Amp + Floorstander Recommendations. Budget Rs.2L

[Berlyassocial]

IMO, what's required is humility. To understand that our ears aren't perfect and that measurements can help aid our pursuit of quality sound.

Very true. Thats how it should be.

 

[mpasanthosh]

My best advice to you is to first understand what needs an upgrade.

Let me elaborate

The vast majority of audiophiles never hear their currently owned system to their full potential. Why..? Because they don't have the means to understand or analyze what they really hear when sitting in their room at their listening position.

The solution to understand what you hear is a measurement microphone like a minidsp umik 1 and a computer. This is singlehandedly the best investment you can do if you are an Audiophile because it gives you the power to analyze what you are hearing at your listening spot. Every time you change a room or equipment you can measure how it affects the sound throughout your Audiophile life.

You can have several lac worth of a system in your room and have been listening to terrible sound for years before you sell it and move on to another system thinking "ive used the previous system for a long time and I've explored its performance". WRONG..!

There is a deceiving reason behind why this is happening which most companies will never tell you nor want you to know.

The measurements you see of a speaker you buy were taken in an anechoic chamber or on an infinite baffle if it is an individual driver.
The sound you are hearing in your suboptimal listening room which has asymmetric furniture, windows, doors is entirely different than the official specs.

let me give you a real-life example I encountered

take a good look at this system.
remember to keep that published frequency response of the speakers in mind.

View attachment 56258



View attachment 56259

ANECHOIC FREQUENCY RESPONSE OF AMATI FUTURA FROM STEREOPHILE WEBSITE
View attachment 56260


speakers are not visible in the first photo but it's situated in both sides which were SONUS FABER AMATI FUTURA.
one entire room was only dedicated to audio with an extensive amount of sound-absorbing panels and diffusers and bass traps symmetrically placed on all sides. there was no furniture except a listening chair and a table.

the price breakdown of equipment.

sonus faber amati futura - 27.1 lac INR
Genus Aries Cerat integrated amp- 15.5 lac INR
Genus kassandra dac- 20.7 lac INR

I'm not even gonna get into the streamer ,cd player , speaker cable ,interconnects, grounding box for speaker and all that. it was priced at a similar ratio. but you get the idea.

so looking at it, any audiophile would consider this as one of the top-tier most desirable audio systems you can have and expect the resultant sound to be nothing short of perfect. Right..?

you wanna see what we saw when we measured it with a measurement mic at the listening spot..? keep your tissue papers ready to wipe off the tears.
View attachment 56261

WHAT DO YOU THINK...?
well as they say the truth is always ugly.
go and compared the in-room response to the published response. are they any similar..?
so this was the sound signature he was getting from a multimillion rupee system at his listening spot. A sound output filled with nonlinearities, resonances, cancelations, and reverberations. do you think this will sound good to anyone regardless of being subjectivist or objectivist...?

If you think "oh this is not the case in my room and that guy didn't know how to set up his system", then by most probability you are wrong because sound waves are not something under your control and it interacts with everything in the room and can be extremely unpredictable. I'm telling this from the experience of measuring a lot of seemingly perfect dedicated audio rooms like this one here.

it made me wonder what is the use of all this running behind upgrades if you never qualitatively measured and understood what you were hearing all this while.

so readers what did you learn from this.?
you can keep running behind upgrades all your life and never be satisfied unless you scientifically understand what you are hearing.
there is always a lot more unexplored potential in your current setup waiting to be discovered like a sunken ship filled with gold.

once you have that power to measure you can correct this sound by passive methods like positioning the speakers or positioning furniture, carpets, and remeasuring to assure that what you hear is acceptable. the best part is that this costs close to nothing compared to what people shell out for upgrades. The only cost involved is the price of the mic.


So my advice to you is to keep your amplifier for now.
Yes, your speakers might need an upgrade as bookshelves are generally limited for the bass they can produce. so get or build a new set of speakers which can produce sound in a linear manner.

then get a measurement mic and measure what you hear at your listening spot. then experiment with speaker positions and furniture to get a reasonable sound signature.

if you want to further fine-tune the output do room correction using a parametric EQ on a windows computer (computer has to be the source always) OR get a minidsp room correction module and correct using it if your source is a cd or vinyl.

Now it's time for you to analyze the information and decide your strategy.
I wish you all the best.
Happy listening

Agree with your facts , I have tried PEq trying to achieve a full flat response the system sounded dull and lifeless.

