May be he is just a stereo guyMaybe, but that's not what I was told. Not officially, anway. I was asked to write a letter explaining why so many speakers were needed for personal use!
From a soundbar to an all-Seaton Atmos setup
- Thread starter liverpool_for_life
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liverpool_for_life
Well-Known Member
Nah. Of course, my source (iTunes), lack of placement choices (read: none), a non-symmetrical room, marble flooring and bare concrete walls didn't help. Reflecting on it now, the environment was terrible, while expectations weren't sufficiently tempered. Naturally, disappointment was the result.
The mind being what it is though, I consoled myself that the Catalysts would be better than the Sparks. And while that was undoubtedly true, there was still no magic from the audio. More consolation: They'll sound much better once they are moved to the room where the HT would be setup.
Move it the next day to the space for the HT: Underwhelmed. Could the speakers go loud? Undeniably. Unfortunately, the sound was unbearably harsh at those levels. Turn it down to more moderate levels and the boominess of the room becomes a real issue. Nothing more to do for now as Navarathri was round the corner, thereby ruling out any installation procedures.
Before the speakers arrived though, I'd already decided on (and bought) a projector. Given the amount of ambient light in the room and my desire(not particularly rational, this one) to get everything in under a specified budget, we settled on the Epson TW6700, a true light cannon. It had been reviewed as the best sub-2K USD projector in the market at the time. Full HD, not 4K (a decision I've since come to regret).
Still, a projector in the house for the first time == Extremely thrilling. Once the speakers were wired in post-Navarathri and the projector was hooked up on the ceiling, I was projecting on to a cream-colored wall with a window that wasn't blacked out and my jaw was on the floor.
It took a while for my screen to arrive and it was installed right in time for our wedding anniversary. I was now projecting an ~140 in diagonal image onto it. No curtains anywhere in the room, but the picture to me was simply gorgeous! I can't find that person these days anymore
.My brother's response (he is a video guy): Eppidi da munnaadi screen illaama paathundu irundha? (How on earth were you watching without the screen?!)
My father's response: He sat transfixed in his seat for close to an hour watching "The Art of Flight" bluray demo. Priceless and one of my most precious memories in life.
Family, friends: They all loved the setup (the opening scene of The Dark Knight never fails to impress). It was a first for all of us.
Setup at this point: Tata Sky HD and Apple TV going into the Oppo 103, with video going to the projector and Oppo's analog outs going to the active Seatons. Oppo discourages the use of the 103 as a pre-amp (like I was using), but that's all I had at the point.
The only one that knew that things were nowhere close to where they ought to be was me. As I like to say, I know just enough to be dangerous (and unhappy!). It's a curse, I tell you :- ).
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liverpool_for_life
Well-Known Member
This, combined with my dissatisfaction of the audio quality, led me further towards digital EQ. While I was planning on having the room treated, I did want to make my speakers more listenable in my room before that happened.
Some folks may remember that I already had a Dirac-capable EQ device (NanoAVR DL) when I had the soundbar. Of course, with its HDMI-only in and out, I couldn't put it anywhere in my chain. So, time for the minidsp NanoAVR HDA.
My signal path at this point:
Sources (Tata Sky, Apple TV)-> Oppo 103 -> NanoAVR DL -> NanoAVR HDA -> Projector and speakers
Unfortunately, I didn't think this one through completely and I had an extremely knotty problem: Oppo's bass management isn't engaged when you use the digital outs. So, I was effectively only EQ'ing the .1 portion of the audio going to the subwoofer, not the bass managed signal (based on which Dirac generates its filters). This can lead to issues, especially around the crossover region. Something's better than nothing though given the other issues I was fighting, right? So, I went right on ahead.
With both the NanoAVR DL and HDA in the chain, I ran into significant HDMI handshake issues that could be only be resolved by a complete power reboot of the components in order from sink (display device) to source (Oppo). A colossal pain in the you-know-where.
Still, I pushed on with the Dirac calibration. In retrospect, I wasn't experienced enough with Dirac to get a good handle on customized target curves. The default Dirac curves didn't do much for me and I was also stuck with the HDMI handshake issues.
