Amp upgrade with Canton speakers: Feasibility study

[Asit]

Hi dinyaar, I know it is not about winning or losing. That was my attempt at a poor joke. Thanks very much for describing your experimental set-up of biamping. Actually as I mentioned in my post #14 in this thread, I read about such things in the Arcam users' forums. But your experiment enlightens us with the comparison between a pre/power configuration (of an Arcam integrated and an Arcam power amp) and the bi-amped configuration between the two.

Particleman, it's no interruption at all. Please join in the discussion as much as possible. Although this thread has originated out of my need to upgrade my amp, and your last post with a particular query has direct relevance to that search, but in addition, I like to look at the thread as a general education and discussion of issues connected with amps.

 

[Asit]

Hi Cranky and Venkat (if you are following this thread),

What are the Audire options. I looked at their website and was not sure about the compatibility with the multi-driver speakers. Also the different options mentioned by Cranky were not clear to me. Can you guys enlighten me also on the prices of the different options?

Hi folks familiar with the Odyssey Stratos,

I was reading user reviews of the Stratos power amp? First, what is the difference with the Khartago? Then what are the matching pre-amps they go well with? And please, some ballpark prices, that would really help me.

The thing I picked up from the users' reviews is that everybody is mentioning about very long (even upto 500h) break-in periods. Is that true? That would be a bit annoying. Everybody is all praise for a guy by the name Klaus (or Claus?).

Dinyaar, my speakers are sweet sounding and hence I may be better of with as neutral an amp as possible (I am addressing you because you brought up this issue). Cranky has promised a visit to my place next time he comes to Kolkata. I gather it can be as early as April. He would probably understand the nature of them better. I am only hoping he would not suggest an immediate upgrade of the speakers, because I will be broke after the amp upgrade.

 

[dinyaar]

@Dinyaar: (Asit, I am sorry to interrupt your conversation...) I am most grateful to you for posting this, as the pairing of Arcam A series with P series power amp is something I was wondering about too. I will probably do it after a year or so but I was not sure what the benefit would be. However your post has alleviated all doubt and has explained very beautifully what to expect and how to go about it. May I ask which power amp it was that you tried? Thanks again. And yes, I too hope to change my speaker cables soon if I can find one cheaply that matches the Chord Cobra I/C...

Hi Particleman,
It was the older P35 power amp which outputs 100 WPC which is now replaced by the P38. I had read that this is the clear upgrade path arcam suggests but wanted to hear it for myself. The only thing one should consider is the cost angle as the power amp is about 75 K so an A38/P38 will cost about 1.8 L plus the additional pair if speaker cables. Particleman i too have been reading about how well the chord pairs with arcam gear but that may not particularly work well with an Arcam /MA set up. I am partial to Kimber /transparent. Please tell me the cables u are currently using? Ur impressions on the set up? As i doubt ur set up will lack bite or any life as the MA tweeter is anything but dull. I love a kimber timber as a cheap IC. Tried them on many set ups , including Arcams and the results are good. Lots of used cables float around and u will surely get them at sensible rates. I remember trying a chord chameleon and it really makes the trebles 'zing' and over pronounced. It will work for a set up that requires a kick up the back side but not otherwise. The cobra too(green cable?) i had tried but now i cant remember the sound.
Try many cables, as many as u can. I can myself lend u a few to try. VDH/KIMBER/TRANSPARENT/SUPRA. Mentioned VDH as that can work the reverse of a chord. Can kill some overzealous treble and enhance bass. I really like supra and Jenteck as cheap cables. I have no clue of current pricing at lakozy or AVI on both cables mentioned but am basically referring to the costs i incurred. Jeetendra there is a place at Lamington road called Spectra Connectronics. It is a small Co making all kinds of cables/connectors etc and also imports cables from Bulk mfgrs. U will get belden and the likes for cheap prices and making cables is childs play and works out as a super VFM alternative.

Asit naturally u will judge ur amp with ur cantons, as u should but please buy something that will not only drive ur cantons but also the speakers u may have to buy in case the cantons give up. As ur cantons may sing even with a small 40W but that will restrict ur speaker options later.

