Essentials for getting yourself good music in the home

[Orko]

Re: Hifi Magazines and their reviews

...no female can be bothered with a equivalent pursuit of home appliances - hence no magazine called What Microwave or What Washing Machine.

Thanks, I just spat out water on my keyboard from laughing! Actually, the female equivalent may well be "What Shampoo" with carefully chosen pairings with ever-exotic conditioners promising magical results. Not unlike this audiophile madness albeit much less expensive.

 

[jaivelu]

Wonderful way of putting things into perspective Mr. Sawyer. Well said and explained!! Thanks for such a lengthy thread with posts explaining simple (which some?!! (no!) more of the users thinking and thought are complex) things with your simple life experiences.

This thread will be very helpful to all the aspirants who are stepping into this realm of HiFi. (or what to call good quality sweet audio experience).

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Re: Hifi Magazines and their reviews

I think I know what you mean!
Coming to the media, I can't think of a more difficult job than as a reviewer. Imagine finding new ways to write, every month, for every new piece of kit that comes along, including this year's iteration of a component that you went ballistic over in a review written just 12-24 months ago. Inventing new ways, new words and new metaphors all the time. I couldn't do this for more than a year or two - one equipment cycle - before my imagination and vocabulary ran out. Doesn't matter which magazine - from certain respected American ones to the eye candy oriented monthly issue of a well known one from the UK. Levels of subtlety may vary, but the underlying challenge would remain the same.

Yes, it's tough. In a way, This could have been the one last final piece of audio writing. Ever.

45 Years of Stereophile​

But does that mean that I stopped reading them then? Nope. I take my turn at feeding at the trough --- and enjoy it too

Hifi media isn't the only one with these issues. Photography is another, as is automobiles. Or almost any other specialist hobby magazine. But one thing makes Hifi unique, afaik. One uses a camera to take pictures. One drives a car to get from one place to another, even as a hobby. The pursuit of the hobby involves a continuous interaction with the relevant equipment and the interface as well as the to and from communication with it which is an important part of use and improvements in this can usually elevate hobby outcomes - or at least have the potential to. Not so with hifi - 99% of the time the equipment has to just sit there, doing the job. Might even be out of sight, from a functional perspective.

I think that that this may be the problem. By sitting there, out of sight (My DAC is out of sight. Literally. It has no switches or controls, just cables in and out: for what do I want to see it*) it offers no credit to the user beyond having bought it. It is like serving up the veggies as bought from the market. Nobody ever says well done for that!

Not very different from a washing machine or a microwave oven really. And all that matter in these are things like: does it do the job reliably, what is the capacity, and how much power does it consume. And what does it cost.
I guess it is male of the species thing - no female can be bothered with a equivalent pursuit of home appliances - hence no magazine called What Microwave or What Washing Machine. Which is probably how they see audio equipment too, and can't be bothered about it enough to become audiophiles.

Ahh... all those settings on the microwave and, even, on the washing machine. And I can confirm that yes, women use them too: they are not just there to appeal to the men. The ladies know that putting their silks on a hot cotton wash will have a far more disastrous result than a "wrong" cable or a "miss-matched" DAC and amplifier hyeah:

But I am a long way from any conclusive conclusion on audio-phile/phool psychology. I haven't even got my own sorted out yet! hyeah:


*You can find the same DAC, on this forum, bought as a bare board and housed in a superb wooden cabinet. That I would not hide away! Would it make any difference to the sound? Of course! It would make me feel good to look at it, and that would affect the sound.

=============================================

Oh, and yes, I guess there are magazines on washing machines and microwaves. Fifty years ago, I used to eagerly read my Parents' copy of Which? with its extensive testing of appliances. Even then I was a shopoholic in training. It was very easy to become one in the world of hifi.

 

[Sawyer]

Re: Hifi Magazines and their reviews

"What Shampoo" with carefully chosen pairings with ever-exotic conditioners promising magical results. Not unlike this audiophile madness albeit much less expensive.

Ahh...you are spot on there, the cosmetics industry exploits the female of the species just as ruthlessly. Cumulatively, it can rival for expensiveness too.

Thanks for such a lengthy thread

Glad to help.

45 Years of Stereophile​

But I am a long way from any conclusive conclusion on audio-phile/phool psychology. I haven't even got my own sorted out yet! hyeah:

I had not read that article - thanks. A sobering read, and one that is seven years old already.