My dream speakers and I was desperately unhappy at the state of (audio) affairs in my room. And, the room treatments were going to be a while. Aargh!
At this point, I had been considering biting the bullet and getting a separate pre-amp. NAD had also just released their Dirac-capable pre-amp (NAD T758 v3), which also happened to be one of the cheapest Atmos capable ones as well. I was very, very intrigued.
Time to call Mark for input on the NAD. This would eliminate the BM after Dirac issue and also potentially help with the handshake issues I was experiencing. His recommendations for a pre-amp (his order of preference):
1. Anthem AVM 60
2. Denon/Marantz (forget the models he mentioned)
3. NAD T758 v3
The Anthem AVM 60 was more than 2x the price of the NAD, but Mark knows what he is talking about. So, I talk to my dealer (Volumate) and in less than a week, the AVM 60 is home, hooked up and I've had my first ARC calibration done.
Result? The harshness of the mids and highs as I push the volume up to reference is dramatically reduced, although the boominess remains. And the missus can tell the difference ARC has made, even at low volumes. Much clearer audio, she says. Purchase validation!
For a first pass, I'm pretty happy. Oh, and the HDMI handshake issues are a thing of the past. And, the AVM 60 comes with an in-built FM tuner. More music during the day for me. Good times!
Setup at this point: Sources (Tata Sky, Apple TV, Oppo 103)-> Anthem AVM 60 -> Projector and speakers
I'm still yearning for my passive room treatment to happen though, as I expect it to make a significant difference. I really didn't want to EQ too far up the frequency range although that's where I was at that point.
Having said that, the addition of the AVM 60 made a significant difference to the SQ in my room. The best things had sounded in my room till then. Admittedly, that wasn't saying much, but still.
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elangoas
Well-Known Member
I have never done the manual EQ, but would like to try them sometime, down the upgrade..
How far-up the freq range have you applied EQ?.. Plz share pics of the room response and the EQ applied would be great to comprehend..
liverpool_for_life
Well-Known Member
ARC defaults to 5 KHz, and an Anthem engineer recommended that I leave it there when he looked at my speakers' in-room response.
Find attached for the FL, FR, Center and Subwoofer. The grey curve at the bottom is the EQ that the Anthem is applying via ARC.
elangoas
Well-Known Member
Ok.. 5Khz seems high to my naive acoustics experience.. My understanding (from reading various threads/topics) is that the EQ is applied to tame the room modes in the low to very low freq range or until the room transition frequency.. Above 500Hz freq range, the freq response at the listening position doesn't vary much, so EQ isn't required.. Sorry if my question is incorrect..
Thank you very much for sharing the pics..
The corrected response SPL is 20dB below uncorrected response.. Does this mean that ARC is applying 20dB EQ for L-C-R.. (Am not so sure)..
liverpool_for_life
Well-Known Member
Elango,
No apologies required. We are all learning in this hobby, as far as I'm concerned. If you look at my posted uncorrected responses in room, you'll see significant deviation even above 500 Hz. The room is what it is, as of today. I hope to get enough treatments in the room to a point where I don't have to do any EQ above the room's Schroeder frequency. Let's see.
IIRC, Mark Seaton is on the record stating that correction over 1KHz is not particularly desirable. My understanding is that you effectively start fiddling with the speaker's tonality when you extend EQ out to mid/high frequencies. Like I said, as of today, if I want to up my listening levels, I have to EQ out to ARC's default. All about the trade-offs one is willing to make.
Nope. Read the EQ curve with the vertical axis starting at 0 dB. You'll see that cuts are restricted to a maximum of 9 dB, while boosts are restricted to a maximum of 6 dB. Hope that helps.
elangoas
Well-Known Member
Thank You..
Right.. Ok.. Great..
Thanks for this piece of info..
Ok cool.. I was comparing the purple line & the grey line and thought it to be huge cut..
liverpool_for_life
Well-Known Member
The installation of the projector was huge for me, seeing as the biggest size TV I’d ever owned up to that point was a 42 in diagonal. Every time I fired it up, I was in awe of the picture on screen.