Rgds

 

[odyssey]

Hi Cranky and Venkat (if you are following this thread),

What are the Audire options. I looked at their website and was not sure about the compatibility with the multi-driver speakers. Also the different options mentioned by Cranky were not clear to me. Can you guys enlighten me also on the prices of the different options?

Hi folks familiar with the Odyssey Stratos,

I was reading user reviews of the Stratos power amp? First, what is the difference with the Khartago? Then what are the matching pre-amps they go well with? And please, some ballpark prices, that would really help me.

The thing I picked up from the users' reviews is that everybody is mentioning about very long (even upto 500h) break-in periods. Is that true? That would be a bit annoying. Everybody is all praise for a guy by the name Klaus (or Claus?).

Dinyaar, my speakers are sweet sounding and hence I may be better of with as neutral an amp as possible (I am addressing you because you brought up this issue). Cranky has promised a visit to my place next time he comes to Kolkata. I gather it can be as early as April. He would probably understand the nature of them better. I am only hoping he would not suggest an immediate upgrade of the speakers, because I will be broke after the amp upgrade.

Hi Asit
I will no doubt be biased about the Odyssey line, so I will leave it to others to comment on how they sound/perform . The person on this forum who is most familiar might be Square_wave...
Klaus Bunge is the owner of Odyssey audio in the US. He is was the distributor for Symphonic Line in the past and has worked with Rolf Gemin (of Symphonic Line). Odyssey audio amps are close adaptations of this German Ultra high end brand Symphonic Line. The Odyssey amps are known for their musicality and are known to be very slight on the slight warm side of neutral. Dinyaar in his previous thread mentioned Bryston/Odyssey in this thread but actually they dont sound that similar at all (I think Dinyaar was jus trying to say SS vs tube...).
Odyssey amps have been selling primarily in the US and all through word of mouth. There is no advertisement for these amps in any print fashion. There are close to 4000 preamps/amps in circulation, so that should speak for itself. The Khartago is the starting line of the Odyssey amplifiers and then moves onto the Stratos and so on. The Khartago is rated at 110W@8 ohms. The Stratos goes up from about 150W @8 ohms. Every amp can be custom biased. Build quality is excellent and only the top of the line parts are used, Groneberg wiring inside, top line WBT binding posts, etc. The power supply section is very important for any power amp and this can be customized/upgraded as well. The break in periods for this amp are not that different from any amp that has a good power supply section with enough memory/capacitance. For the basic versions a good 150 to 200 hours are sufficient and that improvements over that are very incremental. The phrase that is commonly used to describe the Odyssey amp is "musical involvement".

As for budget pres - there is a passive pre from Odyssey called the Etesian which a couple of our customers are using with very good results. However, you can use this only when you have sufficient volume without any attenuation in the path, in this case given your speakers, I dont think this is a problem.

cheers
Sridhar

 

[moktan]

Hi,


Bought an Arcam A38 for my niece(yes the same amp which What HIFI has rated mediocre)
Rgds

sorry to detract from the tenor of this thread..but i just wanted to slip in a very elemental query..there are quite a few of us who take the reviews given in what HIFI etc as indicators around which we build our opinion of components that we should focus on to 'buy' 'research' or 'demo'...now is there any other Mantra which allows us to make such intelligent choices that go against the grain of such 'journalistic' wisdom ...
given the level of your experience in these matters one cannot say that such 'happy' choices were serendipitous ones..so you definitely knew very well what you were leading your niece on to in terms of the overall well being of her purchase...
asit ji please pardon me for intruding on the very high and intriguing levels of discussion that is being currently undertaken in this thread..

 

[Asit]

Were you expecting otherwise?

Well, I was expecting that you would fall in love with my speakers so much that you would like to go for an exchange with your Usher Be-718's.

Thanks a lot for the details. Would wait for the prices. If there is any difficulty, you can always PM me. The Argus is a pre/power combo I believe.

Now, are you planning an audition of the Solaris or any other one? Where?

Hi Moktan, glad that you dropped in with your lines. The what Hi Fi reviews are not binding, you know. Members of the What Hi Fi forum also question many of these reviews if you happen to visit that forum. If you happen to pay a lot of attention to magazine reviews, please take a look also athe following site:
Review of Arcam FMJ A38, Review Arcam FMJ A38
This site gives gives you 5 expert reviews and they all praise the same amp very highly. Some of them even say that it may become a classic.

