Help me to choose between these MEGA MONSTERS!!!
- Thread starter rishiguru
- Start date
Atif Hussain
New Member
Srinath_seshadri
New Member
These are very new models. I doubt I'll be getting these anytime soon, I typically buy from craigslist pretty inexpensively. I will see if someone I know has these and try to borrow it.
And I have a similar one that is a dynaudio home made contraption I may build in the near future. Might be worth trying that.
Cool.
Srinath.
Srinath_seshadri
New Member
I can get those monitor 50/60's pretty cheap, and a few others of its ilk.
I doubt these are anywhere near as good as the LSIm705/707 - curved walls and internal transmission line and separate mid/tweeter chambers put it in a league far above the polk's I can round up, but I should get an idea when I try them. I have a nice collection of dynaudio soft domes and woofers, I now know what they should be used for.
Cool.
Srinath.
I doubt these are anywhere near as good as the LSIm705/707 - curved walls and internal transmission line and separate mid/tweeter chambers put it in a league far above the polk's I can round up, but I should get an idea when I try them. I have a nice collection of dynaudio soft domes and woofers, I now know what they should be used for.
Cool.
Srinath.
Srinath_seshadri
New Member
On the Z9, there seems to be a 20+ dB difference between my Wii into the V-aux and say the tuner.
I don't know is the Wii that low voltage output ? But on other amps its not so.
Cool.
Srinath.
I don't know is the Wii that low voltage output ? But on other amps its not so.
Cool.
Srinath.
Atif Hussain
New Member
I feel there is something severely wrong with your z9. Either you auto calibration is completely messed up or there are some serious issues with your z9. For me -30 dB is more than enough for general listening; z9 goes to +16.5 dB. I also feel not having the original setup microphone may be one of the causes.
Srinath_seshadri
New Member
I'm thinking so as well. Cos I have 2 Z9's and they are both about the same gutless is that department.
Cool.
Srinath.
Cool.
Srinath.
Atif Hussain
New Member
Hi guys I am in need of some help here. I am not technically savvy so posting for my friend who has recently acquired a few years old used Yamaha avr and a used Sherwood A965 power amp. The avr model is rx-a3000, most probably their top model of 2010 with 7.1 channel pre-outs. The Sherwood is a 7 channel power amp and very heavy and powerful. Now related to the problem when he is connecting the 7 channel RCA pre-outs from yamaha to the sherwoods 7 channel RCA inputs the sound seems to be very lean and soft and lacking dynamics. So we thought to check the power amp with my marantz sr6009. With marantzs RCA pre-outs connected the sherwood is still acting more or less the same with a very lean sound and lacking foundation. Then we arrived to the conclusion the power amp is at fault as it is behaving under powered with two different types of avrs. Then we thought to give it a final try with my monster Yamaha dsp-z9 and connected its RCA pre-outs to sherwood. To our surprise with z9 driving the Sherwood, the power amp now opened up with muscular dynamics and super solid foundation. I also noted the power output the Sherwood is producing at half the volume level of a3000 or sr6009 is what dsp-z9 is attaining at quarter of its volume. This is strange as we are using the pre-outs from all these avrs and they should be the same I believe. Now we are completely puzzled and need help as to how to solve this issue. Any guidance will be of great help.
Sherwood A965
http://seriousaudioblog.blogspot.in/2012/04/thoughts-on-amplifiers-generally-and.html
Sherwood A965
http://seriousaudioblog.blogspot.in/2012/04/thoughts-on-amplifiers-generally-and.html
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spirovious
Well-Known Member
Well Atif, Its mostly due to preout voltage not matching with that of poweramp.I found same when connected Rotel poweramp to Yamaha 667.Yamaha sounds more dynamic.Yes with Rotel I can feel increase in power,but it sound cold.If I connect DCB1 as pre, rotel sounds musical.I did try marantz SR6006 connecting to rotel,sound was better than Yamaha pre,but not best.
Yamaha 667 has 1V preout and sr6006 has 1.2V.