Naturally, however, as the excitement wore off, the flaws came into sharper focus;-)
It began to slowly dawn on me that the room may be just as important for video as it is for audio. The matter wasn’t as simple as buying a good quality PJ which would work in a living room environment.
I had 3 windows, a door and an open space leading to another room that all allowed ambient light to flood in. And then there were the light coloured ceiling and walls.
First step was thick curtains with blackout cloth for all but one of the windows (that one was going to be taken care of as part of the front wall treatment). Much more watchable in daytime, now.
Second step was to darken the ceiling. Based on the missus’ recommendation (no black!), my acoustician suggested a really dark shade of blue (Stormy Sky on the Asian Paints shade card), along with a pinch of black.
Once the ceiling was painted, I turned on the projector and was nearly blinded! Due to the amount of ambient light in the room, I’d been running the projector in high lamp mode. With the ceiling now darkened, I needed to switch to low lamp.
The difference that painting the ceiling dark made can be illustrated by the fact that the missus herself asked for the rest of the room to be painted the same shade. Working on the principle of never looking a gift horse in the mouth, I took my chance. I think this was the point where the transformation from a living room to a virtually dedicated HT room happened;-)
Final step was to close off the open space between the HT room and the other living room. After some back and forth, we decided on a sliding door that would provide protection from light and audio leakage. Pictures in my room treatments thread.
Of course, with all of these changes, the room now “deserved” a better projector. It never ends, does it?
Naturally, however, as the excitement wore off, the flaws came into sharper focus;-)
It began to slowly dawn on me that the room may be just as important for video as it is for audio. The matter wasn’t as simple as buying a good quality PJ which would work in a living room environment.
I had 3 windows, a door and an open space leading to another room that all allowed ambient light to flood in. And then there were the light coloured ceiling and walls.
First step was thick curtains with blackout cloth for all but one of the windows (that one was going to be taken care of as part of the front wall treatment). Much more watchable in daytime, now.
Second step was to darken the ceiling. Based on the missus’ recommendation (no black!), my acoustician suggested a really dark shade of blue (Stormy Sky on the Asian Paints shade card), along with a pinch of black.
Once the ceiling was painted, I turned on the projector and was nearly blinded! Due to the amount of ambient light in the room, I’d been running the projector in high lamp mode. With the ceiling now darkened, I needed to switch to low lamp.
The difference that painting the ceiling dark made can be illustrated by the fact that the missus herself asked for the rest of the room to be painted the same shade. Working on the principle of never looking a gift horse in the mouth, I took my chance. I think this was the point where the transformation from a living room to a virtually dedicated HT room happened;-)
Final step was to close off the open space between the HT room and the other living room. After some back and forth, we decided on a sliding door that would provide protection from light and audio leakage. Pictures in my room treatments thread.
Of course, with all of these changes, the room now “deserved” a better projector. It never ends, does it?
argentum246
Active Member
Your journey to HT perfectionism looks incredible and how ur family has accommodated ur passion is commendable . Also ur writing style gives us enough fodder to rethink about what we know of AV esp the graphs and related calibrations.
Btw I hope you already have thick carpet in the room to take care of echo issues from the floor.
My living room is my HT . So all heavy furniture helped to some extent along with dual layer curtains. Do post pics of the room.
Btw I hope you already have thick carpet in the room to take care of echo issues from the floor.
My living room is my HT . So all heavy furniture helped to some extent along with dual layer curtains. Do post pics of the room.
liverpool_for_life
Well-Known Member
Agree re. family accommodating my passion. Not sure about perfectionism, but I hope to optimize what I've got.
If I hadn't read enough reviews (countless number of times!) about the Seatons prior to my purchase, I may not have made the effort I'm making to help with the room.
The vast majority of us in this hobby are blessed with imperfect rooms. Only the degree of imperfection varies. Without treating the room for audio and video, and adding EQ on top of that, you aren't going to get the most out of your equipment.
I do, but it is patently clear that adding the ceiling treatments was the bigger difference maker for me. By far.
