How to get depth in a stereo setup?

[arj]

I pulled the speakers closer. Even covered the tv with a quilt. I did feel the clarity improved when I covered the tv with a rug. As an experiment turned both speakers 180 degrees and interchanged the left and right channel. And I finally get something unbelievable. The depth is there and the sound stage is ethereal. Played the track good, bad ugly and the track "If I cound sing your blues" link posted by @arj

Now I have to grapple with certain circumstances.

1. To listen to music I have to sit on the opposite side with the tv behind me. This means I have to get some light weight and yet comfortable chair and drag it just in front of the tv every time I want to listen to music and remove the chair for tv watching. Ugh!!!
2. It looks wierd having one pair of speaker on one side of the room and another pair of speakers on another side.

The only practical solution that seems feasible is to usurp the guest room and make it a music room. But that is on a floor below. So If I change my mind to watch a movie, I have to go upstairs and vice versa.

The other is to find out what is causing some kind of anomaly where the entire sound stage is on the plane where the TV is sitting. I suspect this is something that @jls001 says and which is logical. The ES panels radiate sound front and back and the room or something is posing a challenge for this kind of speaker.

Have you trying playing around with the Toe in in the original position ie TV behind speakers ?

Try keeping it such that distance from speaker from wall is 1/3 of wall distance and fire it straight ie no toe in..keep changing the angle by 15 % till you get a 3D image..now its a question of 5 degrees in either direction till you get the best image.

 

[mbhangui]

Have you trying playing around with the Toe in in the original position ie TV behind speakers ?

Try keeping it such that distance from speaker from wall is 1/3 of wall distance and fire it straight ie no toe in..keep changing the angle by 15 % till you get a 3D image..now its a question of 5 degrees in either direction till you get the best image.

at the moment that's what I'm trying. I will exhaust all possibilities of having the tv in front of me. If everything fails, only then I will change the speaker position by 180 degrees. I'm trying the chesky disk on apple music for the listening tests.

@arj how much should I toe in? are there some do's and don'ts. Are you saying that by toe-in the reflections can be directed away from the tv surface?

 

[Kannan]

@arj how much should I toe in? are there some do's and don'ts. Are you saying that by toe-in the reflections can be directed away from the tv surface?

one simple test to see how much the TV glass is impacting by its reflections is to cover it with a thick chaddar (blanket) and check, or if you can get a helping hand, remove the TV from the spot and check. Use the same tracks, keep the listening to short passages which has enough details for you to assess.
If you have a long enough blanket, cover the TV (front and back fully). If you have retained the original TV box, you can use that also to fully cover the TV.
The second experiment will help you assess on the impact of back wall reflection aswell.

 

[mbhangui]

I got it. The speakers are now 8 ft apart. Each speaker is 2ft 7inches away from the side walls. I'm setting 8 ft away from both speakers with my head inches away from the rear full height set of 4 glass door/windows. The toe-in is around 15 degrees (i think). The entire set of windows are actually covered with acoustic foam (diy job done 9 years back) with curtains in front to hide the badly done DIY job .

I'm getting the same performance as yesterday with the speakers turned in the opposite direction. Not having to change the speaker direction is a big relief.

Thank all of you for the help and guidance @jmascreen @arj, @Yelamanchili manohar, @Kannan, @raghupb

 

[mbhangui]

one simple test to see how much the TV glass is impacting by its reflections is to cover it with a thick chaddar (blanket) and check, or if you can get a helping hand, remove the TV from the spot and check. Use the same tracks, keep the listening to short passages which has enough details for you to assess.
If you have a long enough blanket, cover the TV (front and back fully). If you have retained the original TV box, you can use that also to fully cover the TV.
The second experiment will help you assess on the impact of back wall reflection aswell.

The tv is too heavy to be moved by myself and my wife. I do have a large quilt. Now that I have got optimum performance (as per my hearing), I will try micro experiiments, one of them being covering the tv with quilt.

But I think the tv has been the biggest reason for spoiling the sound. Yesterday when I turned the speakers around, they were almost immune to positioning. But today, it required some effort to get the best sound.

 

[Sean de Silva]

I got it. The speakers are now 8 ft apart. Each speaker is 2ft 7inches away from the side walls. I'm setting 8 ft away from both speakers with my head inches away from the rear full height window. The toe-in is around 15 degrees (i think). The entire set of windows are actually covered with acoustic foam (diy job done 9 years back) with curtains in front to hide the badly done DIY job .

I'm getting the same performance as yesterday with the speakers turned in the opposite direction. Not having to change the speaker direction is a big relief.

Thank all of you for the help and guidance @jmascreen @arj, @Yelamanchili manohar, @Kannan, @raghupb
View attachment 67084

@mbhangui your hifi setup is very enticing. would love to behold if i'm in pune

 

[mbhangui]

@mbhangui your hifi setup is very enticing. would love to behold if i'm in pune

Sure. Would love that and hear music with drinks

 

[Kannan]

@mbhangui your hifi setup is very enticing. would love to behold if i'm in pune

Yeah...quintessential stuff especially the two speakers which are poles apart in design concepts...one full of drivers and the other with full drivers

 

[jmascreen]

I got it. The speakers are now 8 ft apart. Each speaker is 2ft 7inches away from the side walls. I'm setting 8 ft away from both speakers with my head inches away from the rear full height set of 4 glass door/windows. The toe-in is around 15 degrees (i think). The entire set of windows are actually covered with acoustic foam (diy job done 9 years back) with curtains in front to hide the badly done DIY job .

