DACs that do tone and timbre right

[vkalia]

You are a fairly experienced audio guy, OP - i recall you trying single ended tube amps. Did that not provide the sound you were looking for?

 

[Passive_audio_enthusiast]

Thanks ...

But if it is a distortion of the combination of my arm and cart and phoinostsge. Then it is still sounding way more real than my digital I wouldn't call it outright superior as everyone's goals are different. But I will take your advise


They sound very different, depending on the implementation of the circuit to be honest.


You are actually very right flux ..

I did try a falcon gold badge ls3/5a in my room at the end of my own chain. And it did vocals and tone more realistically than my speakers. The vocals were spooky real. But since my speakers are bigger, the panel vibrations increase exponentially, colouring the sound. So a change of speakers could help in the tone part, but apart from the tone, my speakers do everything much better. And on vinyl it still sounds realistic, I can only imagine how spooky it will sound on BBC type speakers.

Thanks for the dac recommendation too. But I think I will invest in a digital transport first and see how that goes

The BBCs sound smooth all the time. That’s the good thing and bad thing about them. It’s a dip at the frequencies that we relate normally to “harshness”. Good thing is vocals sound always smooth, polite and bit more like whispering! The downside is the same. Liking it is a personal thing.

 

[jls001]

But I think I will invest in a digital transport first and see how that goes

Fixed the second channel yet?

 

[Sushant Sharma]

Hi Manohar. Why don't you keep best of both worlds and enjoy the vinyl sound and aspire to keep the digital end sounding different than your analogue.

 

[krishnan.s]

Hi all

As @reignofchaos rightly mentioned. Now iam looking to make my digital sound as realistic as vinyl. Iam chasing tone and timbre now. Detail resolution is actually secondary, as I already have a dac that is a detail hound. I was dead set on a lumin P1.. But had to rethink what I wanted out of the sound.. My current digital sources are a Cambridge audio azur 851N and a esoteric K-01.

If digital can never sound like vinyl, then I'd be happy to abandon the endeavour and pocket the monies . So all suggestions welcome please.

By the way, the effect of vinyl has been so profound that I bought a new tube preamp too. I could be mistaken, but I think tubes do tone and holography better than solid state. And my two tube preamps till now are solid state, though the amplification is all tubes. So please share your findings. I won't be buying anything till next summer anyways, so we have time ( I need to save and build up the war chest )

From my online reading, below are some names that have cropped up
1. Audio note 2.1x and upwards
2. Abbas audio 4.1 se
3. Jolida / Black ice ( this is the cheapest of the lot, and I would be grinning cheek to cheek with the savings)

I don't know if it is a coincidence, but all the above 3 are tubed. And that's one reason why I decided to have tubes in my preamp too . So please post your findings and suggestions. Thanks

Thanks and best regards
Manu

Hi Man

Hi all

As @reignofchaos rightly mentioned. Now iam looking to make my digital sound as realistic as vinyl. Iam chasing tone and timbre now. Detail resolution is actually secondary, as I already have a dac that is a detail hound. I was dead set on a lumin P1.. But had to rethink what I wanted out of the sound.. My current digital sources are a Cambridge audio azur 851N and a esoteric K-01.

If digital can never sound like vinyl, then I'd be happy to abandon the endeavour and pocket the monies . So all suggestions welcome please.

By the way, the effect of vinyl has been so profound that I bought a new tube preamp too. I could be mistaken, but I think tubes do tone and holography better than solid state. And my two tube preamps till now are solid state, though the amplification is all tubes. So please share your findings. I won't be buying anything till next summer anyways, so we have time ( I need to save and build up the war chest )

From my online reading, below are some names that have cropped up
1. Audio note 2.1x and upwards
2. Abbas audio 4.1 se
3. Jolida / Black ice ( this is the cheapest of the lot, and I would be grinning cheek to cheek with the savings)

I don't know if it is a coincidence, but all the above 3 are tubed. And that's one reason why I decided to have tubes in my preamp too . So please post your findings and suggestions. Thanks

Thanks and best regards
Manu

Hi Manohar -
Your requirements resonates very similar to mine. Like someone pointed out its a just not a single component, IMHO too its entire chain that impacts the overall tonality. I have a Denafrips Terminator ( r2r ) DAC hooked to a Mcintosh c22 Pre. My transport is Jay audio CDT. I have switched between the C22 with a passive pre ( without tube buffer ) and regardless of the pre, the denafrips dac does a decent job.

