Excited about PHILIPS AF 834

[reubensm]

The disclaimer here is that it is extremely difficult to achieve sound absolutely free of some ticks and pops on used vinyl, even if you use the best cleaning method. If you are playing new vinyl or vinyl that you know the usage history of, then its a different scenario. I have an "un-reasonable" friend who exited vinyl because he could not get it to sound as "clean" as CDs. By "clean" he meant, without ticks and pops.

Little bit of update:

I have tried this vinyl cleaning method.



I have just used Kinley mineral water. Hope that is fine.
I have used two very old records which I think was NOT played during last 10 years at least. And I tried one which I got recently and have played but with some noise.

I have kept them for drying. Will try to check them tomorrow, if time permits.

 

[shafic]

The disclaimer here is that it is extremely difficult to achieve sound absolutely free of some ticks and pops on used vinyl, even if you use the best cleaning method. If you are playing new vinyl or vinyl that you know the usage history of, then its a different scenario. I have an "un-reasonable" friend who exited vinyl because he could not get it to sound as "clean" as CDs. By "clean" he meant, without ticks and pops.

Well said Reuben. very practical!!

 

[Record Player]

I have an "un-reasonable" friend who exited vinyl because he could not get it to sound as "clean" as CDs. By "clean" he meant, without ticks and pops.

Don't we all love those pops and clicks? Adds to the overall feel of record playing. Obviously not too much of it.

Over the years, somehow my ears just focus on the music and the minor pops and clicks hardly bother me, its like I don't even hear then unless consciously.

Cheers...

 

[manniraj]

Don't we all love those pops and clicks? Adds to the overall feel of record playing. Obviously not too much of it.

Over the years, somehow my ears just focus on the music and the minor pops and clicks hardly bother me, its like I don't even hear then unless consciously.

Cheers...

+1, in fact I have bought the Shafic's TT just for the sake of having the feeling of the ticks/pops which you do not get to hear from a CD or ripped songs

 

[koushik]

Regarding the hum in TT, I think re-caping may fix the issue. In fact, you should always re-cap an old piece of electronics.

 

[quad]

Regarding the hum in TT, I think re-caping may fix the issue. In fact, you should always re-cap an old piece of electronics.

No, not really. Unless a TT has a built-in RIAA preamp,
there should be no caps or any components at all
in the signal path. The signal goes straight from cartridge pins to
the RCA jacks/plug.

 

[koushik]

No, not really. Unless a TT has a built-in RIAA preamp,
there should be no caps or any components at all
in the signal path. The signal goes straight from cartridge pins to
the RCA jacks/plug.

Here re-caping is meant as changing the power caps not anything on the signal path.

 

[RMCWS]

The disclaimer here is that it is extremely difficult to achieve sound absolutely free of some ticks and pops on used vinyl, even if you use the best cleaning method. If you are playing new vinyl or vinyl that you know the usage history of, then its a different scenario. I have an "un-reasonable" friend who exited vinyl because he could not get it to sound as "clean" as CDs. By "clean" he meant, without ticks and pops.

After cleaning 3 vinyls, I have tried them today.

Two of them were old and I don't think they were played in the last 10 years as they were lying in a corner of the house. They both had some scratches too.

The one that shafic gave was also cleaned.

And I have no history of these sq of vinlys.

I have played all the 3 but there is NO improvement. The background noise is still there. Not very sure if this is similar "ticks and pops" as you have mentioned.

I also changed the counterweight/ tracking force gauge to 2.5 from 1.5. But as suggested by you to go for 4, but this tt max level is 2.5. The anti skate is still kept at 1.5

As shafic suggested there might be some earthing issues with the amp (amp is yamaha 373) with a two pin electric plug connection. I will look into this later.

Also I will try to get a new vinyl to test the set or may be take my vinyls to someone else for checking the quality.

And cleaning vinyls even using the simplest method takes effort and time. So it seems its gonna be a long term affair.

 

[reubensm]

Background noise (when the stylus is on the record) can be a rushing surface noise, bassy and hum-like rumble or ticks and pops. With this model of TT that you have, honestly you cannot get rid of rumble (that will remain). To be very honest, the flavour of your post suggests that you've not done a lot of homework and are currently in discovery mode. Vinyl sound has certain characteristics like surface noise, pops, etc that add to the vintage flavour. Lets be realistic here, with the AF834 with an EEI CS2000, you really cannot achieve the levels of accuracy that you are probably expecting. As cool as it may look, the AF834 is well and truly a straight forward basic turntable which will sing for you. Focus on setting the grounding issue right, sit back and enjoy the music

If the counterweight setting does not go above 2.5gms, it certainly means that your TT was designed for magnetic carts.

Edit: Hope I did'nt sound aggressive, just trying to present the facts.