These reviews can at best work as a guide. The best is to hear the equipments in question oneself and decide.

The experiment dinyaar describes is meant for an upgrade to even better sound. As his earlier posts indicate, he has already liked the Arcam FMJ A 38 amp very much. But he is used to even better sound and given that there are many better gears available (of course for a lot more money), he was doing the experiment to test out one of the ways to upgrade (in case of Arcam integrated amps) to an even better sound. While doing that, I guess he was also trying to gauge the value of the incremental benefits in terms of the money spent. And that's why he was wondering if it would be prudent to upgrade in this bi-amping way or are there better ways to upgrade. Dinyaar also pointed out in what areas the improvements were significant when the integrated was bi-amped with the power amp.

I am sorry you find the discussions intriguing. Unfortunately, I value my hard earned money and would like to understand a bit about the possibilities without offending other people and I hope I am not offending anybody with this thread.

 

[thevortex]

sorry to detract from the tenor of this thread..but i just wanted to slip in a very elemental query..there are quite a few of us who take the reviews given in what HIFI etc as indicators around which we build our opinion of components that we should focus on to 'buy' 'research' or 'demo'...now is there any other Mantra which allows us to make such intelligent choices that go against the grain of such 'journalistic' wisdom ...
given the level of your experience in these matters one cannot say that such 'happy' choices were serendipitous ones..so you definitely knew very well what you were leading your niece on to in terms of the overall well being of her purchase...
asit ji please pardon me for intruding on the very high and intriguing levels of discussion that is being currently undertaken in this thread..

Fair question Moktan, but without deviating from the core of this thread myself let me point out that there are absolutely no absolutes when it comes to Hifi. What is best depends on you, your taste of music, your penchant for decibels and frequencies and even your mood!

I have personally experienced examples where WhatHiFi's gloriously reviewed products have failed to impress me and vice versa. It is totally upto you, really. Consider the reviews as just opinions. The measurements, if provided though, can certainly say something about the speakers. But even then we must be mindful of the fact that the listening environment as well as the paired equipment is most probably different from the ones we are going to use.

So, take all these reviews and opinions with not just a pinch but with generous doses of salt. Hope this helps.

 

[dinyaar]

sorry to detract from the tenor of this thread..but i just wanted to slip in a very elemental query..there are quite a few of us who take the reviews given in what HIFI etc as indicators around which we build our opinion of components that we should focus on to 'buy' 'research' or 'demo'...now is there any other Mantra which allows us to make such intelligent choices that go against the grain of such 'journalistic' wisdom ...
given the level of your experience in these matters one cannot say that such 'happy' choices were serendipitous ones..so you definitely knew very well what you were leading your niece on to in terms of the overall well being of her purchase...
asit ji please pardon me for intruding on the very high and intriguing levels of discussion that is being currently undertaken in this thread..

Hi Moktan,

Yes i do rate a few reviewers and would read with interest if they had something negative to say about products that i am familiar with. See its not about bashing What HIFI or AV MAV or Stereophile/AS or whatever its about listening to a product with ur gear in ur room and taking a call. We all have different tastes.
These are not happy choices at all. Also when a dealer loans u amps (as many as i want as long as i fetch them and drop them in)to take home for extended auditions one is in a position to make a better choice. Am familiar with Arcam for ages , have heard the A32 extensively and when the set up of my neice was to be upgraded i could not think of a better amp. Superb, no fuss build and reliable with a detailed sound which is not in your face.
Moktan there is no 'one size fits all' in HIFI and these are just personal opinions while WHF has voiced 'their' opinion. Neither is gospel and shouldn't be treated as the final word.
Further regarding WHF i dont agree at all with some of their repeated fantastic reviews of some brands. It could cloud a persons mind as an average first time buyer will definately give a lot of weight to what he/she reads from reputed HIFI publications and may even 'start' liking the recommended component and the way it sounds. A few issues earlier they had reviewed (V V favourably) a plinius integrated 9200 and also mentioned how close the amp came to their "reference " Bryston 300 wpc combo which beat it only marginally!!!!!!!!! Should i feel that since i own that combo (that is their reference) i have the ultimate SS amplifier? Frankly the two amps are very different sounding with different voicing. The only way is to hear the damn combo or component in your house and take a call.
RGDS
Rgds

 

[arj]

Asit Sir...What happened next ?

