Help needed with Room Acoustics (DIY or Ready to Use)

[sud98]

Interesting discussion here. How and from where can we get the kit that was used to measure the room? Have you made or got links to any videos of how to go about working with the software?

Mash

Sent from my Redmi Note 3

UMik is a callibrated mic, Google for more details.

REW is a software from hometheatershack.

I plan to do the same for my room through a FM in Blr who has used both. If you are interested, we can do it together, as more heads can help.

 

[drkrack]

Interesting discussion here. How and from where can we get the kit that was used to measure the room? Have you made or got links to any videos of how to go about working with the software?

Mash

Sent from my Redmi Note 3

Dirac has a 15days free full version trial, you need to register on the site and get a download link..
REW is free from GIk acoustics website -

There are good numbers of YouTube videos for both softwares to help you in case you are interested. Needs one to be slightly technically oriented to run it, nevertheless not a rocket science anyway.

You'd need a better quality mic, preferably USB type to get adequate results.

@elangoas
My room already has two subwoofer-setup, but both of them are different, the lowest powered one is more than enough to cause unbearable boominess and rattling of windows etc.
Precision in bass frequencies and powerful coherent bass are two different aspects which are easy to be confused with.

 

[MaSh]

Dirac has a 15days free full version trial, you need to register on the site and get a download link..
REW is free from GIk acoustics website -

There are good numbers of YouTube videos for both softwares to help you in case you are interested. Needs one to be slightly technically oriented to run it, nevertheless not a rocket science anyway.

You'd need a better quality mic, preferably USB type to get adequate results.

@elangoas
My room already has two subwoofer-setup, but both of them are different, the lowest powered one is more than enough to cause unbearable boominess and rattling of windows etc.
Precision in bass frequencies and powerful coherent bass are two different aspects which are easy to be confused with.

Excellent. Will Google it up later today. Thank you for the information.

UMik is a callibrated mic, Google for more details.

REW is a software from hometheatershack.

I plan to do the same for my room through a FM in Blr who has used both. If you are interested, we can do it together, as more heads can help.

Absolutely. I would love to join in. Would a marantz Audyssey mic work by any chance? I am in town only for a week, and would be back only in the second week of January.

MaSh



Sent from my Redmi Note 3

 

[drkrack]

That suggests you have not tried any treatment in your room which leads me to infer that you have not heard tuneful bass in your room ( your room and arrangement
from your pics was very similar to mine).

No amount of reading (or my posting) will show you the difference. When you do listen to it (boom free bass) it will blow your mind as to what you are missing.

Btw it is perfectly possible to get musical bass without a sub. Or two

Ciao
Gr

This is the work in progress, last 3 days we have reached this stage. Quite quick in my opinion.

1. Acoustic foam for 2"

2. Today's position, after adding woodwool panels - the fibers are tightly bound and inert. Fibers Doesn't seem to loosen and cause respiratory allergies in the future as well. No need use gloves non toxic, no smell etc..

Front wall, only fabric punching remaining.

Back wall, covering the two corners as much as possible.

4" is the final effective thickness.

Performed artnovion measurements after paneling, whatever it's worth...

Sound is generally appearing more rounded with no undue edges, more pleasing to the ears, it doesn't seem to cause fatigue, even if I were to listen for longer duration. Bass is adequate, less boomy more precise in my opinion ; let's see what objective measurements say after completing. I have made some 6 plain ready panels to hang to sidewall reflection points if required later.
Any other inputs?

 

[sud98]

Any plans for the ceiling?

Also, you could look at putting the panels for the door too.

 

[drkrack]

Any plans for the ceiling?

Also, you could look at putting the panels for the door too.

Doors are already going to get covered with acoustic foam and fabric.
Have some free panels made already, will use them for side reflection points , I might consider hanging some from the ceiling too.. I just want to check before proceeding , as it shouldn't make the room totally dull.
any specific suggestions for ceiling treatment ? Also can you infer anything from artnovion graphs ?

 

[sound_cycle]

This is the work in progress, last 3 days we have reached this stage. Quite quick in my opinion.
<snip>let's see what objective measurements say after completing. I have made some 6 plain ready panels to hang to sidewall reflection points if required later.

Super quick !

Will call you once back in Hyd.

I don't think the ceiling is an issue in your room - from the POV of early reflections. Try the calibrated audio string method (had linked earlier, cannot from mobile) and you will be able to confirm that easily. IAC LEDR Over worked out nice and arcy in your rig.

ciao
gr

 

[manoj.p]

Interesting discussion here. How and from where can we get the kit that was used to measure the room? Have you made or got links to any videos of how to go about working with the software?