 

[manek]

Hi all

As @reignofchaos rightly mentioned. Now iam looking to make my digital sound as realistic as vinyl. Iam chasing tone and timbre now. Detail resolution is actually secondary, as I already have a dac that is a detail hound. I was dead set on a lumin P1.. But had to rethink what I wanted out of the sound.. My current digital sources are a Cambridge audio azur 851N and a esoteric K-01.

If digital can never sound like vinyl, then I'd be happy to abandon the endeavour and pocket the monies . So all suggestions welcome please.

By the way, the effect of vinyl has been so profound that I bought a new tube preamp too. I could be mistaken, but I think tubes do tone and holography better than solid state. And my two tube preamps till now are solid state, though the amplification is all tubes. So please share your findings. I won't be buying anything till next summer anyways, so we have time ( I need to save and build up the war chest )

From my online reading, below are some names that have cropped up
1. Audio note 2.1x and upwards
2. Abbas audio 4.1 se
3. Jolida / Black ice ( this is the cheapest of the lot, and I would be grinning cheek to cheek with the savings)

I don't know if it is a coincidence, but all the above 3 are tubed. And that's one reason why I decided to have tubes in my preamp too . So please post your findings and suggestions. Thanks

Thanks and best regards
Manu

Been thinking on this topic and I have come to the following conclusion :
If you want a classic car feel and performance buy a classic car and use it with all its pros and cons.
No use buying a new age car and trying to mod it and get it to have the same/similar experience as a classic car.

You like vinyl, use vinyl.
Digital will only disappoint you if you are looking for the vinyl sound.

 

[Yelamanchili manohar]

Been thinking on this topic and I have come to the following conclusion :
If you want a classic car feel and performance buy a classic car and use it with all its pros and cons.
No use buying a new age car and trying to mod it and get it to have the same/similar experience as a classic car.

You like vinyl, use vinyl.
Digital will only disappoint you if you are looking for the vinyl sound.

I've actually reached the same conclusion, but in a sort of long winded way

 

[muralimmreddy]

Of all the dichotomies i choose truth vs beauty. Beauty it is for me.

Truth vs Beauty: A Tale of Two Transports

It is a truism that audiophiles love music. What distinguishes us (footnote 1) from the vast majority of music lovers is the importance we ascribe to the high-quality reproduction of recorded music. But what, exactly, constitutes high-quality sound reproduction? To many audiophiles, the answer...

www.stereophile.com

 

[amit11]

Of all the dichotomies i choose truth vs beauty. Beauty it is for me.

Truth vs Beauty: A Tale of Two Transports

It is a truism that audiophiles love music. What distinguishes us (footnote 1) from the vast majority of music lovers is the importance we ascribe to the high-quality reproduction of recorded music. But what, exactly, constitutes high-quality sound reproduction? To many audiophiles, the answer...

www.stereophile.com

Very nice article.

 

[drgb]

Hi Man

Hi Manohar -
Your requirements resonates very similar to mine. Like someone pointed out its a just not a single component, IMHO too its entire chain that impacts the overall tonality. I have a Denafrips Terminator ( r2r ) DAC hooked to a Mcintosh c22 Pre. My transport is Jay audio CDT. I have switched between the C22 with a passive pre ( without tube buffer ) and regardless of the pre, the denafrips dac does a decent job.

I have had a similar experience with the Terminator. My nephew has been taking me to audition these new R2R dacs and the only one I found reaching close to the memories of my dear old Theta was this Denafrips Terminator dac. Very analogue in it's tone and tambre. Also I found it to be quite different from most modern dacs, it wasn't fatiguing or "processed" sounding.

Please note that my observations are of the first iteration of this DAC, the newer model (Terminator 2) has supposedly gone in a different direction, similar to the other latest r2rs (atleast this is what my nephew tells me as he's heard both quite extensively).

 

[arj]

I have had a similar experience with the Terminator. My nephew has been taking me to audition these new R2R dacs and the only one I found reaching close to the memories of my dear old Theta was this Denafrips Terminator dac. Very analogue in it's tone and tambre. Also I found it to be quite different from most modern dacs, it wasn't fatiguing or "processed" sounding.

