Bi-wiring improvement in audio

sunilchus

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I have a Denon 510AE amp and Polk Tsi300 speakers.

I have seen lot of articles (here and elsewhere) that bi-wiring does not give benefits. I too did not see any benefit, but did it since I had enough extra cable. - the problem was I did not remove the connectors between the binding posts.

When I removed the connectors, there was a huge difference in audio clarity, in both the high's & low's. In some songs where there is good bass, my windows rattle, something which never happened before.

How is a 'huge difference' like this possible if bi-wiring is not supposed to give any benefits?
 
Hi,

Even I want to do biwiring for my wharf 9.5, but how to do that? Help in connections! Speaker connection actually done by installation guy

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2
 
The benefits of bi-wiring are entirely dependent on the design of the crossover. I for one have found in high end model's of Jamo, bi-wiring makes a huge difference but not so much in low end models.
 
I thought the Xover is circumvented with bi-wiring?

--G0bble

Yes however remember, bi = two. When the number of drivers connected to a crossover is not equal (as in the case of the Tsi300 where there is 1 tweeter and two woofers) the layout of the crossover determines the type of sound that will emerge post bi-wiring.
 
Yes however remember, bi = two. When the number of drivers connected to a crossover is not equal (as in the case of the Tsi300 where there is 1 tweeter and two woofers) the layout of the crossover determines the type of sound that will emerge post bi-wiring.

hmm.. ok. so what are the different types of layouts possible and what works best with bi-wiring?

--G
 
IMO, bi-wiring is useless unless you do bi-amping. Running two pairs of wires from single output terminal of amplifier channel to two drivers of one speaker will not gain anything unless two separate amplifier drive same source into two drivers.
 
hmm.. ok. so what are the different types of layouts possible and what works best with bi-wiring?

--G

Huge and complex question and pretty much drives the multidriver speaker industry.

But for the tsi300 I would not worry too much about it unless it's bi-amped. The drivers will not reveal that much a difference when bi-wired.

Did you have some other model in mind regarding the question?
 
Yes however remember, bi = two. When the number of drivers connected to a crossover is not equal (as in the case of the Tsi300 where there is 1 tweeter and two woofers) the layout of the crossover determines the type of sound that will emerge post bi-wiring.
I don't understand - what has the number of drivers and the x-over layout got to do with the effectiveness or not of bi-wiring? Yes bi = two and that simply means that a separate line feeds the highs [and mids as applicable] and a separate line feeds the lows.
 
But for the tsi300 I would not worry too much about it unless it's bi-amped. The drivers will not reveal that much a difference when bi-wired.
Read the first post. I quote:

When I removed the connectors, there was a huge difference in audio clarity, in both the high's & low's. In some songs where there is good bass, my windows rattle, something which never happened before.

How is a 'huge difference' like this possible if bi-wiring is not supposed to give any benefits?

Seems to me that the OP is reporting a "huge difference" with his Tsi300.
 
IMO, bi-wiring is useless unless you do bi-amping. Running two pairs of wires from single output terminal of amplifier channel to two drivers of one speaker will not gain anything unless two separate amplifier drive same source into two drivers.

That is exactly the point of this thread - everywhere people are saying it is nothing more than adding thickness to speaker wire, but I can see that is not true (of course it may be due to some peculiarity is speaker/amp).

In the last 1 yr (when I had not removed the connectors between the binding posts), my windows never rattled even at high volume, now the audio of a male singer with a deep voice even at low volume invariable makes my windows rattle.

OK, my windows are in bad shape :o, but the point is to show that the change is not my imagination.
 
IMO, bi-wiring is useless unless you do bi-amping. Running two pairs of wires from single output terminal of amplifier channel to two drivers of one speaker will not gain anything unless two separate amplifier drive same source into two drivers.

That is not true. I don't know about other systems, but all the hi-end systems that I came across are highly benefited by bi-wiring.

When I biwired my sonodyne setup I didn't notice any change in sound, but when I bi-wired my Quad 306 with Quad 11L classic, I noticed hell lot of difference in the entire spectrum of sound.

The most noticeable among all the changes is the tweeter. It gets smooth, laid back and more rounded. It effects the mids and lows also and they get better.
 
That is not true. I don't know about other systems, but all the hi-end systems that I came across are highly benefited by bi-wiring.

When I biwired my sonodyne setup I didn't notice any change in sound, but when I bi-wired my Quad 306 with Quad 11L classic, I noticed hell lot of difference in the entire spectrum of sound.

^ bingo.

It varies dramatically speaker to speaker how much of a difference is able to be derived. As you go up the chain in value, the equipment becomes more revealing of the components they're connected to.
 
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^ bingo.

It varies dramatically speaker to speaker how much of a difference is able to be derived. As you go up the chain in value, the equipment becomes more revealing of the components they're connected to.

Yeah .. Bi-wiring is like a two piece bikini :licklips:

So why is it not possible to bypass the Xover at all?