Measuring and optimizing a system will help for sure with additional processing, personally any peak of dip beyond 3db is better left untouched in DSP. Too much processing makes it sterile and some how I don't find it comfortable, I use 32 band PEq specific to every single speaker with varied Q Factor derived from REW and each driver has its own channel for amplification, running with active crossovers.

Though I would not make it a goal to achieve manufacturers frequency response in my listening room.

Would love it the way I like to listen music to.
Back in those people used equalisers to perform EQ correction. Some time it is the content that is dull and lifeless and you voluntarily use EQ to make up for it .

The right size speaker for the right room size help a lot.

My target would be to not meet a manufactures frequency response, but to indeed have it adjusted to my personal taste, preference and liking. I have heard full flat response and tried various house curves never liked it much.

Used processing to a minimal extent and it does wonders.
REW will aid in proper speaker positing, treatment etc and it is worthwhile investing in UMIK-1.

 

[Berlyassocial]

Agree with your facts , I have tried PEq trying to achieve a full flat response the system sounded dull and lifeless.

Measuring and optimizing a system will help for sure with additional processing, personally any peak of dip beyond 3db is better left untouched in DSP. Too much processing makes it sterile and some how I don't find it comfortable, I use 32 band PEq specific to every single speaker with varied Q Factor derived from REW and each driver has its own channel for amplification, running with active crossovers.
.

I keep PEQ only for fine tuning and never correct cancellations with it. Speaker positioning, furniture placement and adjusting listening position caters for majority of room correction when it comes to home listening. And that is what makes the major difference.

Another thing is try not to use banded EQ because when you adjust a band a particular range of frequencies go up which makes it sound unnatural.

EqualizerAPO is a very good PEQ i use for myself. Only caveat is that you will have to export filters as a text file which can be done from REW itself.

Never correct speaker physical limitations with PEQ as it will only increase distortion. In my experience PEQ sounds better when implemented as one filter for both channels included. Dont make up for room asymmetry with PEQ. If you use PEQ correctly it can sound very well.

Another thing when using PEQ is that you have to consider how much headroom you have from your amplifier and aswell how much headroom you have for excursion of your drivers. If you don't consider these then it can lead into muddiness, clipping and distortion aswell.

These undesired characteristics are a result of wrong implentation of PEQ.

Ultimately if there is muddiness it will be for sure reflected in measurements with REW with the PEQ in place.
Every charecterstic of sound we hear is a function of frequency which is a measurable parameter.

Another thing is that dont be hellbent on making a frequency response flat. This is where subjectivity comes into play. There is nothing wrong in saying "i like my system to have a bit more bass than treble." It varies from people to people. I myself keep mids and bass around 3db above highs and i dont have any problem admitting that.

So in simple words PEQ is like a garnish which you add to a carefully cooked dish. If you dont cook the dish with the right ingredients in the right way, the garnish is not gonna save the day and blaming the garnish for the dish being bland is not a sensible thing to do.

Happy listening.

 

[DB1989]

I keep PEQ only for fine tuning and never correct cancellations with it. Speaker positioning, furniture placement and adjusting listening position caters for majority of room correction when it comes to home listening. And that is what makes the major difference.

Another thing is try not to use banded EQ because when you adjust a band a particular range of frequencies go up which makes it sound unnatural.

EqualizerAPO is a very good PEQ i use for myself. Only caveat is that you will have to export filters as a text file which can be done from REW itself.

Never correct speaker physical limitations with PEQ as it will only increase distortion. In my experience PEQ sounds better when implemented as one filter for both channels included. Dont make up for room asymmetry with PEQ. If you use PEQ correctly it can sound very well.

Another thing when using PEQ is that you have to consider how much headroom you have from your amplifier and aswell how much headroom you have for excursion of your drivers. If you don't consider these then it can lead into muddiness, clipping and distortion aswell.

These undesired characteristics are a result of wrong implentation of PEQ.

Ultimately if there is muddiness it will be for sure reflected in measurements with REW with the PEQ in place.
Every charecterstic of sound we hear is a function of frequency which is a measurable parameter.

Another thing is that dont be hellbent on making a frequency response flat. This is where subjectivity comes into play. There is nothing wrong in saying "i like my system to have a bit more bass than treble." It varies from people to people. I myself keep mids and bass around 3db above highs and i dont have any problem admitting that.

So in simple words PEQ is like a garnish which you add to a carefully cooked dish. If you dont cook the dish with the right ingredients in the right way, the garnish is not gonna save the day and blaming the garnish for the dish being bland is not a sensible thing to do.

Happy listening.