After cleaning 3 vinyls, I have tried them today.

Two of them were old and I don't think they were played in the last 10 years as they were lying in a corner of the house. They both had some scratches too.

The one that shafic gave was also cleaned.

And I have no history of these sq of vinlys.

I have played all the 3 but there is NO improvement. The background noise is still there. Not very sure if this is similar "ticks and pops" as you have mentioned.

I also changed the counterweight/ tracking force gauge to 2.5 from 1.5. But as suggested by you to go for 4, but this tt max level is 2.5. The anti skate is still kept at 1.5

As shafic suggested there might be some earthing issues with the amp (amp is yamaha 373) with a two pin electric plug connection. I will look into this later.

Also I will try to get a new vinyl to test the set or may be take my vinyls to someone else for checking the quality.

And cleaning vinyls even using the simplest method takes effort and time. So it seems its gonna be a long term affair.

 

[jls001]

@RMCWS: look for records that still have a shine on the surface. Or pick up the ones you feel can get the shine back after you are through with your cleaning-drying regimen. A matte surface is a dead giveway of a record that has seen high play. You are likely to get more surface noise from such records. And even if there is not much noise, the music will sound dull from such a record. Also, look for scratch lines. Hold the record under light at various angles and the scratches will show up. They are a sign of rough handling. And lastly, don't buy a record that is missing the inner sleeve. Don't be bothered if there are dust deposits on a good record as they can be cleaned. Lots of records are stored for years and they gather fungal spots and dust. One needs to clean those off before the needle is ever allowed to make contact.

Good records are surprisingly quiet, though there can be occasional pops and clicks at or below music level and shouldn't distract much from the music. It becomes irritating when pops and clicks get loud and frequent. But surface noise is the more bothersome for me, as it tends to be there throughout a record. I stop playing such records.

Also, as Reuben pointed out, may be it is time to move to MM. If your tracking weight is limited to just is 2.5 g, it is most likely designed for MM.

Addendum: the above post is not to discourage anyone, but to try and add a dose of reality check to the analog playback experience.

 

[reubensm]

+1 to Joshua's comments on the record surface.

If you are a DIYer, you can actually experiment by placing a small weight over the headshell to increase the tracking force. However do this only if you have some basic knowledge about TTs and have a scale to measure the tracking force. I have done this in the past for a friend's TT and got a ceramic cartridge to track at 7 gms.

However, please try this only if your are dead sure about what you intend to do.

@RMCWS: look for records that still have a shine on the surface. Or pick up the ones you feel can get the shine back after you are through with your cleaning-drying regimen. A matte surface is a dead giveway of a record that has seen high play. You are likely to get more surface noise from such records. And even if there is not much noise, the music will sound dull from such a record. Also, look for scratch lines. Hold the record under light at various angles and the scratches will show up. They are a sign of rough handling. And lastly, don't buy a record that is missing the inner sleeve. Don't be bothered if there are dust deposits on a good record as they can be cleaned. Lots of records are stored for years and they gather fungal spots and dust. One needs to clean those off before the needle is ever allowed to make contact.

Good records are surprisingly quiet, though there can be occasional pops and clicks at or below music level and shouldn't distract much from the music. It becomes irritating when pops and clicks get loud and frequent. But surface noise is the more bothersome for me, as it tends to be there throughout a record. I stop playing such records.

Also, as Reuben pointed out, may be it is time to move to MM. If your tracking weight is limited to just is 2.5 g, it is most likely designed for MM.

 

[Saket]

If you are a DIYer, you can actually experiment by placing a small weight over the headshell to increase the tracking force.

+1 to Reuben.

There are weights available in the market and even at times included with new cartridges pack. You can add a 3 Gms weight on the headshell (secured by cartridge mounting screws) and increase the effective tracking force. However, I would advice that you soon upgrade to MM cartridges for much better fidelity & longer life of vinyls.

Regards,
Saket

 

[aks07]

If you are a DIYer, you can actually experiment by placing a small weight over the headshell to increase the tracking force.

Such a pity that those 5 paise and 10 paise coins are hard to come by now.

Back in the days they would do a tidy job of taming a jumping jack tone arm.

 

[sachu888]

As Reuben rightly said,your TT is designed to take MM carts,which is good.I would advise you to buy a decent MM cart.It will make remarkable difference.
Your Ceramic cart will never match a performance of MM.You are also risking your vinyls at so much higher tracking force.

Regards,
Sachin

 

[Tanoj]

As Reuben rightly said,your TT is designed to take MM carts,which is good.I would advise you to buy a decent MM cart.It will make remarkable difference.
Your Ceramic cart will never match a performance of MM.You are also risking your vinyls at so much higher tracking force.

