only added to the joy of hearing it played.

While most people today prefer watching youtube clips, I’d still recommend reading about the artists and checking out their interviews and reviews. It’s the reason why I still subscribe to Downbeat. Oh, and don’t take any expert’s opinion as gospel. Just as you would with your hardware, trust your own ears to guide you towards what you like.

As you can see, I still have my first copy of the Penguin Guide to Jazz on CD, LP and Cassette!

 

[Sushant Sharma]

@ sushant
IIRC, you had raised similar interesting questions a while ago, wrt how we each had got into jazz. This time, it’s more to do with appreciating the music, and there are quite a few enlightening answers. As a jazz aficionado for many decades, allow me to throw my $0.02 into the mix.

Let me start by going back in time to when I was a jazz newbie in college. This was long before the internet, let alone streaming music services! The biggest challenge was figuring out what to listen to. One had to rely on friends and the print media to discover new artists and albums; and no chance of listening to clips before buying

My self education started with music magazines from the footpath and local libraries. Once I started earning, I graduated to a Downbeat subscription. All the while, I would read about what others were hearing, and then try to figure out if the music would appeal to my ears.

Then, in ‘95, I discovered the Penguin Guide to Jazz! This book, more than any other, helped shape my understanding and my collection. It’s exceptionally well researched and well written by two jazz connoisseurs who really know their stuff. And, while I don’t agree with their favourites some of the time, it’s a great way to navigate the vast ocean of recordings that are out there.

The other book that really drew me into the world of jazz was Miles’ autobiography. As Moktan mentioned, these guys were really ‘out there’! Reading about how these cats made their music only added to the joy of hearing it played.

While most people today prefer watching youtube clips, I’d still recommend reading about the artists and checking out their interviews and reviews. It’s the reason why I still subscribe to Downbeat. Oh, and don’t take any expert’s opinion as gospel. Just as you would with your hardware, trust your own ears to guide you towards what you like.

As you can see, I still have my first copy of the Penguin Guide to Jazz on CD, LP and Cassette!

View attachment 45334View attachment 45336View attachment 45337

Thanks for sharing that Coaltrain. While I am very happy to have fellow members pitch in with great feedback and suggestions when I reached out for help but I must admit it's also slightly embarrassing to have this attention. Also i just went to my last post and apologies I missed your reply.

So, I think the general consensus seems to be to read more and gather more information. will keep a lookout for downbeat and the Penguin guide you mentioned. I could say while you started listening to jazz in 1995, my music journey at the same time was in a bit more nascent stage and I was getting into all kinds of rock music but yes I bought a few magazines I could get my hands on and relied on word of mouth to figure what I could listen to and bought cassettes without the luxury of sampling on youtube. I guess the exercise with the search will need to be repeated again albeit with some ease of technology at my disposal to help at times. There aren't any shortcuts i realize. Perhaps, I felt I have been listening to music for so long I should be able to reap immediate rewards with the transition to jazz aswell. And before anyone else says it, I will remember to enjoy the journey aswell. thanks.

 

[Nikhil]

Though jazz is cerebral I do not want to overreach myself by attempting to intellectualize

Come on Moktan!!

You can't leave us hanging like that man. Would be very interested in hearing your take on that aspect if jazz.

Regards



.

 

[Nikhil]

@ sushant
IIRC, you had raised similar interesting questions a while ago, wrt how we each had got into jazz. This time, it’s more to do with appreciating the music, and there are quite a few enlightening answers. As a jazz aficionado for many decades, allow me to throw my $0.02 into the mix.

Let me start by going back in time to when I was a jazz newbie in college. This was long before the internet, let alone streaming music services! The biggest challenge was figuring out what to listen to. One had to rely on friends and the print media to discover new artists and albums; and no chance of listening to clips before buying

My self education started with music magazines from the footpath and local libraries. Once I started earning, I graduated to a Downbeat subscription. All the while, I would read about what others were hearing, and then try to figure out if the music would appeal to my ears.

Then, in ‘95, I discovered the Penguin Guide to Jazz! This book, more than any other, helped shape my understanding and my collection. It’s exceptionally well researched and well written by two jazz connoisseurs who really know their stuff. And, while I don’t agree with their favourites some of the time, it’s a great way to navigate the vast ocean of recordings that are out there.

The other book that really drew me into the world of jazz was Miles’ autobiography. As Moktan mentioned, these guys were really ‘out there’! Reading about how these cats made their music only added to the joy of hearing it played.