Mash

Sent from my Redmi Note 3

Umik-1 https://www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement/umik-1
How to get started with REW. First post contains important links.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...surement-techniques-how-interpret-graphs.html

 

[manoj.p]

Multiple Subs will help in uneven distribution of Bass frequencies in whole of the listening area, the quality of bass response isn't going to change much in my opinion, If it is Boomy with one Sub, it'll continue to be boomy when you add another sub, only the boom will be felt equally throughout the listening area. When we are trying to figure out methods control the boom caused by only FS and Sub combo by DIRAC filters or acoustic treatment etc .. adding another Sub would unlikely to be a solution. Precision of bass (that is faithful & correct reproduction of bass frequencies) is a different issue than unequal distribution bass in listening area in which case adding another sub in a diagonally opposite area will help in my opinion.

I think speaker and furniture repositioning is a simplest & inexpensive solution for enhancing the listening experience and everyone should experiment for better acoustics. Adding a DAC is definitely worth it, which I'm experiencing with my M8. Again incremental value of expensive cables is a issue which I'm not convinced about, I have ordered for Panels and work is started will update you with pictures soon.

Multiple subwoofers work in the way of mode cancellations. Boomy bass is caused by room modes and those are excited by placement of a speaker (subwoofer is also a speaker). If you put a sub in corner, it will excite all the room modes. If you put another sub in another corner, it will also excite the same room modes, but those will be out of phase with first one. When these two sound waves meet each other, they will cancel the mode, hence effectively getting rid of the boom. When you get rid of the room modes/boom, that is not overpowering other frequencies. Now you can hear other details. Multiple subs also help with seat to seat consistency. In this scenario, electronic eq also works better. If a peak occurs in multiple seats, Dirac or Audyssey is more likely to apply the filter and pull it down.

Now, coming to quality of the bass. Above technic will remove the room effect on the sound signature. That itself is an improvement in sound quality or bass quality. You are hearing more of the speaker and less of the room. IF your subwoofer has wooly bass or not enough bass to begin with, that will not be helped by multiple subs. If you have 2 crappy subs, multiple subs will ensure you have crappy bass in multiple seats.

 

[sound_cycle]

This is the work in progress, last 3 days we have reached this stage.<snip>
Sound is generally appearing more rounded with no undue edges, more pleasing to the ears,

Is it all completed ? Listening impressions/ pics please, when you have the time.

ciao
gr

 

[drkrack]

Is it all completed ? Listening impressions/ pics please, when you have the time.

ciao
gr

Thanks for the reminder, I was about to upload the current status, its 95% complete now, only they have run out of stock for the fabric - should be finished by the end of next week. I've covered the side walls with matching wallpaper as well. See the pictures. @Sound_cycle You're welcome for completing our Post acoustic treatment objective measurements anytime sir.

Coming to the sound ; it is almost like rebirth for the speakers, the muddling is almost gone, vocals and high frequency sounds are very much clear now. The details and accuracy of the bass is simply superb. It is a treat to listen and I'm loving it. I have checked with cheaper BA26 also which sound so premium in a acoustically treated room. The details are very good on x2200w AVR itself, though the addition of a dedicated DAC makes a difference but the gap between with and without a dedicated DAC has narrowed considerably.

I played with the other cheapest speakers available at home ; like desktop speakers, Bluetooth speakers and even on board speakers of iPhone. They all sound remarkably better now. The good audio depends lot on room acoustics, as much as the electronics.

I have already posted the artnovion app reverberation measurements after panels & it is very clear that the mid and high frequency reverberation has reduced considerably, even the boom is reduced to a greater extent, all in all its a very pleasant sounding now. By the way I ran the artnovion app in almost all possible locations like other rooms, living room, hotel lobby, etc in every small to medium sized rooms the mid and high frequency reverberation is almost consistently present (much similar to the one in my untreated room posted earlier). If you can imagine an arc around your fronts, first reflection points, floor in front, and the back of sitting area - you need to cover these with absorption panels to get a very good sonically appreciable difference. Your electronics and drivers do sound their best when you get correct basic acoustics and FS placement. You can decide about upgrading later, this is a one time investment and very well worth it.

I had been to Jacob's place at Kochi, though the acoustic treatment is minimal there but, the carefully planned diamond shaped demo room - nullifies the reverberation effects and widens the sound stage enormously. The rethms won't sound comparably good in our rooms I feel (purely subjective speculation). "Psychoacoustics" in Jacob's own words have a good influence on how one perceives sounds. I've kept the speakers upgrade on hold currently as my polks seems to have taken a rebirth, the whole acoustics finished during my visit to Kochi & I couldn't believe my ears after coming back.

