How to get depth in a stereo setup?

[drlowmu]

Layering is a function of how good the amplifier design and execution is, to the largest degree. I would estimate 99.999 percent of audio amplifier designs available today - are highly incapable in this area.

The best stereo imaging I have ever experienced, has been recently - from 12-12-2022 to 2-07-23, while using a single MONAURAL speaker, fed a left-channel-only signal !!! ( A 1995 ALTEC 515G-8HP and an 802-D with an augmented ALTEC 825 enclosure ).

Such subjective listening performance is a function one's entire thoughtfully / carefully executed audio set-up.

FIRST, one must use that aforementioned close-to-ideal audio amplifier, played upon highly efficient professional or industrial quality speakers, ( as opposed to designed and made-for consumer-use loud speakers. )

I can refer you everyone to only four loudspeakers : pre WW2 Klangfilm, ALE of Japan, ALTEC, and the most logical, GPA, Great Plains Audio - of the USA ).*

Jeffrey Medwin

* My personal-use audio speakers arrive at GPA today, for a re-design / rebuild to provide duplex / single point source capability, if I so choose.

 

[drlowmu]

My understanding is one should get good depth with a very large room. The distances are large enough for reflections to cause havoc with our perception of the sound.

The question is if it is possible to get good depth with rooms of size of around 400 to 600 sq ft. Left and right perception easily happens even with crappy boomboxes. But with such small rooms is it possible for the sound to appear beyond the walls? I have never experienced that and to me that limits the quality of stereo. Would be very interested to know if this is possible either by means of good setup, sound treatment of combination of both.

Hello mbhangui !!


Here below is the THE one precise answer to your sincere question, from your above post.

Read it over, both of these unsolicited posts below, at LEAST two times, so that you will finally understand :

It took Lowthers, with no crossovers, Beauhorn - loaded in Hong Kong, and a very specific AMP design, previously highlighted to all F.M.s, right here on HFV :


https://www.hifivision.com/threads/...e-amplifier-of-2022.88744/page-2#post-1022733

The " PFA TRIPLE 6005 "..... DIY tube amplifier of 2022.

05-28-2022................... A Conceptual PRIMER , On SE Tube Amplifier Power Supply Design The power supplies shown in this and last year's 6005 amp build, each have what is called " L.S.E.S." passive power supplies. This is an acronym standing for " Low Stored Energy Supplies ". In both...

www.hifivision.com

Jeff Medwin

 

[Kannan]

Layering is a function of how good the amplifier design and execution is, to the largest degree. I would estimate 99.999 percent of audio amplifier designs available today - are highly incapable in this area.

Absurd to the core. At about any amp with a low noise floor can produce a proper stage, which includes depth and other parameters of staging.

Most critical for imaging, stage, depth, width etc in a stereo setup is for both speakers to be in phase in design.
Next the room and speaker positioning plays a critical role.
The more you draw out the speakers out from the boundaries, the better the perception of depth and width and height. Avoid the distance to side and rear walls to being equal if the room allows for such placement.
With smaller rooms best solution is near field listening. Also avoid listening position in the middle of the room or too close to the back wall.

 

[Analogous]

I have a feeling that this is so dependent on the width of the room and the distance of the speaker from the wall and the brain getting fooled not fooled by illusion. I get more width when i close my eyes. I'm not convinced by the height. Depth somehow never goes beyond the wall which you are facing (even with eyes closed). Will follow your post as you are a doctor and hence mostly a logical person. So if you achieve this, I know I will have to make changes to my system to achieve depth.

I too have a feeling that’s Room acoustics and speaker placement is sure to play a vital part in creating the sound stage illusion, as much as the set up and the recording as you, @sound1 and @Kannan have shared.

@drlowmu, electronics and speaker design are definitely the first place to start and I think everyone will agree that great design, synergy and high quality of components are vital. But I have heard several set ups that were of excellent quality in poorly set up rooms. They sounded disappointing and boring. I am sure with your experience you will have your own insights on room acoustics (beyond electronics and speaker design)

I am getting a wide sound stage (beyond the speakers baffle outer edges, depending on the recording of course.
I also get nicely focussed imaging which seems to be related to toe in. More toe in results in sharper images but reduction in the width.
But, depth and layering which I keep on reading about seems elusive. But as @bhooshaniyer has flagged maybe we should start with an agreed definition of “soundstage depth “?

 

[drlowmu]

But, depth and layering which I keep on reading about seems elusive. But as @bhooshaniyer has flagged maybe we should start with an agreed definition of “soundstage depth “?

Layering and a precise sense of depth rely upon how well an amplifier can differentiate such minutely recorded information, and keep it intact through the circuitry, wiring, and - through the entire audio playback chain. My amp designs uniquely excel at this, as one can easily deduce from both user - reviews in this thread's Post #10, above.