While most people today prefer watching youtube clips, I’d still recommend reading about the artists and checking out their interviews and reviews. It’s the reason why I still subscribe to Downbeat. Oh, and don’t take any expert’s opinion as gospel. Just as you would with your hardware, trust your own ears to guide you towards what you like.

As you can see, I still have my first copy of the Penguin Guide to Jazz on CD, LP and Cassette!

View attachment 45334View attachment 45336View attachment 45337

Coaltrain,

Thanks for sharing those pictures of your library. Some very interesting titles in there. I need to look up the Penguin Guide myself. Is it available as an ebook nowadays?

Regards


.

 

[moktan]

Its available on Kindle.

Coaltrain,

Thanks for sharing those pictures of your library. Some very interesting titles in there. I need to look up the Penguin Guide myself. Is it available as an ebook nowadays?

Regards


.

 

[coaltrain]

Coaltrain,

Thanks for sharing those pictures of your library. Some very interesting titles in there. I need to look up the Penguin Guide myself. Is it available as an ebook nowadays?

This is the Penguin Jazz Guide to the Top 1000 albums, in chronological order. Not as comprehensive as the original, but a great place to start. And it’s only 500 bucks! Just dump it on your iPad.

The Penguin Jazz Guide: The History of the Music in the 1000 Best Albums eBook : Morton, Brian, Cook, Richard: Amazon.in: Kindle Store

The Penguin Jazz Guide: The History of the Music in the 1000 Best Albums eBook : Morton, Brian, Cook, Richard: Amazon.in: Kindle Store

www.amazon.in

 

[coaltrain]

Thanks for sharing that Coaltrain. While I am very happy to have fellow members pitch in with great feedback and suggestions when I reached out for help but I must admit it's also slightly embarrassing to have this attention. Also i just went to my last post and apologies I missed your reply.

So, I think the general consensus seems to be to read more and gather more information. will keep a lookout for downbeat and the Penguin guide you mentioned. I could say while you started listening to jazz in 1995, my music journey at the same time was in a bit more nascent stage and I was getting into all kinds of rock music but yes I bought a few magazines I could get my hands on and relied on word of mouth to figure what I could listen to and bought cassettes without the luxury of sampling on youtube. I guess the exercise with the search will need to be repeated again albeit with some ease of technology at my disposal to help at times. There aren't any shortcuts i realize. Perhaps, I felt I have been listening to music for so long I should be able to reap immediate rewards with the transition to jazz aswell. And before anyone else says it, I will remember to enjoy the journey aswell. thanks.

Nothing to be embarrassed about, Sushant! On the contrary, I’m sure others are benefitting from your questions, too.

 

[coaltrain]

View attachment 45316

I found this book to be an invaluable reference.

Totally agree, Jayant!
Bought this when I was starting out and it’s a great book for beginners. Can’t remember where I picked it up, though; fountainhead or gangarams, perhaps.

 

[Jayant_S]

Totally agree, Jayant!
Bought this when I was starting out and it’s a great book for beginners. Can’t remember where I picked it up, though; fountainhead or gangarams, perhaps.

View attachment 45343

I've been spying on your bookshelf (an earlier post) and drooling over the DC and Marvel books/novellas!

Let me also say this before anyone else jumps in :
The day you decide to downsize the Blue Note collection and/or books, I'm first in line please!

 

[coaltrain]

Let me also say this before anyone else jumps in :
The day you decide to downsize the Blue Note collection and/or books, I'm first in line please!

LOL!
Right now, the only thing I’m protecting is my dwindling stock of liquid refreshment!
Everything else is up for grabs

 

[Deleted member 15865]

So I like listening to Jazz and have only been doing it for a short while. When you have spent a major part listening to rock or pop or fusion or what not, you understand how key instruments maybe the guitar in a rock setting or the drums function. You might also have held the guitar and dabbled into it or seen your friends play it. You know from repetition or otherwise how this music plays or goes. I know what band Eddie Vedder was in before pearl jam or how Kurt Cobain rose to fame or trivia and things related to older rock bands which draw you closer and paint a more intimate scene between you and the performer.

When you make a transition to a form like jazz, sure you buy the album "kind of blue" or see multiple praises about Coltrane or Bill Evan's or the Greats and the usual suspects. The problem someone like me faced was I had never really heard a Sax or Piano or trumpet being played live, far from having tried my hand at playing any of these instruments. So by repetition you memorise maybe Kind of blue or Giant steps. When listening maybe you look for the interplay between band members and learn a thing or two about call and response and things of the like.
To cut a long story short, you might need to read more about the art form and about the performers and styles and so on.

e.g a FM places importance on knowing the tone of instruments in live settings so you know the tone being reproduced by an instrument when you listen at home. I agree.