Just check this-
Amplifier Voltage Gain Explained Matching Amp to Preamp | Audioholics
Also it depends on preout circuit of AVR.A poorly designed will not give the best output result.
Yamaha 667 has 1V preout and sr6006 has 1.2V.
Just check this-
Amplifier Voltage Gain Explained Matching Amp to Preamp | Audioholics
Also it depends on preout circuit of AVR.A poorly designed will not give the best output result.
Atif Hussain
New Member
Hi spiro, I went through dsp z9 owner manual and it says the same 1V preout of rx a3000. My Sr6009 has a higher 1.2V. I cannot understand why there is this difference even though both are Yamahas and marantz have more voltage. The z9 with its 1 volt sound like 10 volts with this power amp. Hope rishiguru or others gives us a peep and provide an explanation.
Srinath_seshadri
New Member
Nothing about a Z9 is obvious or logical. This may not be related - but could help - maybe.
The Z9 pre amp and dac section are very very very very good. The amp generates a lot less heat from the amp section than from the pre/dac section. My hot running Z9 makes a lot less heat in pure direct, and the cold running Z9 - I'm yet to try it in pure direct.
I have a proceed amp 5 that in the 2+ years I owned it I had no clue what people hear in it. Thought it was a POS that cost like $8-9000 new. I also had a amp 3 I summarily dismissed and sold. Then a couple months ago I ran the proceed amp 5 out of a nad 1155 preamp to a carver amazing III. Wow, eye opening. It sucked with the proceed AVP, but the nad lit it up.
In short - there is a synergy between components. I'm yet to find an amp that will light up my NS1000's. I am running it on a denon 2807 and with the tweeters and mids turned down -3 dB it seem to be good, but no where near what its reputation would bear.
I have also run many amps/speakers on the "ideal" setup, and still said - yuck. Like a Pioneer sx1250. I never was able to get warmed up to its rather mellow sound.
Cool.
Srinath.
The Z9 pre amp and dac section are very very very very good. The amp generates a lot less heat from the amp section than from the pre/dac section. My hot running Z9 makes a lot less heat in pure direct, and the cold running Z9 - I'm yet to try it in pure direct.
I have a proceed amp 5 that in the 2+ years I owned it I had no clue what people hear in it. Thought it was a POS that cost like $8-9000 new. I also had a amp 3 I summarily dismissed and sold. Then a couple months ago I ran the proceed amp 5 out of a nad 1155 preamp to a carver amazing III. Wow, eye opening. It sucked with the proceed AVP, but the nad lit it up.
In short - there is a synergy between components. I'm yet to find an amp that will light up my NS1000's. I am running it on a denon 2807 and with the tweeters and mids turned down -3 dB it seem to be good, but no where near what its reputation would bear.
I have also run many amps/speakers on the "ideal" setup, and still said - yuck. Like a Pioneer sx1250. I never was able to get warmed up to its rather mellow sound.
Cool.
Srinath.
rishiguru
Well-Known Member
There are no issues with the Yamaha RX-A3000 or your Marantz SR6009. And the Sherwood Newcastle A-965 multi-channel power amplifier is just fine. The culprit here is the mismatch between these AVRs pre-amp output voltages & impedances to that of power amplifiers required input voltage & impedance to operate at full power. Lets consider the RX-A3000 first. Its pre-outs (RCA unbalanced) can produce an output voltage equal to 1 volt when the output impedance is 1,200 ohms. This is the general standard for pre-outs (1 volt @ 1,200 ohms) followed by every mass market consumer electronics companies now-a-days.