I don't like the latter term for audiophiles, and never use it. It is unnecessarily disrespectful in my view, and unwarranted. Also, as a hobby, this one is quite benign, to oneself or to the world at large. Someone with high end audio equipment with a very high spend can't do the damage that a fool with a Ferrari can do, for instance. And I have no reservation in using the word fool there, indeed it is a milder than deserving one for people who haven't the capability to manage their purchase.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

I disagree on that, but it is not the total of the price tags that make the phool out of the phile, it is how the money is spent. Whether it does any harm or not, the absurd has become not only commonplace but big business in our hobby. Just because the victim is not complaining does not make it any less of a crime.

But I am not trying to be better than anyone else here: we have all been phools some times, and will be again. And again. And when I'm not being phoolish then the pendulum swings the other way to an excess of cynicism.

I think it was Ethan Winer who coined the term audiophoolery. If not, it was from him that I first heard it. If you have not read/seen his stuff, I'll post a couple of links.

I do think that we need to differentiate between merely spending too much in the persuit of excellence, and spending anything on the impossible, the nonsensical and the denial of actual fact --- even, perhaps especially, when some of those things have become mainline.

I also think it is healthy to take the piss out of ourselves sometimes

 

[hemantwaghe]

Re: Music tastes

Before proceeding, I have to describe the music I like as a reference point for some of the beliefs I now hold. I suspect that the kind of music one listens to isn't relevant for these discussions, but it does no harm to give a full background.
1. Jazz
2. Indian classical
3. Western Classical
4. Close miked acoustic vocals - think Norah Jones, Diana Krall, Mark Knopfler, Johnny Cash as examples.
5. Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan and some others in that genre
6. Classic Rock
7. New age instrumental
8. East West fusion
I don't listen to most of modern Bollywood, EDM, trance, or music with heavy head pounding beats. It all sounds the same or tires me out just listening to it.
For my tastes, midrange clarity, sweetness and musicality is critical. Loud thumping bass is the least needed.

Sawer sir
First when you compare you need some base ie referance level

You seems to be thick in it.

I mean which of above music you heard "Live" ,un amplified and then on your system so that one can say his system is good or bad.

I happen to meet hardly 4-5 persons on forum who has first hand recording studio experience. Again the expereince was limited to Indian classical or bollywood music . So anytime heard any "brand " artists like Norah Jones, Diana Krall, Mark Knopfler, Johnny Cash live and then you compared it with your system?

Your inputs will be helpful for a lot of readers and person like me , who is beginner in this journey !

 

[asliarun]

Hello Sawyer,

I have been avidly reading all your posts. Excellent posts - all of them. And i dare say, you have been able to reach your minimalist approach after you found your zen and after a long journey. Not sure if many others, including me, will be able to truly appreciate the end goal you are stating, at least to the level you are describing. Perhaps we too are destined to hack our own way through the weeds of misinformation, over-information, and lack of experience and perspective :sad:

I have been looking to simplify my setup as well, on similar lines you described. However, I am thinking that the TV can actually act as a media hub. Modern televisions have digital out, and are increasingly coming with preinstalled apps for Pandora, Spotify, etc. This digital out from the TV could be easily fed into an integrated amp (with an inbuilt DAC) that accepts digital inputs. Perhaps something like the NAD D 3020 or the NuForce DDA-100 that represents a new breed of "all digital amplifiers" (the entire amplification is done in the digital domain). Even if our TV is not a "smart TV" and does not have apps, a $100 device like Roku can act perfectly well as the digital source. Roku (which I use) has 100+ audio apps for example, and fully supports Pandora, Spotify, Shoutcast, Live 365, etc - basically any internet radio channel you can think of. Roku also allows you to plug in a USB pen drive (256GB is now available for $100), and again the entire music library is accessible from inbuilt Roku apps that are extremely user friendly to use. (I have also heard similar levels of high praise about Sonos, especially its ease of use)

It is a different matter that my TV does not support digital out (only analog out), but I am still willing to experiment with this setup. It will simplify the audio setup quite dramatically, but IMHO, more importantly, it will make it easy enough to use so my family can play music when they want and can play what they want. They don't have to depend on me to fiddle around with knobs and switches and switch on my PC (running Squeezebox server) and what not.

By the way, do you have any suggestions or recommendations on integrated amplifiers and speakers? Or am I jumping the gun?

Thanks,
Arun

 

[Sawyer]

I also think it is healthy to take the piss out of ourselves sometimes

Agreed. I was therefore happy to see the Audiophile jokes thread on this forum, some brilliant ones there I hadn't seen before and enjoyed a lot. Life is best when not taken too seriously.

I mean which of above music you heard "Live" ,un amplified and then on your system so that one can say his system is good or bad.