 

[Asit]

Asit Sir...What happened next ?

Please, please, drop the "ji", "sir" etc. It makes me terribly uncomfortable.

Nothing much happened next. Past days have kept me very busy with a lot of things some of which I absolutely hate, for example, administrative meetings.

I also could not visit Vasu's place for a better Cadence VA-1 audition, but I am sure the invitation stands and I WILL make it.

Meanwhile, I have done some thinking, and I can briefly put it down in words.

I want to take the advice in this thread that small and lateral upgrades are a no-no, and while settling on an amp I should keep in mind that my highly sensitive Canton speakers are not going to last for ever.

Integrated amps are no fuss objects and would suit me fine. Keeping in mind the budget, I definitely cannot consider products like the Leben Cs600 and the Red Wine Audio integrateds. Perhaps even the Leben CS300 is ruled out (since the US price is above USD 2500, according to Sridhar and would then translate to about 1.5L, way above my ability).

I can consider SS integrateds like the Arcan FMJ A38, YBA Design YA201 etc and the tube/hybrid integrateds like the Cayin A-88T, Prima Luna Prologue 2 etc. Let us see whatever happened to dinyaar's A/B with these two with his home gear. Dinyaar, are you there?

Now regarding pre/power, the options are the Quad 99/909 combo, although dinyaar's finding regarding the lack QC worries me. The other option that I am considering quite seriously are the power amps Jaton Operetta and Odyssey Stratos with the cap upgrade. Obviously these are only power amps and I need some pre to go with. Sridhar has already suggested the Odyssey Etesian (passive pre) which matches well with the Stratos. Square-wave suggested the Promitheus Audio tvc passive pres. These tvc's are price-wise quite affordable and they have a solid support base among a lot of niche users. I am considering the passive option, because with the Operetta and also the Stratos, I will not be able to afford a matching decent active pre, unless the Jaton pre (to appear shortly) is priced reasonably.

Cranky has also suggested the Audire Argus pre and power which suit multi-driver speakers. I am still awaiting the prices of these from Cranky. Previously neo also suggested the Audire as a general suggestion.

I have a question for the Stratos users (or anybody knowledgeable about these amps). Odyssey Audio suggests to keep these amps powered on 24x7, I suppose to keep the huge capacitor (120 micro Farad in case of the cap upgrade) fully charged. Now with the power situation in India, how do people manage to keep them on all the time?

These basically are my options. I have no idea how I am going to audition most of these, because in Kolkata there is no such possibility. at least at the moment. I do not think SKS Kolkata is going to get the Arcams unless I or somebody else orders them.

As I have said before, I am not very fussy. I need something reliable and significantly better than what I already have. Arcam with 5 year warranty and the Odyssey Audio with 20 years warranty give some assurance of reliability, on paper. I may have to deviate from the time-tested method of auditioning and buy something which looks reasonable from ALL the inputs and live with it.

 

[dinyaar]

Hi Asit,(look no ji or sir or whatever!!!)
Am very much there. The quad that played up was delivered to us yesterday and he says it was 'only' a resistor and that its a 'common' fault. Now Audionut wants to sell the quad monos as he does not like them so am trying to help out.
Actually i have been up to quite a lot.Trying/making cables and just really experimenting in my free time( and i have quite a bit now, u see i am a poor stock broker in tough times)
Regarding my A/B with primaluna and cayin, the prima luna never came from sgpore as my wife just got ridiculous prices and finally ran out of patience and time. I have almost confirmed for a used cayin for my dad in law and am awaiting it. Have been hearing a hell of 'tubes' in various set ups and have once again decided its not yet 'tube time' for me. At least not entirely. I am eagerly awaiting the accuphase integrateds for a demo. I really loved an old E308 that i had heard and the new E350 is just that with a few more gizmos. I would love to own one if i feel the pricing is fair.
Asit would u be interested in a Quad pre, and a pair of 909 monos if the entire combo was offered at about 1.25 and is about 3/4 months used? I have not asked u earlier as i doubt u will ever need 300 Wpc @ 8ohms!!!!! I think the combo new is close to 1.75L but i frankly dont like it.
Hope u get something u really like soon.
Rgds

