Bypass dac in audiolab 7000a with a pre-amp ?

[DB1989]

Tonality wise I don't miss much (at least as of now ) but I am looking to improve soundstage and imaging. Right now it is more or less between speakers all muddled.

It's a speaker placement issue as opposed to a dac issue. You'll have to play around with speaker and seat positioning to get at least the imaging between the speakers right. Once you've achieved that, you can widen the placement of your speakers and adjust toe in to widen the soundstage.

 

[doppelganger]

It's a speaker placement issue as opposed to a dac issue. You'll have to play around with speaker and seat positioning to get at least the imaging between the speakers right. Once you've achieved that, you can widen the placement of your speakers and adjust toe in to widen the soundstage.

Thanks for suggestion. I have tried that but my room is pretty small 13*10 approx. Right now lintons are placed 2/3 feets from backside wall and 2 feet from side wall. That leaves approx 5/6 ft between speakers. They are slightly toed in.My sweet spot is 8/9 feet at the center. After trying multiple placements finally got this best placement in current setup. Side wall (long one) are plane walls without any reflective surface like glass. Any suggestions or thread links I can refer to improve situation further ?

 

[mbhangui]

Tonality wise I don't miss much (at least as of now ) but I am looking to improve soundstage and imaging. Right now it is more or less between speakers all muddled.

There can be only the following reasons for mudddled sound. BTW what do you exactly mean by muddled sound?

1. Speakers out of phase. Is the speaker connected correctly. The cable connected to the red binding post on amp connects to the red binding post on the speaker. Same goes for the cable connected to the black coloured binding posts. This is minimum required for both the speakers
2. Amp connection for left and right is out of phase (very unlikely). I have seen this issue with Fosi V3 Mono amplifier, but here if both left and right channels are reversed, it doesn't matter.
3. Speaker connection inside for one of the speaker is incorrect (phase reversed). This is also very very unlikely
4. Your source output has either the left or right phase reversed (very unlikely).
5. One of the RCA cable connecting the source to the amp has wire reversed when soldered to the RCA connector. Somewhat unlikely, but I have seen this mistake in one of my commercial RCA cable. This can be tested easily. Take the two rca cables and with a multimeter make sure the center pin of one end shows continuity with the center pin of the other end. Similary the outer shield at one end should show continuity with the outer shield at the other end
6. Poor room acoustic. Try having the speaker placed on one of the longer walls
7. Speaker placement issue

Out of these speaker, placement is the most frustrating, and room acoustics can make this almost impossible without some treatment. Rear ported speaker like Linton makes it difficult in a small room as you can't go very close to the wall. Treatment of the room can be as easy as filling the room with furniture, carpet, mobile diffusor panels. With small rooms, especially without furnitures, it can be a bit difficult without measurement and without treating the first reflection points. Points 1 to 7 can be tested by playing samples from https://www.audiocheck.net/. BTW it took me few years to get my placement to a satisfactory level. I too had complications like asymmetric room, large tv with the panel made of real glass. Full height glass windows, etc.

You can also play a track that has the singer voice at dead center. If you play the track and find the vocal at the center than you can rule out phase issue. Phase issue is the single biggest reason for confusing muddled sound. However I don't know what you mean by muddled sound.
NOTE: I think the song "Little Room" by Norah Jones has the vocal at dead center.

 

[sachinchavan 15865]

They are slightly toed in.

Toe in can reduce the soundstage. Try firing them straight ahead.

my room is pretty small 13*10 approx

Might be a bit small for the Lintons. There doesn’t seem to be much space behind where you sit.

I’ve heard the Lintons with Audiolab 6000A. There should be no major imaging/soundstage issue with the combo, though I’d say the imaging of Linton isn’t exactly top notch, especially if you are coming from a good bookshelf which usually image better than corresponding floorstanders.

Distance of 2-3 feet from front wall (behind the speakers) is usually sufficient. Check out the out of phase possibilities mentioned in the post above. Muddling shouldn’t happen.