Another FM said to me "jazz is too wide an area for me, I like Hard bop and so forth". made me realise I lean more towards cool jazz and fusion.

Another FM just on another post said something about the piano and how when a key is struck, the pianist cannot hold that note as long as a vocalist or a wind instrument can and uses techniques to embellish. So true.

I just saw a video about how a Jazz Pianist would play the piano differently when playing solo, Duo, Trio or in a full band setting.
It just came to my attention the memebers in Oscar Petersons band and relation to the Modern Jazz Qurtet and some other similar things.
Dont get me wrong, I dont mean to paint a picture for others like me about it all being daunting and an uphill battle. I also just play tunes and let go and relax.

My request to the memebers who have been listening to jazz or other art forms longer and have a better understanding, please do share (if you feel like now and then) more anecdotes or knowledge of the art form when posting, it really helps a newbie like me. Though I understand, jazz appreciation can be a college course in itself. thanks for reading this long winded post.

@Sushant Sharma, more knowledgable FMs have spoken above and while it is all very useful, it also points to how each one of us journeys differently. Here are my two cents (two precisely) as an uninformed Jazz listener over the last 3-5 years.

The two aspects of Jazz that particularly attract (and retain) me to the genre are:

1. Improvisation:
I don’t know of any other form of music apart from Indian classical which is so heavily based on improvisation. That’s a big reason I love Hindustani classical, and also a major reason why I continue to explore Jazz. For there may be standards (like Ragas or Bandishes to be more correct) but each performance is ‘what happened then’. That somehow adds a sense of surprise/wow for me. Sure I don’t mind written music, but the ‘here & now’ that leads to improvised music is magical. What all contributes to it? IDK, but guess it includes the mood of the performers, the venue, the audience (when live), action-reaction between players and a dozen other things I don’t know. Improvisation is also of the reasons I find Jazz cerebral (the term someone used above) - actually right brain of the cerebrum! And I believe what comes from right brain can be better appreciated by the right brain. So I don’t try to decompose and analyse it, but just experience and flow with it. Same as with Hindustani classical.

2. Co-creation/Fusion:
I am looking for better word than ‘co-creation’ to explain this. ‘Fusion’ is a better word if not taken here as merger of two genres. What I see is that even though there’s one of the players who has composed (loosely speaking) the particular piece, it is created together, as a joint effort, while playing. Jugalbandis in Indian classical come close. All the Jazz players are at the same level - it’s a democratic form that way (Rock is another) and values as well as promotes individual identity. So Jazz liner notes will write in detail about each musician’s contribution to the piece. There are no instrumentalists here - they are all musicians - creating the music... together. And what you get as a result, is a unique product of this fusion, which showcases, but transcends the individual talents and contributions.

When I listen to Jazz, I try and keep myself loosely at the ‘gestalt’ level from where I can experience (be one with) the results of this spontaneity and chemistry - whether it is large band swing, Bebop, hard bop, cool, post bop, crossover, avant-garde or Jazz fusion.

 

[Sushant Sharma]

@Sushant Sharma, more knowledgable FMs have spoken above and while it is all very useful, it also points to how each one of us journeys differently. Here are my two cents (two precisely) as an uninformed Jazz listener over the last 3-5 years.

The two aspects of Jazz that particularly attract (and retain) me to the genre are:

1. Improvisation:
I don’t know of any other form of music apart from Indian classical which is so heavily based on improvisation. That’s a big reason I love Hindustani classical, and also a major reason why I continue to explore Jazz. For there may be standards (like Ragas or Bandishes to be more correct) but each performance is ‘what happened then’. That somehow adds a sense of surprise/wow for me. Sure I don’t mind written music, but the ‘here & now’ that leads to improvised music is magical. What all contributes to it? IDK, but guess it includes the mood of the performers, the venue, the audience (when live), action-reaction between players and a dozen other things I don’t know. Improvisation is also of the reasons I find Jazz cerebral (the term someone used above) - actually right brain of the cerebrum! And I believe what comes from right brain can be better appreciated by the right brain. So I don’t try to decompose and analyse it, but just experience and flow with it. Same as with Hindustani classical.

2. Co-creation/Fusion:
I am looking for better word than ‘co-creation’ to explain this. ‘Fusion is a better word if not taken here as merger of two genres. What I see is that even though there’s one of the players who has composed (loosely speaking) the particular piece, it is created together, as a joint effort, while playing. Jugalbandis in Indian classical come close. All the Jazz players are at the same level - it’s a democratic form that way (Rock is another) and values as well as promotes individual identity. So Jazz liner notes will write in detail about each musician’s contribution to the piece. There are no instrumentalists here - they are all musicians - creating the music... together. And what you get as a result, is a unique product of this fusion, which showcases, but transcends the individual talents and contributions.