+ 1 to this, buy a cart and send me the Headshell, i can fit it as i still got the TT, and send you back

Also Buy a MM Phono stage of sachin, i can solder it for you n send you both in one go
(

Even i never used Ceramic cart so cannot even imagine how the SQ will be

Regards

Tanoj

 

[RMCWS]

Background noise (when the stylus is on the record) can be a rushing surface noise, bassy and hum-like rumble or ticks and pops. With this model of TT that you have, honestly you cannot get rid of rumble (that will remain). To be very honest, the flavour of your post suggests that you've not done a lot of homework and are currently in discovery mode. Vinyl sound has certain characteristics like surface noise, pops, etc that add to the vintage flavour. Lets be realistic here, with the AF834 with an EEI CS2000, you really cannot achieve the levels of accuracy that you are probably expecting. As cool as it may look, the AF834 is well and truly a straight forward basic turntable which will sing for you. Focus on setting the grounding issue right, sit back and enjoy the music

If the counterweight setting does not go above 2.5gms, it certainly means that your TT was designed for magnetic carts.

Edit: Hope I did'nt sound aggressive, just trying to present the facts.

Thank you for your advice and seriously you did not sound aggressive at all. I have learnt a lot from this forum and guys like you.

I have done a bit of home work while getting into TT and vinlys but I guess it was lot lesser than what was required.

I might not get the clarity with AF834 I am expecting but will take this as a learning experience and hope this would help me in next upgrade.

Right now I am trying to enjoy the existing setup. But will upgrade to a MM soon [when time as well as money permits]

@RMCWS: look for records that still have a shine on the surface. Or pick up the ones you feel can get the shine back after you are through with your cleaning-drying regimen. A matte surface is a dead giveway of a record that has seen high play. You are likely to get more surface noise from such records. And even if there is not much noise, the music will sound dull from such a record. Also, look for scratch lines. Hold the record under light at various angles and the scratches will show up. They are a sign of rough handling. And lastly, don't buy a record that is missing the inner sleeve. Don't be bothered if there are dust deposits on a good record as they can be cleaned. Lots of records are stored for years and they gather fungal spots and dust. One needs to clean those off before the needle is ever allowed to make contact.

Good records are surprisingly quiet, though there can be occasional pops and clicks at or below music level and shouldn't distract much from the music. It becomes irritating when pops and clicks get loud and frequent. But surface noise is the more bothersome for me, as it tends to be there throughout a record. I stop playing such records.

Also, as Reuben pointed out, may be it is time to move to MM. If your tracking weight is limited to just is 2.5 g, it is most likely designed for MM.

Addendum: the above post is not to discourage anyone, but to try and add a dose of reality check to the analog playback experience.

I will definitely keep these points in mind while buying the records. What I got are the records given by Shafic with this TT and I have found around 50-75 records at my home. So practically haven't purchase anything yet.

Right now I am only in the "cleaning mode" and it is a really time consuming process.

And regarding the MM, it will be my next update for TT. So if I upgrade to MM cart, I will require a phonestage/phonoamp, right [TT > phonoamp> stereo amp> speakers ???]

As Reuben rightly said,your TT is designed to take MM carts,which is good.I would advise you to buy a decent MM cart.It will make remarkable difference.
Your Ceramic cart will never match a performance of MM.You are also risking your vinyls at so much higher tracking force.

Regards,
Sachin

Yes sir, I will remember that.

+ 1 to this, buy a cart and send me the Headshell, i can fit it as i still got the TT, and send you back

Also Buy a MM Phono stage of sachin, i can solder it for you n send you both in one go
(

Even i never used Ceramic cart so cannot even imagine how the SQ will be

Regards

Tanoj

Thank you so much man. I will buy it soon [time and budget]. And yes, a phono stage from Sachin too which you can make it ready as I will not be able to do it myself.

And one of my friend is going to BLR in Feb, so might send through him. And in case you need something from Calcutta, let me know.

 

[reubensm]

Wow!! I think your approach is right. The philips can be a great learning experience. Learn as much as you can. Ceramic carts are not that bad and can give you enjoyable listening. Yes, they are inferior when compared to magnetic carts but if they are used in the right way with realistic right expectations, they can sound good to the ears. Sorry if I sound like an old record but I'd like to narrate a small story that my father told me which is quite a revelation. Right through from mid 1960s till 1972, our house hold listened to music on ceramic carts, but with very well designed pre-amplification. In 1972, our Garrard arrived from England with a then, state of the art Shure cartridge, M75-6. A new "solid state" amplifier also came from abroad. As with all audio enthusiasts, my excited father disconnected his old setup and stacked it in a corner, wired up the new rig and started playing music. He was expecting people from inside our home and the neighbours to come running to him enquiring about the source of the new sound, however in reality, nobody came. The next day, the neighbours started enquiring about what he had done to his music system, it did not sound as good as before. He would always quote this story when we used to talk about ceramic vs magnetic. Subsequent to this experience, he got an EEI CS2000 and set it up with a Garrard Headshell so that he could use a ceramic cart (for regular use) on his Garrard. He phased this out when a NAD 1020A preamp arrived in the household.