Whats different in mine, from the other tube amps people might use ?? Low DCR Power Transformers, dual directly heated tube rectifiers, double six Ohm low mass chokes, m22759/11 and other silver content wiring, all film cap power supplies, quadruple B+ filtering after the main supply filtering, to feed all sensitive circuit spots ( Shunt 1, Shunt 2, Final Filter 1, Final Filter 2 ). Zero NFB, no coupling capacitors, good three dimensional layout. Triode valve amplification. All of this, in one conservatively operated design.

So satisfying to design, build, and best of all, hear.

 

[Analogous]

Layering and depth rely upon how well an amplifier can differentiate such minutely recorded information, and keep it intact through the circuitry, wiring, and - through the entire audio playback chain. My amp designs uniquely excel at this, as one gathers from the two reviews in this thread's Post #10, above.

Whats different in mine, from the other tube amps people might use ?? Low DCR Power Transformers, dual directly heated tube rectifiers, double six Ohm low mass chokes, m22759/11 and other silver content wiring, all film cap power supplies, quadruple B+ filtering after the main supply filtering, to feed sensitive circuit spots ( Shunt 1, Shunt 2, Final Filter 1, Final Filter 2 ). Zero NFB, no coupling capacitors, good three dimensional layout. Triode valve amplification. All of this, in one conservatively operated design.

I hear what you are saying: a well designed amplifier such as the one you have designed would reproduce a 3D holographic sound stage when paired with suitable speakers. But the room itself? Any thoughts?

 

[arj]

Please check this thread out where it was discussed
https://www.hifivision.com/threads/how-to-get-depth-in-a-stereo-setup.88030/#post-989510

quality of components, PLacement in the room ,and the recording itself contributes to the soundstage 3D effect. The shape of our ear and the room acoustics give our brain the ability to create this illusion

From my understanding the position is evaluated by the ear across all 3 planes for a point source.

1. horizontal location by the difference in time between the same signal perception in the left and right ear
2. vertical location by means of the angle of entry of the sound to the ear..the shape of the ear contributes to measuring this.
3. depth by the variation between reflected and direct sound of the same signal

 

[drlowmu]

I hear what you are saying: a well designed amplifier such as the one you have designed would reproduce a 3D holographic sound stage when paired with suitable speakers. But the room itself? Any thoughts?

If it can't first get through the high-end audio amplifier and the wiring, fully intact, I say the room really does not matter, does it ?

In the end, we all listen to a music-modulated power supply......how good is it ??

I recently heard a speaker which nearly projected sound source to the left and right of seating position. I would like to know if this is depth too.

No, not at all.

 

[arj]

I recently heard a speaker which nearly projected sound source to the left and right of seating position. I would like to know if this is depth too.

this is about soundstage width. You can test for Depth with the below suggestion.

How to get depth in a stereo setup?

One of the more important properties of sound is that its speed is nearly independent of frequency. If this were not the case, and high-frequency sounds traveled faster, for example, then the farther you were from a band in a football stadium, the more the sound from the low-pitch instruments...

www.hifivision.com

below is a good track for this.

 

[drkrack]

I have read about depth, But I have not really heard clear depth/ layered sound (in recordings where this is supposed to be audible. Seeking insights and guidance from FM who have achieved this…
Anyone in Bangalore who reached this stage (and happy to invite) for a listen?

As mentioned previously The Positioning of Speakers in the room is of utmost importance in this regard, though the room wise specifics vary ; I have found at least 2.5ft distance from Speakers to its back wall & at least 3 ft distance from seating to its back wall seems crucial ( whenever in doubt pull the seating position more into the room and experiment). Depth is one of the parameters which is not well measured objectively but well perceived subjectively.

Other than that, I have found few Subtle parameters also effect how much depth you'll achieve.
1. Speaker cabinet depth affected the depth of the presentation , for ex B&W 802D3 had a greater depth vs 804 d3 floorstanders ; Longer speakers do better
2. Combination of solid core and multistranded speaker wire had a better depth presentation than either of them.
3. Preamp /DAC which is quite resolving matters equally, so is overpowering power amp working at its best volume band.
4. Not Having Reflective surfaces anywhere near the speakers including the ceilings ( instead Having Absorption all round the speakers) helps a lot. TVs at the center affect the depth in a negative way depending on how near is the back wall of speakers.
5 Class A>Class AB >Class D in my experience, hence ditched class D totally after a small affair.
Of course the disclaimer YMMV.

 

[Analogous]

Please check this thread out where it was discussed
https://www.hifivision.com/threads/how-to-get-depth-in-a-stereo-setup.88030/#post-989510

quality of components, PLacement in the room ,and the recording itself contributes to the soundstage 3D effect. The shape of our ear and the room acoustics give our brain the ability to create this illusion

Thanks. I did a search using “sound stage depth” as key words but nothing turned up.
Maybe we can close this thread rather than rehash all that has been discussed already.