 

[Asit]

Hi Asit,(look no ji or sir or whatever!!!)
Am very much there. The quad that played up was delivered to us yesterday and he says it was 'only' a resistor and that its a 'common' fault. Now Audionut wants to sell the quad monos as he does not like them so am trying to help out.
Actually i have been up to quite a lot.Trying/making cables and just really experimenting in my free time( and i have quite a bit now, u see i am a poor stock broker in tough times)
Regarding my A/B with primaluna and cayin, the prima luna never came from sgpore as my wife just got ridiculous prices and finally ran out of patience and time. I have almost confirmed for a used cayin for my dad in law and am awaiting it. Have been hearing a hell of 'tubes' in various set ups and have once again decided its not yet 'tube time' for me. At least not entirely. I am eagerly awaiting the accuphase integrateds for a demo. I really loved an old E308 that i had heard and the new E350 is just that with a few more gizmos. I would love to own one if i feel the pricing is fair.
Asit would u be interested in a Quad pre, and a pair of 909 monos if the entire combo was offered at about 1.25 and is about 3/4 months used? I have not asked u earlier as i doubt u will ever need 300 Wpc @ 8ohms!!!!! I think the combo new is close to 1.75L but i frankly dont like it.
Hope u get something u really like soon.
Rgds

Sorry dinyaar for the late response. Once in a while, free time is good, I can swear by it.

Well, I may perhaps not be interested in the quad monoblocks because of a variety of reasons, although I like the power amp. Firstly, I do not need such a high powered system (I know more power is good even though it's not put to use), but 300@8 is simply too much. Secondly, for significantly less money (around a Lakh) I can get the 99/909 pre/stereo-power combo (new and local store) which is more than enough for me. Thirdly, although I live in a largish apartment (by Kolkata standards), there is space problem and currently I am putting up my stereo equipments not in an ideal way, as a result dual monos are not the ideal solution for me.

Let us know about the results of the Accuphase E-350 audition and also how you liked the Cayin amp. BTW, how expensive are the Accuphase amps?

Every passing day, I am leaning more towards the Stratos and a passive pre (Etesian or promitheus audio tvc).

In any case, sincere thanks for the proposal and also for dropping the 'ji'.

 

[arj]

I am eagerly awaiting the accuphase integrateds for a demo. I really loved an old E308 that i had heard and the new E350 is just that with a few more gizmos. I would love to own one if i feel the pricing is fair.

Cool Accuphase are often called the Mercedes of amps ! for their build smoothness and refinement. do update us on how the demo goes.

Asit do find out about the combo of Stratos with Passive pre you decide...from what i am hearing of other folks experience if there is a impedance mismatch the bass response really suffers. also with a passive pre, your source needs to have a good output power as well..Odyssey audio should be a good guide for that.

 

[dinyaar]

Hi Guys,
Asit it was just an offer as 'audionut' is pestering me to help him sell and as i mentioned earlier i dont like them but there are followers of these quads and the co has stopped making the monos i believe. U surely dont need so much power.
Arj i really love an accu amp. Problem is 10 yrs ago it seemed way too expensive and even today i am really pondering on that kind of outlay for a 100 WPC integrated. Problem is it is better built than anything i have seen(not just cosmetically but in every way) and always sounds fantastic. The simple 100 watter can handle most speakers and the 180W E450 is just mind blowing but too big a hole in the pocket in the present scenario. The class A amp i have never seen or heard and after hearing what it might be priced at i refused to even go and have a listen this evening. I am definately not shelling out that kind of money for a 30W class A amp even if its an accuphase.
Arj i want to simplify my set up. Hope to go with a top quality one box solution soon enough. Something thats about 100/120 W. The Bryston integrated is not an option i want to consider and i heard tons of amps recently(few tubes too). Got my price on the Bryston combo so kissed it goodbye and am using an Arcam demo FMJ till i decide. I find it musical and enjoyable and superbly priced and have no problem 'downgrading' as it appears but i want to be absolutely certain. The last two to audition are the accu & the sim I 7. Will surely update as soon as possible.
Will give u the actual international preices Asit. Its about 8200 USD for the E350 and 10400 USD for the E450 so god knows what the Indian pricing is. The Jap madels(100V) sell for much less but that is a headache i dont want to get into.
Rgds

 

[Asit]

Asit do find out about the combo of Stratos with Passive pre you decide...from what i am hearing of other folks experience if there is a impedance mismatch the bass response really suffers. also with a passive pre, your source needs to have a good output power as well..Odyssey audio should be a good guide for that.