Some pictures of my room from my room treatment thread in this post: https://www.hifivision.com/threads/...-at-reference-levels.72828/page-2#post-819721
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argentum246
Active Member
"Some pictures of my room from my room treatment thread in this post: https://www.hifivision.com/threads/...-at-reference-levels.72828/page-2#post-819721"
Thats very interesting as i have see ppl paying least attention to ceiling esp in India. Good that it changed echo in your room and is good learning for all of us. One thing i notice in you room is empty area around MLP -both left and right sides. This is enough to cause reverb. What did you do to take care of that.I saw some in US where they either have whole house carpeted or theater style sofa and wall treatments to take care of sound generated by surround speakers.
Thats very interesting as i have see ppl paying least attention to ceiling esp in India. Good that it changed echo in your room and is good learning for all of us. One thing i notice in you room is empty area around MLP -both left and right sides. This is enough to cause reverb. What did you do to take care of that.I saw some in US where they either have whole house carpeted or theater style sofa and wall treatments to take care of sound generated by surround speakers.
liverpool_for_life
Well-Known Member
argentum246,
Thanks for your comments. The ceiling is important as the general principle in room treatment is that you want to avoid two parallel and similarly reflective surfaces. Can't do much about the floor (other than the carpet I've got there), so the ceiling was the only place we could add the treatments.
As for the barren area around the MLP, haven't given it much thought to it re. surrounds. The front sound stage and the bass still need a lot of fixing in my room, so that's where our energies are going to be concentrated. Thick absorption on the front wall and some bass traps is the current thinking.
argentum246
Active Member
Good idea. Front stage is the most important part. I faced an issue where the bass was getting distorted 2 feet after the sub due to long tile area in front while was doing sub crawl. Also because my living room is HT - there were echos and random absorption. You have the biggest advantage of dedicated room. So i would say go for full carpet and lounge chairs that shall remove the ambient / room distortions and then you can properly calibrate the AVR (manual or audyssey etc) else echo from speakers shall give funny results while doing calibration.
liverpool_for_life
Well-Known Member
It may feel like a dedicated room, but it really isn’t. Which is why I haven’t brought up the topic of risers to enhance the tactile response. Yet
liverpool_for_life
Well-Known Member
Anthem released their latest iteration of their RC software, ARC Genesis, a few days back: https://www.anthemarc.com/arc-genesis/index.php
Installed and ran a quick calibration on the AVM 60. Safe to say that this is the best my system has ever sounded. Palpable difference in the LF response, and just a general sense of "Wow, that was good!" as we went through a 2 hour music listening session yesterday night. "Athini Chithini" from Thenali, in particular, floored us.
Also, a nice uptick in clarity. The missus and I watched an episode of "The Big Bang Theory" and she didn't ask for the subtitles. At all. It's a medical miracle
Installed and ran a quick calibration on the AVM 60. Safe to say that this is the best my system has ever sounded. Palpable difference in the LF response, and just a general sense of "Wow, that was good!" as we went through a 2 hour music listening session yesterday night. "Athini Chithini" from Thenali, in particular, floored us.
Also, a nice uptick in clarity. The missus and I watched an episode of "The Big Bang Theory" and she didn't ask for the subtitles. At all. It's a medical miracle
liverpool_for_life
Well-Known Member
Harwin from Volumate, Chennai was over for an audio calibration with Genesis on my AVM 60 yesterday. This was by the book (5 positions forming an X with a 3 foot radius and varying the mic height by 6 inches in either direction for the front and rear measurements).
2 profiles:
1. 5.1 with the screen down and all windows/doors closed
2. 2.1 with the screen up and doors/windows in the "for when I'm not physically in the room" mode
Added a deep bass boost of 6 dB for 40 Hz and below.
Result: The truck scene in The Dark Knight nearly blew us away at reference level. The most detail I've ever heard in my system with stereo. And the pluck of a guitar string: So impactful!
Night and day difference? Nope, but enough there to get me grinning. Again
2 profiles:
1. 5.1 with the screen down and all windows/doors closed
2. 2.1 with the screen up and doors/windows in the "for when I'm not physically in the room" mode
Added a deep bass boost of 6 dB for 40 Hz and below.