When I listen to Jazz, I try and keep myself loosely at the ‘gestalt’ level from where I can experience (be one with) the results of this spontaneity and chemistry - whether it is large band swing, Bebop, hard bop, cool, post bop, crossover, avant-garde or Jazz fusion.

@SachinChavan Thanks for that. I couldnt have put that any better if I wanted to. I am totally in agreement with your 2 "dollars". I am a novice jazz listener myself and can say only that with certainty, I do love the form for sure. Perhaps, where I am at in the journey is to decipher some clues to the music to enjoy it more.

I wouldn't have the wherwithal to even try and attempt dissecting anything.

If I can take the liberty and because I am excited at new found discoveries and perhaps am getting ahead of myself but will get into these little details anyways,
e.g. In trying to improve my jazz vocabulary, 2 terms stuck with me yesterday,
1. BREAK: usually occurring at the beginning of a solo and the author pointed me to Lee Morgan on Blue Train on a song called Locomotion. Now it happens at 3:31 minutes into it, just for 5 to 8 seconds.
2. STOP TIME, usually occurs during a solo, the rhythm section plays only on the 1st beat of every 2 or 4 bars. Case in point Sonny Rollins "I know that you know" at 35 seconds in and lasts for approx little more 10 seconds or so.

These 2 revelations are a drop in the ocean but these things made me more aware of whats happening and appreciate the music more. Just some cues to stay glued in. I have seen you post with insight and experience about about Hindustani Classical music and I am sure you know more than a thing or two about what the performer is doing at certain times into the performance. I am just attempting to only understand a bit to aid in the enjoyment of the music. On the point of whether jazz musicians just had great sense of music and performed without knowing or paying heed to any of these terminologies etc, I dont know. I dont know if these terms were coined later once the guys who did had winged them. But I hear the musicians today have a whole heap of info available and I dont know if it aids or hampers there horizons or way of playing jazz.
I totally agree with remaining at a "gestalt" level when hearing music and that's what I have been doing more or less but sometimes I feel the sum of the parts can also be very enjoyable to know.

 

[Deleted member 15865]

@SachinChavan Thanks for that. I couldnt have put that any better if I wanted to. I am totally in agreement with your 2 "dollars". I am a novice jazz listener myself and can say only that with certainty, I do love the form for sure. Perhaps, where I am at in the journey is to decipher some clues to the music to enjoy it more.

I wouldn't have the wherwithal to even try and attempt dissecting anything.

If I can take the liberty and because I am excited at new found discoveries and perhaps am getting ahead of myself but will get into these little details anyways,
e.g. In trying to improve my jazz vocabulary, 2 terms stuck with me yesterday,
1. BREAK: usually occurring at the beginning of a solo and the author pointed me to Lee Morgan on Blue Train on a song called Locomotion. Now it happens at 3:31 minutes into it, just for 5 to 8 seconds.
2. STOP TIME, usually occurs during a solo, the rhythm section plays only on the 1st beat of every 2 or 4 bars. Case in point Sonny Rollins "I know that you know" at 35 seconds in and lasts for approx little more 10 seconds or so.

These 2 revelations are a drop in the ocean but these things made me more aware of whats happening and appreciate the music more. Just some cues to stay glued in. I have seen you post with insight and experience about about Hindustani Classical music and I am sure you know more than a thing or two about what the performer is doing at certain times into the performance. I am just attempting to only understand a bit to aid in the enjoyment of the music. On the point of whether jazz musicians just had great sense of music and performed without knowing or paying heed to any of these terminologies etc, I dont know. I dont know if these terms were coined later once the guys who did had winged them. But I hear the musicians today have a whole heap of info available and I dont know if it aids or hampers there horizons or way of playing jazz.
I totally agree with remaining at a "gestalt" level when hearing music and that's what I have been doing more or less but sometimes I feel the sum of the parts can also be very enjoyable to know.

Well put, @Sushant Sharma. As I said, individual journeys into a given music form can be vastly different - depending upon our personality, identity and host of other things (eg early conditioning, surroundings etc.). What I wrote about my listening of Jazz should be seen only as descriptive, not prescriptive. we all approach the same music from different angles/approaches. A musician, a student, a casual listener, an analyst... each would approach differently. I see you are a combination of musician and a student of music. Understandably you look for, understand and appreciate the nuances like break and stop time that you introduced me to.