Please note that my observations are of the first iteration of this DAC, the newer model (Terminator 2) has supposedly gone in a different direction, similar to the other latest r2rs (atleast this is what my nephew tells me as he's heard both quite extensively).

Now that was a DAC i would love to have. Do try the Schiit Yggdrasil, ts designed by Mike Moffat of Theta.

 

[drgb]

Now that was a DAC i would love to have. Do try the Schiit Yggdrasil, ts designed by Mike Moffat of Theta.

I think we heard that too. The silver one with white LEDs. It was actually very good.
However this terminator stood out for me the most. Visceral, impactful and very organic.
There was another one which my nephew wanted me to hear; bright orange/copper and black coloured one (sorry I forget the name; hola something). It was good too and I remember it to be better than the silver one: the DAC you've mentioned from Moffat. It's just that these still sounded a bit sharp and "digital" if you know what I mean. The terminator was the exception (or relatively less in comparison to others).

Just somehow I don't like these modern DACs (most of them atleast). Maybe it's my ears going bad with age or my perception is biased to the old stuff.

 

[arj]

Just somehow I don't like these modern DACs (most of them atleast). Maybe it's my ears going bad with age or my perception is biased to the old stuff.

yeah , i am also stuck with a Reimyo 777 from early 2000s and never felt the need to go modern untill it conks off. hence need to downsample stuff to 24/48 on digital

 

[krishnan.s]

I have had a similar experience with the Terminator. My nephew has been taking me to audition these new R2R dacs and the only one I found reaching close to the memories of my dear old Theta was this Denafrips Terminator dac. Very analogue in it's tone and tambre. Also I found it to be quite different from most modern dacs, it wasn't fatiguing or "processed" sounding.

Please note that my observations are of the first iteration of this DAC, the newer model (Terminator 2) has supposedly gone in a different direction, similar to the other latest r2rs (atleast this is what my nephew tells me as he's heard both quite extensively).

dear @drgb, you are spot on w.r.t the terminator. The first edition Terminator (T), without the DSP upgrade is the one I have and my bother owns a T+, being the latest. It's true the T+ does not sound like the T. If you happen to get hold of the older one or have one, cherish it!

 

[ZzZzZ]

I think we heard that too. The silver one with white LEDs. It was actually very good.
However this terminator stood out for me the most. Visceral, impactful and very organic.
There was another one which my nephew wanted me to hear; bright orange/copper and black coloured one (sorry I forget the name; hola something). It was good too and I remember it to be better than the silver one: the DAC you've mentioned from Moffat. It's just that these still sounded a bit sharp and "digital" if you know what I mean. The terminator was the exception (or relatively less in comparison to others).

Just somehow I don't like these modern DACs (most of them atleast). Maybe it's my ears going bad with age or my perception is biased to the old stuff.

Sir it's holo audio. Have you tried Sonnet or metrum DACs ? I'm still a novice in audiophilia, but the Sonnet Morpheus DAC I'm using has got quite a beautiful R2R sound.

 

[drgb]

yeah , i am also stuck with a Reimyo 777 from early 2000s and never felt the need to go modern untill it conks off. hence need to downsample stuff to 24/48 on digital

Indeed. Old stuff still rocks. Unfortunately my Theta sang its swan song a few years ago. I got it checked and was unable to find a few parts; had it for 15 years and cherish every moment it was singing.
Anyway, family has grown and now I have grandkids who like to karaoke to Taylor Swift, so I doubt I'll build another system before I kick the bucket.

dear @drgb, you are spot on w.r.t the terminator. The first edition Terminator (T), without the DSP upgrade is the one I have and my bother owns a T+, being the latest. It's true the T+ does not sound like the T. If you happen to get hold of the older one or have one, cherish it!

Yes this seems to be the prevailing opinion, the newer models are not as musical.

Sir it's holo audio. Have you tried Sonnet or metrum DACs ? I'm still a novice in audiophilia, but the Sonnet Morpheus DAC I'm using has got quite a beautiful R2R sound.

Yes you're right, it was the Holo, two chassis dac with power supply and dac as seperate units. It was nice but not as engaging or charming as the terminator. Don't get me wrong, these are expensive dacs and must be very good if you've never had an all analogue setup but for someone coming from vinyl, these will sound sharpish and sterile. The terminator was just less so and had a sense of ease and cohesion, without losing the detail and clarity of digital which makes it a better DAC in my opinion. Btw, I've never heard the sonnet morpheus, sorry. I'm sure it must be good.