Jazz at clubs in Chicago, and Indian classical at small concerts in India. To be honest, it allows one to understand how different it sounds from any home audio system. Remember too that hifi equipment also has as its aim to be as true as possible to the recorded sound. Which means that any thing that the recording engineer does to tweak the performed sound to what he or his company thinks the market wants, is also passed on to us at home. I trust you can see why one cannot use the comparison you refer to above to decide on the merits of any system. Bottom line - if your system sounds good to you for the music you like and play over extended listening sessions, it is a good system.

Perhaps we too are destined to hack our own way through the weeds of misinformation, over-information, and lack of experience and perspective :sad:

However, I am thinking that the TV can actually act as a media hub. it will make it easy enough to use so my family can play music when they want and can play what they want. They don't have to depend on me to fiddle around with knobs and switches and switch on my PC (running Squeezebox server) and what not.

By the way, do you have any suggestions or recommendations on integrated amplifiers and speakers? Or am I jumping the gun?

Thanks,
Arun

It is the human condition that all of us have to find our own way. One can attempt to make new mistakes however, learning from the mistakes others have made.
I am sure that TVs have the capability you suggest and your objective of making a family friendly system is very admirable. I don't know enough about how it all comes together via that route though, so I can only wish you good luck in your endeavour.
Suggestions - no, I prefer not to make them. Where speakers are concerned, what you like after extended listening to music you like, preferably at home, and what you can afford is the way to go. Beyond that, it is too subjective to make a recommendation.
Where supporting electronics are concerned, other than making the recommendation of selecting it after you have decided on the speakers, and the non generic guidelines I have suggested, I have nothing to say in more specific terms. Modern solid state design, component and manufacturing technology means that there is plenty of good stuff out there, new or used. Advances in this area means that for much lower prices than before, high quality is obtainable. But people far too often fall into the trap of thinking that just because something is cheap, it can't be delivering the quality they are looking for. And vice versa.

 

[Sawyer]

Recommendations

On this subject, what I can do is confirm that with two exceptions that needed repair, none of the equipment I have used, referred earlier in this thread, was bad in terms of delivering inadequate sound quality or poor reliability. Some were more expensive than what was needed, and some weren't necessary, consuming money, footprint and electricity for no returns. But none of them needed any repair.
The two exceptions were:
1. Cadence VA 1 amp - this needed minor repairs a couple of times when it stopped delivering sound. When I saw the opened case, I wasn't surprised, there was a birds nest of wires going around inside, very unlike modern audio equipment. I wasn't impressed.
2. Quad CDP - Right from the start, the CD tray mechanism wasn't reassuring. I wasn't surprised when it started giving trouble after some time. But Quad UK did a fantastic job, repairing it and upgrading the firmware for free. I did have to incur shipping costs though.

 

[hemantwaghe]

Bottom line - if your system sounds good to you for the music you like and play over extended listening sessions, it is a good system.

Thanks - so that means this write up is your perception and other members may have different than this - right??

 

[Sawyer]

Thanks - so that means this write up is your perception and other members may have different than this - right??

See the first two sentences of my first post for an answer. It would have been dreary to repeat them at the start of every subsequent post.

Except to the truly spiritual, all of reality as we know it is nothing but a perception.

In this case, it is also a perception shared by many people I know, some of who are older and wiser than me, from whom I have learnt a lot.

 

[Sawyer]

A thread from the Sonos forum

The linked thread from the Sonos forum may be of interest.
64kb, 24 bit music! - Sonos Forums
Be warned though that general trend on the forum is anti audiophile, for lack of a better word. Which in itself is a bias of sorts, hence the warning.
A legendary thread there is the one on Hi res music. It has gone on and on and on for ever, it feels like.

 

[prem]

I have had all kinds of speakers at home over the last 25 years. From dynamic to electrostatic to open baffle to concentric driver to single driver to single driver with augmented bass.

I pretty much agree with Sawyer that speakers and the room make the biggest difference to the sound. Hence as Sawyer recommends, hear the different kinds of speakers available. Finalise the one that floats your boat and then choose your amp.

The part where i differ from Sawyer is depending on the speaker you finalise, the amp that will work best with that speaker may not always necessarily be cheap. For example with a single driver, a basic well designed SET amp will work. No need for expensive amps. However if you go for an electrostatic like Logan or Sound Labs you will have to spend on amplification. Ditto if you go for a diamond tweeter in your speaker.

IME the whole play is in the mid bass. Harbeths augment the mid bass adding warmth to the sound. Because of this augmented mid bass, it can mask the differences between various cables. Ditto for most British speakers.