I'm getting the same performance as yesterday with the speakers turned in the opposite direction. Not having to change the speaker direction is a big relief.

Thank all of you for the help and guidance @jmascreen @arj, @Yelamanchili manohar, @Kannan, @raghupb
View attachment 67084

My bad moved out of Pune else would loved to hear these beauties

 

[arj]

I got it. The speakers are now 8 ft apart. Each speaker is 2ft 7inches away from the side walls. I'm setting 8 ft away from both speakers with my head inches away from the rear full height set of 4 glass door/windows. The toe-in is around 15 degrees (i think). The entire set of windows are actually covered with acoustic foam (diy job done 9 years back) with curtains in front to hide the badly done DIY job .

I'm getting the same performance as yesterday with the speakers turned in the opposite direction. Not having to change the speaker direction is a big relief.

Thank all of you for the help and guidance @jmascreen @arj, @Yelamanchili manohar, @Kannan, @raghupb
View attachment 67084

This looks good ! Maybe try a position where its 5-6 feet apart from each other and with lower toe in. I personally prefer either firing straight OR 5-10 degree toe in.

 

[Vineethkumar01]

Sharing just in case it helps to understand what goes on behind adding the depth, width, and height while mixing.

 

[drlowmu]

I have found that how well the audio amplifier resolves music information, is a key factor in it duplicating space in the X,Y, and Z axis.

If the information gets garbled or lost inside the amplifier, how can it ever be ungarbled at the loudspeaker ??

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Also, what are the transfer efficiency losses in the wiring ...... amp-to-speaker, and in the speaker crossover itself?? This often can easily lose the originally recorded music information !!

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I honestly find that, of all the components in audio, I feel the audio amplifiers are the most seriously lacking.

( This is due to their general design, and their commercial execution. How well can they play wide band music information back to us???? Not well enough, is my own honest opinion. )

As just one simple example, I believe an amplifier employing forms of negative feedback, will destroy the timing cues needed for a convincing presentation.

What percentage of audio amps use forms of negative feedback ?? Ninety percent ?

How many have a power supply that is slower than the music's requirements? Maybe 99 percent.

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The QUESTION :

Can your audio amplifier define musical events coming to you from the loudspeaker in coherent and resolved layers - and in the correct time?

Most of the amplifiers people own are simply not refined enough............. and are thus incapable to resolve this.

Please don't get mad at me. I am just pointing out, .....

.......................................................................................................... that the Emperor has no clothes on !!!

Jeff

 

[Analogous]

As I understand sound stage includes aspects of width, height and depth. It has a relationship/association with imaging in 2 channel / stereo set ups. Width is relatively easier to achieve. I have read about depth, But I have not really heard clear depth/ layered sound (in recordings where this is supposed to be audible. Seeking insights and guidance from FM who have achieved this…
Anyone in Bangalore who reached this stage (and happy to invite) for a listen?

 

[mbhangui]

As I understand sound stage includes aspects of width, height and depth. It has a relationship/association with imaging in 2 channel / stereo set ups. Width is relatively easier to achieve. I have read about depth, But I have not really heard clear depth/ layered sound (in recordings where this is supposed to be audible. Seeking insights and guidance from FM who have achieved this…
Anyone in Bangalore who reached this stage (and happy to invite) for a listen?

I have a feeling that this is so dependent on the width of the room and the distance of the speaker from the wall and the brain getting fooled not fooled by illusion. I get more width when i close my eyes. I'm not convinced by the height. Depth somehow never goes beyond the wall which you are facing (even with eyes closed). Will follow your post as you are a doctor and hence mostly a logical person. So if you achieve this, I know I will have to make changes to my system to achieve depth.

 

[bhooshaniyer]

I recently heard a speaker which nearly projected sound source to the left and right of seating position. I would like to know if this is depth too.

 

[mbhangui]

I recently heard a speaker which nearly projected sound source to the left and right of seating position. I would like to know if this is depth too.

my understanding of depth is beyond the dimensions of the room.

 

[reignofchaos]

Didn't have to do anything. Just appeared automagically with the right speaker and room.

 

[sound1]

As I understand sound stage includes aspects of width, height and depth. It has a relationship/association with imaging in 2 channel / stereo set ups. Width is relatively easier to achieve. I have read about depth, But I have not really heard clear depth/ layered sound (in recordings where this is supposed to be audible. Seeking insights and guidance from FM who have achieved this…
Anyone in Bangalore who reached this stage (and happy to invite) for a listen?

I adjust my speakers until a get a holographic sound whenever i move them around. Depth usually improves when i move them away from the walls towards me, especially back walls. Mine is a small room and it works for me but for large halls it may not make any difference. Or may be it does, i haven't had a chance to try.

edit: speakers at 1/3rd and me at 2/3rd from back walls sounds the best, with speaker at 2ft from side walls. try it, you might like it.

 

[bhooshaniyer]

my understanding of depth is beyond the dimensions of the room.

And if the room is too big?? I am not convinced about this definition of depth.

 

[mbhangui]

And if the room is too big?? I am not convinced about this definition of depth.

My understanding is one should get good depth with a very large room. The distances are large enough for reflections to cause havoc with our perception of the sound.

The question is if it is possible to get good depth with rooms of size of around 400 to 600 sq ft. Left and right perception easily happens even with crappy boomboxes. But with such small rooms is it possible for the sound to appear beyond the walls? I have never experienced that and to me that limits the quality of stereo. Would be very interested to know if this is possible either by means of good setup, sound treatment of combination of both.