It‘s indeed an interesting debate whether formal learning makes a better musician or learnings are extracted from what great musicians did instinctively. Perhaps a combination of both? And perhaps Daniel Kahneman can help us here connect the two. From the Introduction to his ‘Thinking, Fast and Slow’ - “The psychology of accurate intuition involves no magic. Perhaps the best short statement of it is by the great Herbert Simon, who studied chess masters and showed that after thousands of hours of practice they come to see the pieces on the board differently from the rest of us. The situation has provided a cue; this cue has given the expert access to information stored in memory, and the information provides the answer. Intuition is nothing more and nothing less than recognition.” Or may be not.

 

[Sushant Sharma]

@SachinChavan Thanks for that. I couldnt have put that any better if I wanted to. I am totally in agreement with your 2 "dollars". I am a novice jazz listener myself and can say only that with certainty, I do love the form for sure. Perhaps, where I am at in the journey is to decipher some clues to the music to enjoy it more.

I wouldn't have the wherwithal to even try and attempt dissecting anything.

If I can take the liberty and because I am excited at new found discoveries and perhaps am getting ahead of myself but will get into these little details anyways,
e.g. In trying to improve my jazz vocabulary, 2 terms stuck with me yesterday,
1. BREAK: usually occurring at the beginning of a solo and the author pointed me to Lee Morgan on Blue Train on a song called Locomotion. Now it happens at 3:31 minutes into it, just for 5 to 8 seconds.
2. STOP TIME, usually occurs during a solo, the rhythm section plays only on the 1st beat of every 2 or 4 bars. Case in point Sonny Rollins "I know that you know" at 35 seconds in and lasts for approx little more 10 seconds or so.

These 2 revelations are a drop in the ocean but these things made me more aware of whats happening and appreciate the music more. Just some cues to stay glued in. I have seen you post with insight and experience about about Hindustani Classical music and I am sure you know more than a thing or two about what the performer is doing at certain times into the performance. I am just attempting to only understand a bit to aid in the enjoyment of the music. On the point of whether jazz musicians just had great sense of music and performed without knowing or paying heed to any of these terminologies etc, I dont know. I dont know if these terms were coined later once the guys who did had winged them. But I hear the musicians today have a whole heap of info available and I dont know if it aids or hampers there horizons or way of playing jazz.
I totally agree with remaining at a "gestalt" level when hearing music and that's what I have been doing more or less but sometimes I feel the sum of the parts can also be very enjoyable to know.

the stop time lasts more than 60 seconds or so not 10 seconds.

 

[Nikhil]

Wow!

Some great contributions to the thread going on.
Have been enjoying seeing you guys take a deeper dive into the subject.

Keep on ...




.

 

[Jayant_S]

LOL!
Right now, the only thing I’m protecting is my dwindling stock of liquid refreshment!
Everything else is up for grabs

If you're in Bangalore, I'm showing up at your home with a mini truck when the lock down eases up
I'll be just as happy to come browse through your treasure trove and sponge up more Jazz gyan.

 

[Sushant Sharma]

Well put, @Sushant Sharma. As I said, individual journeys into a given music form can be vastly different - depending upon our personality, identity and host of other things (eg early conditioning, surroundings etc.). What I wrote about my listening of Jazz should be seen only as descriptive, not prescriptive. we all approach the same music from different angles/approaches. A musician, a student, a casual listener, an analyst... each would approach differently. I see you are a combination of musician and a student of music. Understandably you look for, understand and appreciate the nuances like break and stop time that you introduced me to.

It‘s indeed an interesting debate whether formal learning makes a better musician or learnings are extracted from what great musicians did instinctively. Perhaps a combination of both? And perhaps Daniel Kahneman can help us here connect the two. From the Introduction to his ‘Thinking, Fast and Slow’ - “The psychology of accurate intuition involves no magic. Perhaps the best short statement of it is by the great Herbert Simon, who studied chess masters and showed that after thousands of hours of practice they come to see the pieces on the board differently from the rest of us. The situation has provided a cue; this cue has given the expert access to information stored in memory, and the information provides the answer. Intuition is nothing more and nothing less than recognition.” Or may be not.

@SachinChavan some great points you make about individual journeys and our different angles of approaching the same music. I will try and not let it get to my head, you saying I have a musician"s bent of mind, though my expertise of playing music is limited to maybe not more than 3 chords on a guitar.
My little brain can fathom the "thousands of hour of practice" and seeing the "pieces of board differently than us" and the rest (and I do agree with the author) is great food for thought.