If you choose a speaker which is a little lean on the mid bass, the differences between various amps and cables become a little more obvious.

I have kept changing my speakers not because i disliked them but more from boredom and the itch to change. In most cases shifts have been parallel.

 

[Sawyer]

The part where i differ from Sawyer is depending on the speaker you finalise, the amp that will work best with that speaker may not always necessarily be cheap.

IME the whole play is in the mid bass. Harbeths augment the mid bass adding warmth to the sound. Because of this augmented mid bass, it can mask the differences between various cables. Ditto for most British speakers.

If I conveyed the impression referred to in the first paragraph, it was unintended. Certain speakers need a lot of power to wake up and sing, and watts are cheap only up to a point. But there are plenty of good speakers also available that are designed to be friendly loads, not needing that kind of expensive clean power, and this is something to keep in mind if the objective is to keep the overall system cost low.

Regardless, that is why I too said that amp selection should follow speaker selection.

And I wouldn't use the term mid bass, I would say mid range. And for my kind of music, mid range is king. As to the Harbeth voicing, I am not sure what they add or take away, to me they sound natural and not fatiguing. I like them, but this is a matter of subjective preference. Voicing can't be discerned from the speaker spec to a large degree, only by listening them to them for an extended session. What may sound exciting at first can end up being fatiguing after a couple of hours. Hence, extended listening before opening the wallet. Also, the above is a reason why I prefer not to recommend any speaker, no matter how good it sounds to me.

 

[prem]

Agreed Sawyer. I too never recommend a speaker. To me this whole system voicing is like choosing a perfume. It's very personal. There's is nothing right or wrong. Just like some people like a woody fragrance and some a flowery fragrance and some a musk fragrance, I feel music too is heard differently by different people. Which is why I guess there are so many brands. And like in food or perfumes there are the big guys and a whole lot of small manufacturers. I think wherever sensory organs come into play a lot of subjectivity comes in

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

I think what you both say makes a lot of sense and actually blends nicely.

 

[0verkilled]

Thank you Sawyer for your valuable inputs, I felt good reading this thread. I had read a thread similar to this from a Hifi store salesperson, very similar experiences.

I guess Thad's signature sums it all. There was one Blind/AB test which put reputed hifi people to shame - with highly expensive cable and a coat hanger. Which obviously does not make any difference. I mean, its just electrons passing from one atom to another.
Also, I was sent back to school when you mentioned about the thickness of the wire

I understand why there are not so many responses, nevertheless, those who read your posts would be thinking - I guess he is right! But, when the next question about amp comes up, it all starts again - timber, warm, lukewarm ..

*Just a personal opinion, not trying to offend anyone

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

We are all somewhere on the scale. Whilst I refuse to countenance very expensive cables, and will not associate bigger sample rates with the word "better," I just can't imagine going into a shop to buy an amplifier, and saying, "Give me one amplifier. Any one will do: just pass me the nearest."

But I know very well that minute changes of level, not detectable as increases in loudness, do make a difference to perceived quality, so there is a lot wrong with most of our comparative listening. Of course, that isn't going to stop us doing it.

I was reading, from an engineer on Gearslutz, the other day, "0.1db difference in level is very much audible." This made me think for a moment or three before realising that it very well might be, even to those of us with imperfect ears, not necessarily as a change of volume.


~

 

[Sawyer]

. There was one Blind/AB test which put reputed hifi people to shame - with highly expensive cable and a coat hanger. Which obviously does not make any difference. I mean, its just electrons passing from one atom to another.

Why should that be a surprise? Hifi just means high fidelity to the source signal, not high expense in all parts of the system. For an amplifier it means straight wire with gain. For an interconnect or speaker cable it means straight wire with nothing added or taken away from the source signal, which is just electrical in nature. Copper is as good a conductor of electricity as some other much more expensive materials, and making copper cables of the required purity is ancient technology, which is why good copper cables are now a cheap commodity. All one has to do is pick a thick enough copper core to account for signal losses caused by the length of the cable needed.
Interconnects need some careful construction to shield the lower voltage signals from electro magnetic interference, but even that technology isn't rocket science, it is just a little more expensive to make than regular electrical cables.
What needs care is the terminations - to ensure connections of good electrical integrity, that stay that way as time passes. Again, not expensive to do.

 

[Mr.Zed]

Sawyer, your time and effort sincerely appreciated.
This thread is a must read for noobs (at least)
I am at the bulls eye of your target audience.
Have always been in favor of pointing out the emperors new clothes.