Well said. I don't use a PEQ or any other room correction software such as Audyssey but using measurements (Umik-1+REW), I've managed to bring quite a bit of linearity to my speakers response solely through positioning and a bit of room treatment.

However, there are some peaks and troughs in the sub100 hz region which need to be sorted out by employing a second sub i guess.

After that, perhaps a MiniDSP 2x4HD w/ Dirac in due time.

 

[Berlyassocial]

Well said. I don't use a PEQ or any other room correction software such as Audyssey but using measurements (Umik-1+REW), I've managed to bring quite a bit of linearity to my speakers response solely through positioning and a bit of room treatment. Next plunge maybe MiniDSP 2x4HD w/ Dirac in due time i guess.

Before you invest in room correction hardware try EequalizerAPO to have a taste of it. If your sound is already resonably linear may be you wont even need to use PEQ. So try equalizer APO with filters in place and listen in an abx testing manner. If you dont find much audible change you might well save that money which was supposed to be spend on Dirac live.

 

[DB1989]

Well said. I don't use a PEQ or any other room correction software such as Audyssey but using measurements (Umik-1+REW), I've managed to bring quite a bit of linearity to my speakers response solely through positioning and a bit of room treatment.

However, there are some peaks and troughs in the sub100 hz region which need to be sorted out by employing a second sub i guess.

After that, perhaps a MiniDSP 2x4HD w/ Dirac in due time.

Before you invest in room correction hardware try EequalizerAPO to have a taste of it. If your sound is already resonably linear may be you wont even need to use PEQ. So try equalizer APO with filters in place and listen in an abx testing manner. If you dont find much audible change you might well save that money which was supposed to be spend on Dirac live.

A second sub perhaps to sort out the sub-100hz region since i'm only employing one at the moment. I don't think a PEQ would suffice, would it?

 

[Berlyassocial]

A second sub perhaps to sort out the sub-100hz region since i'm only emplying one at the moment. I don't think a PEQ would suffice,

I believe there are ways to apply separate filters in eq APO for subwoofer. It might be just about modifying the text in config file. But as i have never used sub with Equalizer APO i cannot guide you at the moment. But i will try to find if it is possible.

But after all PC has to be the source of audio for EQ APO to be implemented. Otherwise as you said minidsp hardware is the way to go.

again as i always say keep PEQ only for fine tuning. Especially for Subwoofer integration it is mainly about crossing frequencies, phase correction, room modes and placement of the subs.

 

[DB1989]

I believe there are ways to apply separate filters in eq APO for subwoofer. It might be just about modifying the text in config file. But as i have never used sub with Equalizer APO i cannot guide you at the moment. But i will try to find if it is possible.

But after all PC has to be the source of audio for EQ APO to be implemented. Otherwise as you said minidsp hardware is the way to go.

again as i always say keep PEQ only for fine tuning. Especially for Subwoofer integration it is mainly about crossing frequencies, phase correction, room modes and placement of the subs.

>90% of my music consumption is through my PC. Never dabbled into EQ but the prospect of being able to apply it without having to resport to a MiniDSP has my interest piqued! Any guidance in this regard would be much appreciated!

 

[Berlyassocial]

However, there are some peaks and troughs in the sub100 hz region which need to be sorted out by employing a second sub i guess.

After that, perhaps a MiniDSP 2x4HD w/ Dirac in due time.

Somehow i didnt notice the part where you say you have peaks in sub100hz range.

Most probable reasons for this can be
* floor and ceiling reflection
*back wall reflection
*random reflections not decaying within 450milliseconds

The peaks below 100hz is particularly a challenge to deal with sound absorbers. The only solution might be hemholtz resonater which are not at all practical in a home listening scenerio because they are very cumbersome.

Back wall, floor, ceiling reflection can be a major issue what you see as peaks or depressions in the 70 to 150 hz region.
I have the same issue in my listening room to an extent. This issue was mostly reduced when i moved my listening chair away from the backwall and more towards the middle of the room. But this inturn reduced the bass extension a little bit.

Peaks in the sub100hz region can also be result of delayed decay. Any frequencies not decaying within 300ms is noticeable for human ears and anything not decaying in atleast 450ms can be a bit problematic. This can be checked in the waterfall diagram or spectrogram in the REW tabs. Unfortunately there is nothing much practical things you can do about it. Having some thick cushioned fabric furniture like bed or sofa might help a little bit. But you wont be able to eliminate them especially the ones below 70hz. So learn to live with it. Getting a second sub is probably going to worsen it as it will be more bass energy hanging around in the confined space of your room.