Result: The truck scene in The Dark Knight nearly blew us away at reference level. The most detail I've ever heard in my system with stereo. And the pluck of a guitar string: So impactful!
Night and day difference? Nope, but enough there to get me grinning. Again
argentum246
Active Member
@liverpool_for_life Where are the pics bro? .. what a grave crime you did .. after such a neat description and going way up in audio nirvana .. u leave no pics or demo video of the absolute bliss that you enjoy, for lesser mortals.
liverpool_for_life
Well-Known Member
Ha ha. Room is still a bit of a mess. No real cable management etc. I’ve posted some pictures in my room treatment thread.
Thank you but I’m nowhere near audio nirvana. The fact that I gush over the changes I hear show my audio naïveté more than anything else.
Treatments to the room are a WIP and my additional speakers haven’t arrived yet. One day...
liverpool_for_life
Well-Known Member
Time to post about the latest upgrade to the setup. Added 2 more (passive) surrounds from Seaton Sound to my long pending order. Yeah, I know, but I could no longer accommodate the fairly large active Sparks as side surrounds given the "other" upgrade.
I currently have a 3-seater fabric sofa in the HT room, which is increasingly complaining from the strain of accommodating the 5 of us (the other 4 in the family are also complaining: about my growing waistline). However, this upgrade was still driven totally by the coincidence of me running into an ad, posted in a private chat group, about discounts for leather recliners from a company I'd never heard of until then: Karlsson Leather. Since the ad was posted on FB, I reached out to them via their page. Was told to send my email and phone number for them to send additional details, but nothing happened for a couple of days.
I then sent another reminder, and this time, I received a call from Nihal, the founder's son, in a couple of hours. My jaw damned near hit the floor when I heard the price ranges (yes, I did ask if it was for a row or a single seat). Still, the phone call did enough for me to go do some sleuthing on the internet. And what I saw intrigued me.
More phone discussions in the next few days as I tried to understand what I needed to about leather seating and what Karlsson's differentiation was. The more I learnt, the more it became clear that I was eventually going to need to sacrifice my dream projector upgrade (JVC NX 5/7) for the seating, if I were to go this route. The feeling was I'd stumbled on to something quite special here.
Eventually, I ended up talking with the founder, Sajith. The first thing that strikes you about him is how passionate he is about the business. Not the money primarily, but the product. He is so driven by product quality. Clearly takes a lot of pride in what comes out of their shop. In a market like ours that is so driven by price, it was refreshing to talk to someone that is intrinsically motivated by excellence: seemingly in everything, from choice of materials to quality of craftsmanship to service thereafter.
I wanted 7 seats (2 rows of 4 and 3). That was my dream. Sajith was quite clear about what challenges I'd face with that arrangement. Here was a guy willing to talk a potential customer down from their proposed purchase. They want your business sure, but they also care that you're happy with what you do end up purchasing. Lot of back and forth as well as discussions with other people that had actual experience with recliners (I've never owned a piece of leather furniture in my life, until now). And, of course, with the missus.
I had a budget and features I wanted, and it became clear that we couldn't make the two work. The feature I wanted put the price at which he was willing to sell beyond my reach. At this point, I must say that Sajith was extremely passionate in his discussions, but always civil. He understood my passion for the HT hobby, so he was willing to add value in other ways that he felt would actually make a difference given my usage of the theater. He understood the value of what he was offering, but I couldn't afford it. Looked like the end of the road.
However, the next day, it became clear, even to me, that I'd not be able to do 2 rows of seating in this non-dedicated space. Access to kitchen, issues with upcoming Atmos for second row, loss of space given that a minimum of 3 feet was needed between the 2 rows of seating all added up to multiple rows being a non-starter. So, the seating was back on the table, if you'll pardon me. 1 row. 5 seats. Any compromises needed to be made elsewhere. And they were, eventually. We will only have ~2 ft on the side aisles once the seating is in place.
More discussions, seemingly never-ending. Really, really hard to make choices about things that are so much down to subjective preference. Extremely thankful to everyone that provided input that allowed me to finally make the decision to proceed with the purchase having never sat on one of their sofas.