 

[sound_cycle]

@Sound_cycle You're welcome<snip>The details and accuracy of the bass is simply superb. It is a treat to listen and I'm loving it.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::

Congrats, it looks really good and would love to come over and get a listen. Will PM.

ciao
gr

 

[dnshrajn]

@drkrack,
can you give me more details on the materials u have used? the make/model or specs and the cost for the accoustic foam and the woodwool board

 

[drkrack]

@drkrack,
can you give me more details on the materials u have used? the make/model or specs and the cost for the accoustic foam and the woodwool board

Its a woodwool board, covered by mesh, acoustic foam and decorative cloth - total thickness is 4.5 inches. Since I employed the professional services it costed around Rs 480 per square feet everything included.

Sourcing a woodwool board should not be difficult, it costs around Rs 220 per sft. It should be much cheaper if bought in bulk, the retailers don't entertain our relatively smallish requirements.
Hope this helps

Sent from my Redmi Note 3 using Tapatalk

 

[HIEND-Raja]

Hi drkrack, I have HIEND audiophile system as follow speaker: TANNOY - GRF Memory - HE (15' driver) duel concentric speaker drive by tube mono block 845B push pull amp. Find attached, I have installed Primacoustic - London kit 10 at speaker reflection points, rear speaker corners have bass traps and listening position has bass diffusers as well as celling and floor have carpet, still not get real details sound, there was something missing I can't explain. Very interesting you said in thread after done acoustic in your room even desktop speaker sound you heard very good. Have done acoustic on four side wall and celling? Thanks

 

[drkrack]

Hi drkrack, I have HIEND audiophile system as follow speaker: TANNOY - GRF Memory - HE (15' driver) duel concentric speaker drive by tube mono block 845B push pull amp. Find attached, I have installed Primacoustic - London kit 10 at speaker reflection points, rear speaker corners have bass traps and listening position has bass diffusers as well as celling and floor have carpet, still not get real details sound, there was something missing I can't explain. Very interesting you said in thread after done acoustic in your room even desktop speaker sound you heard very good. Have done acoustic on four side wall and celling? Thanks

You have a very good setup to begin with, some added information will be helpful. 1. What's the size of your listening area,
2. other than a lazy boy & a two seater (which is visible in the pictures) what other furniture you're having in the room?
3. Lacking audio resolution is a more general expression, I'd like to know what specific issues you are facing with say hifreq, or bass frequencies etc.
You can install Artnovion app(preferably with iOS) and run it and post the results screenshot here. So a basic objective assessment can be made.

The prime acoustic 10 has a fiberglass absorber with Max thickness of 2" with taller panels, the square 1" thick panels are less likely to be useful. I did lot of search about such panel solutions but a uniform acoustic treatment covering of any wall gives much better results in my opinion. Having said that many smallish recording studios use such panel kits successfully. I have covered front and back walls only and made independent panels to cover the side reflection points. The result is much better than what was before.

Just two observations from the pictures you've posted, keeping some items on the Speakers should be avoided whenever possible. Your drivers are quite huge ; they'd need much more breathing space I'd experiment by pulling them to the front inch by inch and facing the opposite wall directly instead of facing the listener could help you. Please experiment with speaker position you'll be greatly benefitted.The inputs of senior audiophile like @Sound_cycle was quite helpful in my decision making.
Hope this helps

 

[HIEND-Raja]

Room size: W 11' X L14' X H 9', inside room one small size side table and listening seats. Please note, there are 2 French window in this room one behind TV another located left listening position (both are close foam and curtain) I have iPhone 4s not supporting Artnovion app. I will try re-positioning speaker as you said as well as remove all items from top of speaker. I had check some acoustic company in Chennai, they said complete room need to even acoustic! they quote 2L? Do I need acoustic on 4walls including celling?
Primacoustic have 3" thick and fiberglass, per side 4 panels installed on speaker reflection points. what material I can use for acoustic?

 

[Hari Iyer]

This is what i did last week for my Metronome stereo speakers in my listening room,
1. Measured left and right speakers separately in my listening area using REW 5.18 version.
2. Apply Generic EQ and set the Target levels, Filter Task, Creating filters, Gain / cut and filter Q for a peaking filter.
3. Used a Peace parametric equalizer and applied the calculated EQ values from REW to peace parametric equalizer (this can be done independently for all the 7.1 channels if required at your listening position) by manually entering the frequencies, gain/cut, Filter Q for a peaking filter.
4. Adjust gains and other setup to give a flat Freq response (as seen by my room) to feed to my power amplifier.