 

[drkrack]

The first edition Terminator (T), without the DSP upgrade is the one I have and my bother owns a T+, being the latest. It's true the T+ does not sound like the T.

the newer model (Terminator 2) has supposedly gone in a different direction, similar to the other latest r2rs (atleast this is what my nephew tells me as he's heard both quite extensively).

Thanks FMs, You Saved lots of Money for me. I was Contemplating a T+ upgrade from Terminator 1. Now I'll hold on to the old Terminator instead and Will take a upgrade call only after listening to AB comparison myself.

 

[sydney]

First try some PureDSD files on your current digital setup . Download from nativedsd.com they have some offers goign on. Try DSD256 bit rate. Well I own an AudioNote Dac 2.1x sig. However would say Digital cannot sound like vinyl, but using good media we can enjoy digital the same way we enjoy vinyl.
Try it.

UPDATE

This week i upgraded the spdif interconnect cable between streamer and dac (silver wires aka black pallas from audio note), changed some setting in Roon ... like upsampling and Convolution + some speaker placement tweaks and now my digital sounds pretty close to analog (my previous TT which was an AudioNote Level1)

 

[kratu]

Neither Vinyl or tubes or Digital can claim to be accurate with timbre and tonality ; they're essentially colored versions of actual tonality, chasing that Vinyl kind of tonality is okay but calling it right or expecting DACs to seek that as a Benchmark is quite a stretch.


What Vinyl/Analog gets absolutely right is the DENSITY of the sound, which is more thinner on the digital side. There are many DACs that concentrate on This aspects rather than mind blowing resolution, especially Tube DACs from Lampizator, MDHT labs , AudioNote etc. DACs From Luxman, EAM labs seem to be tuned in that direction. European DACs seem to be more tuned in that direction compared to Chinese / American Manfacturers.

I agree with both the points highlighted here. Getting tonality of all the instruments is tricky. We are talking about replicating sound of myriad percussive, string instruments and not to mention human voice. It comes down to which system is good at creating an illusion of the actual sound. Because, at the end of listening chain, it is all an illusion.

What I'm interested lately, is the part about replicating the sound of vinyl. Before going there, it is good to articulate what it sounds like. 'Density' is one of those characteristic traits of vinyl. I'd term it as 'lush' and 'airy'. It is amazing how they could show the shimmering highs without sound harsh. It is that non-fatiguing quality that I find it so pleasant.

Getting a DAC that can do both is tricky. I'm taking a two-pronged approach. One sounding like vinyl while sacrificing the resolution. And another having more of that resolution while reducing digital glare as possible. This is not ideal. If there is a DAC can achieve both, it is great. From what I have noticed, some DACs try to find a balance but tend to compromise on both. It is like it is neither here nor there.

I'll explore more of the DACs referenced here. If folks can point out more such DACs, it would be nice.

 

[bornfi]

I agree with both the points highlighted here. Getting tonality of all the instruments is tricky. We are talking about replicating sound of myriad percussive, string instruments and not to mention human voice. It comes down to which system is good at creating an illusion of the actual sound. Because, at the end of listening chain, it is all an illusion.

What I'm interested lately, is the part about replicating the sound of vinyl. Before going there, it is good to articulate what it sounds like. 'Density' is one of those characteristic traits of vinyl. I'd term it as 'lush' and 'airy'. It is amazing how they could show the shimmering highs without sound harsh. It is that non-fatiguing quality that I find it so pleasant.

Getting a DAC that can do both is tricky. I'm taking a two-pronged approach. One sounding like vinyl while sacrificing the resolution. And another having more of that resolution while reducing digital glare as possible. This is not ideal. If there is a DAC can achieve both, it is great. From what I have noticed, some DACs try to find a balance but tend to compromise on both. It is like it is neither here nor there.

I'll explore more of the DACs referenced here. If folks can point out more such DACs, it would be nice.

And after several years of dealing with digital, all I can say is that tricky becomes trickier because what we expect DAC to do is actually dependent on how data are fed to DAC. Like in my case, I have spent a good amount of money on power supply to my computer, audiophile Ethernet switch and USB reclocker. And at this time, I like what I hear. I don't want to claim that it sounds like vinyl because I never thought or baselined that vinyl is best.