--G0bble
 
I don't understand - what has the number of drivers and the x-over layout got to do with the effectiveness or not of bi-wiring? Yes bi = two and that simply means that a separate line feeds the highs [and mids as applicable] and a separate line feeds the lows.

Yeah .. Bi-wiring is like a two piece bikini :licklips:

So why is it not possible to bypass the Xover at all?

--G0bble


The ONLY way you can bypass a crossover entirely is by not having a crossover at all, and that's only possible by using a Full range driver to produce entire spectrum.
These drivers have much bigger magnets and are designed differently from multi way drivers.

Ok, basically in a multi driver setup, the tweeter produces high freq and woofers meds / lows right?

When you bi wire / bi amp a speaker via the 4 terminals on the rear, the crossover section dedicated to the tweeter is responsible for suppressing all mid and low frequencies below a defined crossover point. Without this, the tweeter receives mid and low frequencies which not only are beyond the tweeters capabilities, it also damages it.

Similarly on the section dedicated to the woofers, it is specialized with components to suppress / remove all high frequencies to prevent something called cone breakup where the woofer is trying to do too much and fails at everything.

Over and above this when there are two woofers, the power is once again divided between two drivers so the tweeter's configuration has to be matched accordingly as the power it is receiving is essentially double that of the power getting shared by the two woofers.

Here are some crossover types.

2 way speakers with crossovers designed for seperating tweeter from med+low woofer

2.5 way speakers where a tweeter is separated from 2 woofers (2 to produce more bass than a 2 way speaker but tweeter crossover has to be configured properly so it does not go too far the divided power of two woofers.)

3 way speakers with dedicated high range, midrange and low range.
However how can you have bi for high and low when there are triple drivers for high med AND low frequencies?

When a 3 way speaker has bi wire config on the rear, the tweeter and midrange are clubbed together while dedicated low woofer gets one entire binding post dedicated for it. This again is something the crossover design determines how good the sound is.

A simple solution with 3 way speakers to balance the power without complicating the crossover is by simply adding another low range woofer making it two low drivers and 2 drivers for med and high (1 each)

Some high end 3 way speakers are Tri-wireable/tri ampable.

However in the OP's case it is a 3 way speaker with biamp (the most common type of 3 way)

So in regard to the OP's original question of

How is a 'huge difference' like this possible if bi-wiring is not supposed to give any benefits?

The huge difference only happens when the crossover is well designed. The people who say it makes no difference either don't have the equipment that can take advantage of clean power from biwiring or they fail to recognize / pay attention to the improvement of the sound because it's beyond their comprehension.

Usually low end equipment are not able to benefit from biwiring / biamping / cleaner power. As you are able to audibly notice a difference, it means it has a crossover which is able to take advantage of the cleaner power it is receiving.
 
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I own Vandersteen speakers that have first order crossovers and designed as time-and-phase coherent speakers. They have to be compulsorily run with biwires and you can read about it in Vandersteen website.
A similar time-and-phase accurate speaker is Thiel with first order crossovers (I believe) but can never be biwired.
Another one in that category used to be Dunlavy but I don't have details.
It all depends on the speaker design, especially the crossovers. Only in those speakers designed to run biwired, the latter makes sense. Just because there are four terminals for biwiring do not mean a thing.

cheers.
murali
 
The ONLY way you can bypass a crossover entirely is by not having a crossover at all, and that's only possible by using a Full range driver to produce entire spectrum.



Ok so in the case case of bi-wiring, the sound is still coloured by the electronics on its way to the each cone? Got it.

--G
 
Ok so in the case case of bi-wiring, the sound is still coloured by the electronics on its way to the each cone? Got it.

--G

Yes, however colouring is a very broad word, specialization is a better word suited to the task.
Each brand specializes the crossover to their brands signature sound quality.

For example if you gave the same drivers to b&w and jamo, and asked them to make a crossover according to their company sound signature that people love them for, they'll produce entirely different sounds from the same drivers.
 
The ONLY way you can bypass a crossover entirely is by not having a crossover at all, and that's only possible by using a Full range driver to produce entire spectrum.
FR drivers do not reproduce the entire sound spectrum. They exhibit better low and high frequency response than others.

These drivers have much bigger magnets and are designed differently from multi way drivers.
If the premise here is that the bigger magnets are responsible for the FR reproduction then this is not true. And not all FR drivers have bigger magnets.

When you bi wire / bi amp a speaker via the 4 terminals on the rear, the crossover section dedicated to the tweeter is responsible for suppressing all mid and low frequencies below a defined crossover point..
You have worded this wrong. Irrespective of biwiring, this is the x-overs job, among others. So, to clarify, even if the speaker did not have posts for bi-wiring, wht you said - "the crossover section dedicated to the tweeter is responsible for suppressing all mid and low frequencies below a defined crossover point" - would still hold true

However in the OP's case it is a 3 way speaker with biamp (the most common type of 3 way)
What do you mean by "the most common type of 3 way". One thing confuses me - Polk claims that the TSi300 is a 3 way - surely it is a 2 way with that MTM configuration.!!!
 
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