Well, I cannot afford an active pre with the Stratos. If a passive does not work out, I have to settle for an integrated like the Arcam FMJ A38.

Now Sridhar in a previous mail has indicated that the Etesian works well with the Stratos. However (Sridhar, please do not get offended, I am just trying to learn as well as get the best solution within a budget), from my reading I find a TVC based passive pre solution should in principle be a better solution. I wrote to Nicholas of Promitheus Audio and he has said that any power amp having more than 1 KOhm of input impedance should work well with their TVC's. I am a bit confused about what to do.

Dinyaar, sometime ago I was trying to look into the baby of Accuphase integrated line (the E-250) and then quickly bounced away scared because of the price, but they seem to be really great. Would be interested to know the results of your audition.

 

[square_wave]

TVCs are very difficult to get right, compared to regular pres. There are just too many chances to slip up when designing a multi-tapped transformer with linear frequency response into all sorts of loads. The Core material and geometry, the winding wire and style, turns ratio and everything else are not easy to crack. A good pair of TVC transformers costs upward of $1000, and then there's switches and everything else - good switches will cost $200 plus. I wouldn't recommend it except for the very highest end products. At the entry level, you may be better served with a regular passive, or try Lyrita audio. They have some reasonably priced actives. Or used to be reasonable.

Remember a TVC will also load the source proportional to the impedance of the amp and the volume setting, so if your source does not behave well under changing loads (most sources exhibit slight changes in their frequency response under changing load, this is not detectable unless you change amps a lot, or use a TVC) you may have some problem with the timber changing with some settings of the volume control - but this will happen only at extremities and you may need golden ears to detect such changes. It's still something to keep in mind.

Hi Cranky,
With all due respect, I beg to differ on some points.

The Prometheus is a well known and respected brand in underground audio. They are direct to customer seller so they are not very expensive. This does not mean they are not well designed. Please hang around in the audio circle website for Prometheus audio and you can verify this with hundreds of users there.
The only issue is technical match with the amp/cd player that is going to be used. As Arj mentioned, this very important and deserve some home work. Once that is sorted out, it should work just fine. Recently a forum member on another forum checked the signature model against a 27k$ dartzeel preamp and the Prometheus did not feel out of place . That says something about the quality of the gear. Another friend of mine who use a MFA preamp costing upwards of 3k$ find the Prometheus quite nice. Comparing underground hi-end brands with mass market- boutique brands (price-wise) is not a very good idea.

 

[arj]

Remember a TVC will also load the source proportional to the impedance of the amp and the volume setting, so if your source does not behave well under changing loads (most sources exhibit slight changes in their frequency response under changing load, this is not detectable unless you change amps a lot, or use a TVC) you may have some problem with the timber changing with some settings of the volume control - but this will happen only at extremities and you may need golden ears to detect such changes. It's still something to keep in mind.

Cranky ..great post. Thanks for the info

 

[arj]

Asit, Cranky has mentioned another option...ie Virens (Lyrita audio) Tube pre amp. it is fantastic of its price from what I have of it. it focuses more on the music content and timbre rather than detail but i think that is something which falls into what you are looking for as well..do consider that option as well.
you could get in touch with Viren for info..he is also very approachable, knowledgeable and helpful

 

[arj]