Still vacillating between pillow back and foam back, but we'll be going with a single, straight row of 5 seats of real, full-grain black leather (Nappa) with a single motor and a manually adjustable neck rest. I know I haven't addressed all of the issues wrt seating here, so if anyone's got any questions, please feel free to ask. I know I asked a lot before deciding on this. The seating is custom made and work will begin (leather has been allocated to my order, yay!) once the lock down restrictions are lifted.
The model below is our most likely choice:
I currently have a 3-seater fabric sofa in the HT room, which is increasingly complaining from the strain of accommodating the 5 of us (the other 4 in the family are also complaining: about my growing waistline). However, this upgrade was still driven totally by the coincidence of me running into an ad, posted in a private chat group, about discounts for leather recliners from a company I'd never heard of until then: Karlsson Leather. Since the ad was posted on FB, I reached out to them via their page. Was told to send my email and phone number for them to send additional details, but nothing happened for a couple of days.
I then sent another reminder, and this time, I received a call from Nihal, the founder's son, in a couple of hours. My jaw damned near hit the floor when I heard the price ranges (yes, I did ask if it was for a row or a single seat). Still, the phone call did enough for me to go do some sleuthing on the internet. And what I saw intrigued me.
More phone discussions in the next few days as I tried to understand what I needed to about leather seating and what Karlsson's differentiation was. The more I learnt, the more it became clear that I was eventually going to need to sacrifice my dream projector upgrade (JVC NX 5/7) for the seating, if I were to go this route. The feeling was I'd stumbled on to something quite special here.
Eventually, I ended up talking with the founder, Sajith. The first thing that strikes you about him is how passionate he is about the business. Not the money primarily, but the product. He is so driven by product quality. Clearly takes a lot of pride in what comes out of their shop. In a market like ours that is so driven by price, it was refreshing to talk to someone that is intrinsically motivated by excellence: seemingly in everything, from choice of materials to quality of craftsmanship to service thereafter.
I wanted 7 seats (2 rows of 4 and 3). That was my dream. Sajith was quite clear about what challenges I'd face with that arrangement. Here was a guy willing to talk a potential customer down from their proposed purchase. They want your business sure, but they also care that you're happy with what you do end up purchasing. Lot of back and forth as well as discussions with other people that had actual experience with recliners (I've never owned a piece of leather furniture in my life, until now). And, of course, with the missus.
I had a budget and features I wanted, and it became clear that we couldn't make the two work. The feature I wanted put the price at which he was willing to sell beyond my reach. At this point, I must say that Sajith was extremely passionate in his discussions, but always civil. He understood my passion for the HT hobby, so he was willing to add value in other ways that he felt would actually make a difference given my usage of the theater. He understood the value of what he was offering, but I couldn't afford it. Looked like the end of the road.
However, the next day, it became clear, even to me, that I'd not be able to do 2 rows of seating in this non-dedicated space. Access to kitchen, issues with upcoming Atmos for second row, loss of space given that a minimum of 3 feet was needed between the 2 rows of seating all added up to multiple rows being a non-starter. So, the seating was back on the table, if you'll pardon me. 1 row. 5 seats. Any compromises needed to be made elsewhere. And they were, eventually. We will only have ~2 ft on the side aisles once the seating is in place.
More discussions, seemingly never-ending. Really, really hard to make choices about things that are so much down to subjective preference. Extremely thankful to everyone that provided input that allowed me to finally make the decision to proceed with the purchase having never sat on one of their sofas.
Still vacillating between pillow back and foam back, but we'll be going with a single, straight row of 5 seats of real, full-grain black leather (Nappa) with a single motor and a manually adjustable neck rest. I know I haven't addressed all of the issues wrt seating here, so if anyone's got any questions, please feel free to ask. I know I asked a lot before deciding on this. The seating is custom made and work will begin (leather has been allocated to my order, yay!) once the lock down restrictions are lifted.
The model below is our most likely choice:
Wharfedale Linton Heritage Speakers in Red Mahogany finish at a Special Offer Price. BUY now before the price increase.
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