Yamaha RX-A3000 [AVR, Released: 2010, MSRP: US $1,800]
Front View
No gold plated Input/ Output terminals here, even if it was a TOTL
Let us also grossly simplify the activity of the pre-amplifier part of RX-A3000 which has to control this output voltage of 1 volt through pre-outs. If you lower the volume of this AVR to zero, it will have zero voltage through pre-outs and the power amplifiers attached to it will produce no sound through the speakers. As a rule of thumb the lower the output impedance from the pre-outs to attain this 1 volt output voltage, the better it will be able to drive difficult loads. The RX-A3000 will be happy driving any power amplifier to its full power with an input sensitivity of 1 volt and an input impedance normally 100 times or higher that of pre-outs output impedance. So any power amplifier having an input impedance of 120,000 ohms or higher will be fine for RX-A3000. Again by rule of thumb the higher the input impedance of the power amplifier the less difficult it is to drive. Power amplifiers generally vary between 10,000 ohms to 500,000 ohms of input impedance in the market. So the RX-A3000 should properly drive any power amplifier ranging between 120,000 to 500,000 ohms with an input sensitivity of 1 volt to full power. But it will be really difficult to drive a much tougher load, say a power amplifier with only 50,000 ohms input impedance at its full power. The conclusions from all this is that current generation AV amplifiers/ AVRs are not designed to drive every tough loads through pre-outs. The pre-outs are an add-on feature to provide extra functionality in AVRs, not the primary concern for which they are built.
Yamaha CX-A5000 [AV Processor, Released: 2013, MSRP: US $3,000]
Front
Notice the beautifully crafted solid aluminium front and side panels adding finesse and strength to the chassis
Beautifully crafted top panel, selective use of gold plated Input and Output terminals
Yamaha CX-A5000 + Yamaha MX-A5000
A dedicated AV processor like Yamaha CX-A5000 on the other hand is designed to drive almost all power amplifiers on the market through its pre-outs. It is its core functionality. To drive tough power amplifiers it implements elaborate and expensive circuit design schemes with higher quality components and expensive op-amps to obtain the same output voltage of RX-A3000, 1 volt, but at a much lower output impedance of just 470 ohms though RCA unbalanced pre-outs. So the CX-A5000 is capable to drive any power amplifier ranging from 47,000 to 500,000 ohms to its full power. The Sherwood Newcastle A-965 is one such tough power amplifier with input sensitivity of 1 volt having an input impedance of 47,000 ohms. This implies any AV processor/ AV amplifier/ AVR capable to deliver 1 volt at (47000/100) = 470 ohms output impedance would easily drive the A-965 to its limit. To me CX-A5000 is much more a suitable candidate to drive this power amplifier with proper synergy than RX-A3000. It is also to note the matching Yamaha MX-A5000 power amplifier for CX-A5000 has identical input sensitivity & impedance ratings to that of Sherwood A-965.
Yamaha DSP-Z9 [AV Amplifier, Released: 2004, MSRP: US $4,500]
Front View with open front panel
The Guns of Navarone: All guns are gold plated, the eleven pairs on the top are of jewelry grade
Ubers like Yamaha DSP-Z9 are a different beast altogether and should not be compared with current generation AV amplifiers/ AVRs in the first place. Ubers represent an amalgamation of a true AV processor with a true multi-channel power amplifier in a single robust and beautifully crafted chassis. There are no cutting corners here to save money. As such DSP-Z9 shows the trait of a proper AV processor with the pre-outs generating an output voltage of 1 volt at just 500 ohms output impedance. Near there with CX-A5000s 470 ohms and capable to drive any power amplifier ranging between 50,000 to 500,000 ohms with an input sensitivity of 1 volt to full power. This is the reason why the synergy between your DSP-Z9 and Sherwood A-965 is so good and feels like the power amplifier is playing with ample foundation. The DSP-Z9 is simply driving the A-965 much better. DSP-Z9 uses many high performance and expensive op-amps like Analog Devices OP275 in differential configuration in its pre amplifier stage. Nine years down the line CX-A5000 draws inspiration from it and implements the same OP275 in its pre amplifier stage.
Ask your friend to go for a dedicated AV processor, fresh or used, capable to deliver 1 volt with output impedance less or equal to 470 ohms. I believe this will do the trick.
Analog Devices OP275 [Operational Amplifer]
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spirovious
Well-Known Member
As I said,electronic components make difference.The signal path,DAC chain will make differences.I searched Yamaha SW pre out uses op-amp. So adding extra path may change SQ.
Srinath_seshadri
New Member
And another twist in my Z9 tale.