 

[doppelganger]

There can be only the following reasons for mudddled sound. BTW what do you exactly mean by muddled sound?

1. Speakers out of phase. Is the speaker connected correctly. The cable connected to the red binding post on amp connects to the red binding post on the speaker. Same goes for the cable connected to the black coloured binding posts. This is minimum required for both the speakers
2. Amp connection for left and right is out of phase (very unlikely). I have seen this issue with Fosi V3 Mono amplifier, but here if both left and right channels are reversed, it doesn't matter.
3. Speaker connection inside for one of the speaker is incorrect (phase reversed). This is also very very unlikely
4. Your source output has either the left or right phase reversed (very unlikely).
5. One of the RCA cable connecting the source to the amp has wire reversed when soldered to the RCA connector. Somewhat unlikely, but I have seen this mistake in one of my commercial RCA cable. This can be tested easily. Take the two rca cables and with a multimeter make sure the center pin of one end shows continuity with the center pin of the other end. Similary the outer shield at one end should show continuity with the outer shield at the other end
6. Poor room acoustic. Try having the speaker placed on one of the longer walls
7. Speaker placement issue

Out of these speaker, placement is the most frustrating, and room acoustics can make this almost impossible without some treatment. Rear ported speaker like Linton makes it difficult in a small room as you can't go very close to the wall. Treatment of the room can be as easy as filling the room with furniture, carpet, mobile diffusor panels. With small rooms, especially without furnitures, it can be a bit difficult without measurement and without treating the first reflection points. Points 1 to 7 can be tested by playing samples from https://www.audiocheck.net/. BTW it took me few years to get my placement to a satisfactory level. I too had complications like asymmetric room, large tv with the panel made of real glass. Full height glass windows, etc.

You can also play a track that has the singer voice at dead center. If you play the track and find the vocal at the center than you can rule out phase issue. Phase issue is the single biggest reason for confusing muddled sound. However I don't know what you mean by muddled sound.
NOTE: I think the song "Little Room" by Norah Jones has the vocal at dead center.

Most of the time, vocal and instruments are at the center but they are focused just in small area of 1ft X 1ft. They don't spread out. On rare occasions, I have heard wide soundstage with good separation between instruments. Most of my listening is through Apple music +Chromecast on WiiM Pro Plus. I can understand that that old hindi recordings are rarely recorded in stereo setup but I face this problem with western music as well.
Anyway thanks for all suggestions. I will try to explore if one of the above is root cause. Will try to explore if there is any further placement tweak is improving situation.

 

[sachinchavan 15865]

Most of my listening is through Apple music +Chromecast on WiiM Pro Plus. I can understand that that old hindi recordings are rarely recorded in stereo setup but I face this problem with western music as well.

Can you try another source? Like a ripped CD through USB drive? When I play the same song on CD and Apple Music, I find a wider soundtstage on the former. Having said, that, a smaller soundstage shouldn’t necessarily result in muddling… the frequencies can still sound well separated, even if not spatially.

 

[MSLokesh]

Most of the time, vocal and instruments are at the center but they are focused just in small area of 1ft X 1ft. They don't spread out. On rare occasions, I have heard wide soundstage with good separation between instruments. Most of my listening is through Apple music +Chromecast on WiiM Pro Plus. I can understand that that old hindi recordings are rarely recorded in stereo setup but I face this problem with western music as well.
Anyway thanks for all suggestions. I will try to explore if one of the above is root cause. Will try to explore if there is any further placement tweak is improving situation.

Your Linton are too big for the room , I feel. They need room to breathe. See you can listen to better source - well recorded CD for example or Qobuz for streaming. If you still have issues , see if you can place speakers along the long side of wall. You can also try and place the Linton a little closer to side wall , increasing the distance between them . Try placing some indoor plants behind the speakers along with other things that FMs have already suggested.