I hope it shines some light into the scenario.

Following is the the current waterfall diagram and spectrogram of my room where you can see the same decay issues in my room as you may have in the sub 100hz in your room.

 

[Berlyassocial]

>90% of my music consumption is through my PC. Never dabbled into EQ but the prospect of being able to apply it without having to resport to a MiniDSP has my interest piqued! Any guidance in this regard would be much appreciated!

I will look into how to setup the config file for subwoofer output and will try to help you.

 

[DB1989]

Somehow i didnt notice the part where you say you have peaks in sub100hz range.

Most probable reasons for this can be
* floor and ceiling reflection
*back wall reflection
*random reflections not decaying within 450milliseconds

The peaks below 100hz is particularly a challenge to deal with sound absorbers. The only solution might be hemholtz resonater which are not at all practical in a home listening scenerio because they are very cumbersome.

Back wall, floor, ceiling reflection can be a major issue what you see as peaks or depressions in the 70 to 150 hz region.
I have the same issue in my listening room to an extent. This issue was mostly reduced when i moved my listening chair away from the backwall and more towards the middle of the room. But this inturn reduced the bass extension a little bit.

Peaks in the sub100hz region can also be result of delayed decay. Any frequencies not decaying within 300ms is noticeable for human ears and anything not decaying in atleast 450ms can be a bit problematic. This can be checked in the waterfall diagram or spectrogram in the REW tabs. Unfortunately there is nothing much practical things you can do about it. Having some thick cushioned fabric furniture like bed or sofa might help a little bit. But you wont be able to eliminate them especially the ones below 70hz. So learn to live with it. Getting a second sub is probably going to worsen it as it will be more bass energy hanging around in the confined space of your room.

I hope it shines some light into the scenario.

Following is the the current waterfall diagram and spectrogram of my room where you can see the same decay issues in my room as you may have in the sub 100hz in your room.View attachment 56349View attachment 56350

This really clears things up a lot! My seating position is also bang in the centre of the room i.e. far away from all walls and especially the backwall. Coincidentally, i was running some measurements and i was wondering how to understand how the waterfall measaurements affected the sound. Much Grateful!

 

[liverpool_for_life]

The peaks below 100hz is particularly a challenge to deal with sound absorbers. The only solution might be hemholtz resonater which are not at all practical in a home listening scenerio because they are very cumbersome.

Couple of solutions for dealing with peaks below 100 Hz:

1. If the peak is a result of a room mode, add a subwoofer along the dimension of the room whose mode it is.
2. PEQ filters.

Peaks in the sub100hz region can also be result of delayed decay.

You've got that backwards. It's the peaks that cause the decay time issues, because of the excess energy.

Getting a second sub is probably going to worsen it as it will be more bass energy hanging around in the confined space of your room.

Not necessarily. How a second subwoofer combines with the first in your room is a combination of various factors including your room dimensions, the relative placement of the two subs, where you listen and whether you've spent the time integrating the two to play nice together (delays, gains adjustment). Measurement here is critical to good results.

Following is the the current waterfall diagram and spectrogram of my room where you can see the same decay issues in my room as you may have in the sub 100hz in your room.

Correct. Please post your sub's in-room FR, as that is the root cause of the issues. The decay issues are merely the symptoms. Fix the FR and the decay will take care of itself.

Mods: This discussion is getting more and more OT, so do consider spinning this off into a separate thread.

 

[Berlyassocial]

Couple of solutions for dealing with peaks below 100 Hz:

1. If the peak is a result of a room mode, add a subwoofer along the dimension of the room whose mode it is.
2. PEQ filters.

I didnt know there is a possibility of using subs this way. As i was telling my experience with subs are very limited.

You've got that backwards. It's the peaks that cause the decay time issues, because of the excess energy.

Yes the analogy might have been a bit misleading.

Not necessarily. How a second subwoofer combines with the first in your room is a combination of various factors including your room dimensions, the relative placement of the two subs, where you listen and whether you've spent the time integrating the two to play nice together (delays, gains adjustment). Measurement here is critical to good results

This is a valuable feedback. But i hope if there is a way to fix the issue without buying extra gear that would be much better. I try to follow the concept of more result with less money spend wherever its feasible. Maybe you can help more in fixing the sub integration.

.



Correct. Please post your sub's in-room FR, as that is the root cause of the issues. The decay issues are merely the symptoms. Fix the FR and the decay will take care of itself.

Mods: This discussion is getting more and more OT

Yes it is getting outside the scope of original post.