Arj i really love an accu amp. Problem is 10 yrs ago it seemed way too expensive and even today i am really pondering on that kind of outlay for a 100 WPC integrated. Problem is it is better built than anything i have seen(not just cosmetically but in every way) and always sounds fantastic. The simple 100 watter can handle most speakers and the 180W E450 is just mind blowing but too big a hole in the pocket in the present scenario. The class A amp i have never seen or heard and after hearing what it might be priced at i refused to even go and have a listen this evening. I am definately not shelling out that kind of money for a 30W class A amp even if its an accuphase.
Arj i want to simplify my set up. Hope to go with a top quality one box solution soon enough. Something thats about 100/120 W. The Bryston integrated is not an option i want to consider and i heard tons of amps recently(few tubes too). Got my price on the Bryston combo so kissed it goodbye and am using an Arcam demo FMJ till i decide. I find it musical and enjoyable and superbly priced and have no problem 'downgrading' as it appears but i want to be absolutely certain. The last two to audition are the accu & the sim I 7. Will surely update as soon as possible.

accuphase is definitely expensive , especially the Class A ones. I have heard their Class A 20W power amp with Merlin Floorstanders and thought they were amazing...in fact thats why I ended up buying the Merlin bookshelves.

the other good Int amps that I can think of, which can be good value used are Conrad Johnson CA200 , Jeff Rowland concerto etc for that power.

 

[square_wave]

@S-W

You will notice I'm not talking about any specific brands here - I rarely comment on those. I only pointed to the principles of a TVC, and these are made on technical basis. I do not "hang around" on Audio Circle forums (which are, with all due respect, sponsored forums) to gain insight. But my budgets do not permit me to try all the gear and brands available, so my comments on brands will be restricted to those which I have specific experience of (one audition is a brief experience).

My remarks only pointed to the fact that there may be issues with mating a TVC to the rest of the gear, and the reasons for this go well beyond the simplistic nature of my post - I do not wish to confound by explaining, for example, impedance matching at various taps of the transformer. Whereas it is possible that XXX brand got it right and many people swear by it, I will not either agree or disagree if I do not have a specific experience of that product or brand.

At the end of the day a TVC is a transformer and a switch. Unfortunately a transformer is not a 'black box', its performance is dependent, and to a crucial degree, on the nature of the source and the nature of the load. No manufacturer of a TVC will dispute that. It is possible to make a load-invariant and source-invariant active preamp (for the most part, barring finer technical discussion). It is also possible, with some basic specs, to construct a passive pre that will perform basic duty for most amplifiers with wide-ranging input impedances. TVCs will be a lot tougher to get right.

It is of course, possible to get it right. But the knowledge of partnering equipment is more critical, and so is the exactness of the implementation. There is a lot of pixie dust around core materials and windings. Kilometers of turns of wire are not going to be easy to deal with whichever way you cut it. The cores are inherently lossy, and the magnetic fields are prone to interferences - these fields are essentially what transmit the energy through the core, and any problems here manifest themselves as distortion or hum.

Which is why I only recommend it for the top end of builds, or for customised implementation for a specific chain. As a guide, the S&B 102 was costing ~200 GBP 3 years ago, and that was before copper prices hit the roof. Per transformer. And a good Shallco would set you back another hundred, and there is casework. I'm talking component prices, which is what I would buy if I had to knock together something. Let alone brands and profit margins.

Lastly, the ear is very tolerant of distortion depending on the distortion profile. I don't make any conclusions on equipment by heresy, and neither should anyone else. I did not comment on this specific brand, and will not be drawn into a debate about it. I welcome any discussion on TVC as a concept, but in a separate thread - let's keep this one for Asit's chain.

I think we agree in principle about getting the technical things right before going the TVC way.
I agree with you that going DIY with hi-end parts which you suggest is the best way out. But I do not think Asit is ready for it yet. He needs the best branded solution with warranty for the money he is willing to spend.

If you take a hard-core diy guy who gives due importance to exactness of implementation and parts quality, he will use top end parts and implementation. He will never like any commercially available gear. I have a friend who is into hi-end diy and he hates anything commercial except for gear which are top of the line. Even at that level, he will find some fault because there is always room for improvement.
I was suggesting going the Prometheus way because some very experienced audiophiles who are used to hi-end and expensive actives are currently using it.I have heard only a MFA TVC and it thrashed the audionote active it replaced. The owner has heard the Prometheus and has high regards for it.

Of course it is upto Asit to decide.

Here is a thread where they discuss odyssey / Prometheus combo. Hope this helps.
http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=52559.0