Also, the myth about ceramic carts damaging records is not to be believed. In those days, the standard record players did not have counter balances and played records tracking at almost the full weight of the tonearm. This is the dangerous scenario. Records played on these record players would get worn soon. However, the more advanced turntables had the counterbalanced tonearms. A ceramic cart tracking at 4gms won't cause any damage to your records. However ensure that you use only the microgroove stylus (and not the 78 stylus) for playing your LPs and 45s.

On another note, most records available in the Indian pre-used market would have been played with ceramic carts anyways. In the 1960s and 1970s, only the rich Indian house holds had access to magnetic carts (usually imported from the western world). The common man could only afford ceramic carts (usually EEI or HMV).

Edit: Learning is generally by 2 methods, (1) reading/discussing and (2) experiencing. To get a good hold of the concepts and the basics, I would say 30% of (1) and 70% of (2) is the way to go.

 

[aks07]

^^
Fantastic post. Captures the essence of it beautifully.

 

[shibashis]

Hi RMCWS,
Just wanted to check with you how is your journey going with the Phillips Turntable. Any new revelations, a few moments of magical reflection that made you smile quietly on the account of your turntable? I am looking to get one myself.

 

[RMCWS]

Its been quite some time that I have ventured into the world of TT. Frankly due to lack of time, I am not been able to devote sufficient energy to TT listening except in the weekends (though not regularly).

I have got myself some records to listen to. Some belong to my father too.

Regarding the experience, I have learnt to enjoy the sound with this usual ticks and pops. Now I understand it gives you a different feeling altogether.
Though I have not yet exposed myself to any other TT yet, so comparing anything would not be fair.

Some suggestion is required from your end.
My TT is directly connected to the aux of the avr and the earthing is plugged in. But to get a semi-decent volume (only the volume and not sound quality) I have to tune it to -10db on the AVR while for movies and CDs, -20db is pretty decent volume and -10db is kind for loud of the room.

How am I suppose to get high volumes as the sound seems to be kind of low even at -10db of the avr.

1. Do I need a phono preamp? Something like this built by our FM Sachu888 or a Berhinger

2. As I am currently using a ceramic cart, will a phono preamp work? or do I need to shift to a mag cart and then use a phono preamp?

3. I think current Sonodyne amps like sia-320 has phono amp. So if one buys this, does the need of buying a separate phono preamp remain?

Right now my requirement is just to increase the volume of output of the lps. if the clarity increases then its a bonus. I am not currently looking for a stereo amp though. What will be the best solution for increasing the sound volume of my TT with a limited budget?

You can easily build a equalization stage for your ceramic cart for about Rs.50/- if you are into DIY. The sound quality on from ceramic cart will increase tremendously if you do this.

I am not at all into DIY. Can I buy an equalization stage for my ceramic cart from anyone? Any pointers will be appreciated.

Welcome to Vinyl world. When you connect TT with ceramic cart to aux, you may not get the desired gain as the signal strength of ceramic cart may not match the signal of aux. If it does not, you may have to use an amplifier with ceramic phono input selector found in some vintage amps like Hi Q international Philips amplifiers or Philips Stereo Valve radios. The other option will be changing the cartridge to magnetic and hooking it to a amplifier with magnetic phono input.

For the time being can a ceramic phono amp (without buying any stereo amp) be used like TT => ceramic phono amp => AVR = > Speakers?

would even go the extend of saying that those who prefer to listen to only old used records of Indian languages, should try ceramic cart with matching phono stage and systems to go with it?

Can you suggest some matching phono stage?

The Behringer PP-400 phonostage is for Moving Magnetic carts. If you connect the EEI CS2000 to it, the EEI will heavily overload it and you'll get high intensity distorted sound. The 2 options are (1) to buy a new MM cart and use it with a MM phonostage or (2) retain the same EEI CS2000 and build a simple RIAA equalization stage for it. There is also a 3rd option wherein you can get yourself an old amp with a ceramic cart input.

Can I buy a equalization stage for the ceramic cart? I am not at all into DIY and can't build it.

+ 1 to this, buy a cart and send me the Headshell, i can fit it as i still got the TT, and send you back

Also Buy a MM Phono stage of sachin, i can solder it for you n send you both in one go
(

Even i never used Ceramic cart so cannot even imagine how the SQ will be

Regards

Tanoj

Tanoj, I got the additional cart philips EG 1400 from Shafic with the TT. Can something be done with it?