 

[sachinchavan 15865]

Depth usually improves when i move them away from the walls towards me,

Yes. I experience that too. But I also experience a simultaneous loss of musicality/emotion as I move the speakers away from the wall probably due to the bass thinning out (mine are bookshelves with read port, if that matters). Given my sonic preference, I sacrifice depth for the emotion. As a result, my speakers create an illusion of depth not more than one metre behind them.

Depth somehow never goes beyond the wall which you are facing (even with eyes closed).

Being an illusion, depth is not limited to the physical wall behind the speakers. I’ve experienced (illusion of) much deeper sound than the small distance between the speakers and the wall when I used to have a tube preamp in my chain. It makes me wonder if the holographic effect of tubes contributes to a sense of depth. But that distorted the tonality at least in my hybrid amplification (SS power and average sensitivity speakers) which I couldn’t compromise upon.

More toe in results in sharper images but reduction in the width.

Agree. I also experience loss of detail upon toe-in with my speakers. I prefer them firing straight ahead. It could be a function of the speakers and/or the room placement.

In short, depth of sound stage (as any other aspect of sound) comes at the cost of something else. It’s always a trade-off and the optimal point would be subjective to the listener’s preferences. Unless of course one moves on to better (and usually costlier) system.

 

[arj]

But, depth and layering which I keep on reading about seems elusive. But as @bhooshaniyer has flagged maybe we should start with an agreed definition of “soundstage depth “?

It should be simple

If you remember your coordinate geometry
Height id Y axis
Width is along X Axis
Depth is along Z axis.

Hence its truly 3D only with Depth. is instruments can be percieved along the Z axus as well.

 

[prem]

There are two kinds of depth. One is depth of stage which is not difficult to get. Any decent stereo set up will get you that subject to speaker placement and quality of source material.

The other is tonal depth which happens as you go up the ladder. As resolution improves, tonal depth increases. This requires highly resolving equipment. Needless to say, source material and speaker placement has to be good.

 

[Analogous]

Here is a interesting post from the other thread for those like me who have not read it before:
It’s from @jls001
Post in thread 'How to get depth in a stereo setup?'
https://www.hifivision.com/threads/how-to-get-depth-in-a-stereo-setup.88030/post-989601

Here is an article that looks at the science behind the complexity of the sound stage phenomena we strive for…

Room Reflections & Human Adaptation for Small Room Acoustics

Dealing with acoustics in small rooms is no trivial matter. This article focuses on how to treat early reflections based on listening habits, your loudspeaker choice. Absorb, diffuse, reflect; decide.

www.audioholics.com

 

[arj]

There are two kinds of depth. One is depth of stage which is not difficult to get. Any decent stereo set up will get you that subject to speaker placement and quality of source material.

The other is tonal depth which happens as you go up the ladder. As resolution improves, tonal depth increases. This requires highly resolving equipment. Needless to say, source material and speaker placement has to be good.

prem did you mean Richness of tone ie its able to get all the Harmonic depth here ? this is of course one of the Nirvana stage objectives

Stage depth where different instruments are at different "Z Axis " points is also not easy to get but with decent resolution and good placement anyone should be able to get that,

 

[prem]

I don’t think richness of tone alone gets you tonal depth. For example human voice has a depth. This tonal depth is what I am referring to. To me it’s a little different from body. Although body does give some depth, tonal depth gives me more layers. For example a percussion instrument typically has both a tight sound and a hollow sound. You should be able to hear both. While the tight sound is much easier to achieve, the hollow sound is very difficult to achieve. Maybe my terminology of tonal depth is not correct but above example is what I mean by tonal depth.

 

[arj]

So would it be Harmonic richness ie getting all the frequencies and their overtones/Subharmonics reproduced so the sounds sounds more real and natural to the extent possible from a recording ?

 

[prem]

I don’t know what it is that allows one to hear both the tight and the hollow sound of a percussion instrument. IME, even the slightest riding of bass or beaming of a frequency messes it up.

I don’t understand much of these technical terms but I do everything by ear.

To check if bass is riding on the mids or highs, I use a simple Lata track. Of late I have been using the song Woh Hain Zara Khafa Khafa. Lata has pretty much perfect diction. The Hain should sound like Hain and not Hai. If bass rides that distinction becomes less clear. Since Hain falls between Woh and Zara it’s pretty easy to figure out.

 

[prem]

At home I have been unable to get the hollow sound of a percussion instrument. Maybe my system lacks the resolution or I am doing something wrong. I haven’t been able to figure it.

What I try and ensure is at least the basics are right. The diction of the singer at least should sound correct. That’s something I have been able to manage with my system at home.