I ran my dvd player into optical into the z9, and its louder @ -40 than with RCA's @ -20.
It is one odd amp. I've never has to play with the volume so much on any amp ever as a matter of daily listening.
Cool.
Srinath.
I ran my dvd player into optical into the z9, and its louder @ -40 than with RCA's @ -20.
It is one odd amp. I've never has to play with the volume so much on any amp ever as a matter of daily listening.
Cool.
Srinath.
Atif Hussain
New Member
As expected a great post with deep insights. Cleared all our doubts that we used to have. Thanks rishiguru once more maybe for the thousandth time from clearing all doubts regarding the pre power mismatch. I am not so technically savvy person so it took me a few reads to properly understand your post. Now I know it is not only the voltage to look out for but also the impedance. My friend was in lookout for a dsp-z9 but all knows this mama is not easy to come by so settled for pre power route. The logic was to get the sound of z9 in another top Yamaha model rx-a3000 with hdmi and as recent avrs lack power to use a power amp. A logic that miserably failed as we found out 1 volt of dsp-Z9 is ten times more than the 1 volt of rx-a3000 or even 1.2 volt of my sr6009. We will now settle for a good old musical avr or a used av preamplifier with matching specs as he does not want to let go of the Sherwood. How about the dsp-az1? You once said in one of your previous posts it is quite musical and my friend have an option to acquire az1. As ever and I may be asking a lot a technical lowdown on it will be fantastic. Any even an a3000 vs z9 or comparing all these uber avrs. To me the list never ends. Sorry for being so greedy.
In the mean time we had quite a few listening sessions and made comparisons between these two avrs. I liked the richer and fuller sound of sr6009 while my friend went for what he thinks a more accurate and analytical sounding a3000. To each his is own but in the end both are refined avrs and top models of their time. It is only when we bring Z9 into the equation the other two bows down and begs for mercy. Z9 and a3000 sounds so different you will be hard pressed to believe they belong to the same Yamaha family. Z9 sounds like - less analytical, more powerful, better mid band, I mean vocals are much much better projected with better resolution throughout and very very refined treble. Z9 sounds very different to above two avrs and some say it sound like a denon and you said before it was inspired by denon a1sra. But I have heard a1sra and yes both have the same powerful feel with stonking bass but I felt z9 has more resolved sound and more musical of the two. Again to each his own. The cx-a5000 and mx-a5000 pair looks stunningly beautiful. Never knew Yamaha makes a pre power combo. What about the power amp? I combo may be a match for z9.
In the mean time we had quite a few listening sessions and made comparisons between these two avrs. I liked the richer and fuller sound of sr6009 while my friend went for what he thinks a more accurate and analytical sounding a3000. To each his is own but in the end both are refined avrs and top models of their time. It is only when we bring Z9 into the equation the other two bows down and begs for mercy. Z9 and a3000 sounds so different you will be hard pressed to believe they belong to the same Yamaha family. Z9 sounds like - less analytical, more powerful, better mid band, I mean vocals are much much better projected with better resolution throughout and very very refined treble. Z9 sounds very different to above two avrs and some say it sound like a denon and you said before it was inspired by denon a1sra. But I have heard a1sra and yes both have the same powerful feel with stonking bass but I felt z9 has more resolved sound and more musical of the two. Again to each his own. The cx-a5000 and mx-a5000 pair looks stunningly beautiful. Never knew Yamaha makes a pre power combo. What about the power amp? I combo may be a match for z9.
rishiguru
Well-Known Member
rishiguru
Well-Known Member
Hello everybody
would like to ask Rishiguru for his opinion about Denon AVP A1HDCI +POE A1HDCI. Can you say something good or bad about this pair.
Thanks in advance
Never heard them, hence cannot comment. Spec wise they look great.
vikas pathak
Active Member
I had Denon A1sr in excellent condition. Can we use it as poweramp to connect to my yamaha Aventage 3040 to drive front speakers or atmos speakers. As yamaha had only 9 channel of Amplification & My setup is 7.1.4.
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