Subjective listeing:
- More details in the mids and highs without the usual fatigue
- Less chesty bass with male vocals very natural with no over-emphasis
- Deep low much balanced with the rest of the freq response
- More neutral response for the overall sound stage.

I think even without much of room treatment the goal of flat freq response at your listening position can be obtained using this method. The problem would get compounded when multiple speakers are firing at the same listeing position and the freq flatness would typically not apply. some subjective adjustment will still be required after the final fine tuning imo.

I also strongly believe that for the EQ to work optimally the speakers should be reasonable flat response and you only applying EQ for the room effect. ie. most part of the EQ should be applied to freq less than 400Hz and minimum EQ to mids and highs for better Q of the filter. I would suggest absorption material if at all required for mids and highs rather than EQing. Another method is to use the reflections from the wall to your advantage and trying to create a diffused sound stage by modifying the toeing of your speaker. My Metronome is best placed with they parallel to the wall with no toeing for perfect center image and wide sound stage. If you add toeing, then the mid range presence increases with too much of center imaging at the cost of sound stage which i dont prefer. I would rather prefer some reflections from side-wall for a more diffused sound stage.

Thanks for looking.

 

[HIEND-Raja]

Hi drkrack, I have one question, why you have acoustic on your rear and front walls only? why you not acoustic left and right walls? I have plan acoustic on four walls (PU foam + Wood wool & cover fabric) ceiling plant to use wood wool tiles or mineral finer tiles, do you have any advise?

 

[drkrack]

Hi drkrack, I have one question, why you have acoustic on your rear and front walls only? why you not acoustic left and right walls? I have plan acoustic on four walls (PU foam + Wood wool & cover fabric) ceiling plant to use wood wool tiles or mineral finer tiles, do you have any advise?

We myself and @Sound_cycle did some qualitative measurements using GEq which revealed the room mode varied from very bright to dead dull depending upon the furniture (treadmill), speakers positioning etc.

We were concerned that, Covering all the four walls and the ceiling might leave the room dead dull sounding which would be much worse than "No Acoustic treatment" at all. So I planned to cover the front and back walls first and see for the response. The sounds in the room sound audibly very good pending some objective measurements as of now. I have kept four portable panels on either side to cover for sidewall reflection points and seems more than enough currently.

All routine sounds from even the non audiophile devices sound quite better in this room so I'm mostly going to leave it at that. There's slight conflicting advice on covering absorbers at sidewall reflection points ; some advocate adding diffusers instead, to virtually augment the sound stage. I feel that's reasonable and I'll consider adding diffusers treatment to the sidewalls and the ceiling later on when time permits.

Room size: W 11' X L14' X H 9', inside room one small size side table and listening seats. Please note, there are 2 French window in this room one behind TV another located left listening position (both are close foam and curtain) I have iPhone 4s not supporting Artnovion app. I will try re-positioning speaker as you said as well as remove all items from top of speaker. I had check some acoustic company in Chennai, they said complete room need to even acoustic! they quote 2L? Do I need acoustic on 4walls including celling?
Primacoustic have 3" thick and fiberglass, per side 4 panels installed on speaker reflection points. what material I can use for acoustic?

My room is slightly bigger than yours and I was quoted 2.2L for covering everything ; since the most of the professional acoustic people try to control reverberation effects to the minimum they'd advise you to cover 100% of the surface irrespective of the room.

Either, They don't have enough time to customize the acoustic treatment for each room or they don't have enough knowledge to do the acoustic measurements - most of them behave like erroneously specialized interior designers than dedicated sound engineers... Of course budget does matter, I got a quote of 25k for one time room visit and suggestions by a professional sound engineer which I felt was quite unreasonable. So, you get what you pay for.

I'd suggest not to go with absorbers on all the 5 surfaces (I'm including the ceiling) ; instead diffuser absorber panels (basically two in one type of false ceiling) for ceiling and use all of your existing primacoustic absorber panels for sidewall reflection points. Cover the front and rear wall with woodwool instead. Buying a large removable diffuser panels to cover your windows (which I believe should be closed if feasible - I could not as they were the only source of ventilation) is one more option. Since these are my opinions without any objective data please take them with a pinch of salt.

Alternatively try borrowing newer iPhone models and run artnovion app or get acquainted with the GEq software and post the objective measurements other better informed FMs will be able to guide you with room treatment. Artnovion has a dealer in Bangalore, they'd send people to do the room acoustics if the app measurements are emailed to them. Bit on the costlier side unfortunately.

Good luck, keep us posted.
(Also what was your impression after trying to change the speaker position etc? Forgot, Do you have a thick mat at the listening area?)