IP Piracy

[nirrej]

Inspite of so much piracy these companies do make good amount of profits and dont go in losses. Now I dont care about how much the other person is earning but it proves the fact that they charge way above the cost so that they are able to still make profits.

Do remember that companies like Magnasound and many more have shut shop in India after the digital /downloading era started. Just because a product is costly doesn't mean, that it will be giving the owners windfall profits. There will other costs involved like branding, royalty, R&D, etc.

Who are we to decide how much a company/ person earns?
Aren't we a free market.
A Lee jeans costs Rs.1800 wheras a local one sells for as low as Rs.250.
Does that mean we can steal a LEE and say that the company is earning enough because of high prices, and justify the theft.

And we should all remember that money made by piracy is unaccounted money. We get angry when we read about those billions stashed away is swiss lockers. where did that money come from. It's all unaccounted money and not money earned by legal means. Before the CD/ DVD reaches the hands of a poor platform vendor it must have been supplied by a bigger shark who will defnitley come under the income tax bracket.

 

[just4kix]

IMO this is also 1 good point.

The movies I had to see (Rajneeti, Raavan etc) I saw that in theatre itself. The movies I didnt have to see (Housefull, Badmaash company etc) I didnt see in theatre and haven't downloaded them and have no plans to watch in near future.


If there is a movie that I have to definitely watch I would go in a theatre. The movies I would download would be the ones which I wouldnt have watched either in theatre or on VCD. So morally it may be wrong but technically there is no loss of revenue for the original owner.

One could rent.

 

[goyal.sanchit]

Do remember that companies like Magnasound and many more have shut shop in India after the digital /downloading era started.

I havent heard about Magnasound but I did read in newspapers few days back that POP MUSIC in India has died because of Piracy. People dont buy the cd's thus companies arent promoting pop singers. Now thats 1 case where piracy has affected badly and I do feel sorry about the issue.

Just because a product is costly doesn't mean, that it will be giving the owners windfall profits. There will other costs involved like branding, royalty, R&D, etc.

I never meant that.

Does that mean we can steal a LEE and say that the company is earning enough because of high prices, and justify the theft.

I guess the 1st post in the thread itself differentiated between STEALING and PIRACY.

We get angry when we read about those billions stashed away is swiss lockers.

And nothing done by govt over the issue or the Telgi scam, spectrum scam etc. make me realize the more tax I pay the more it is going in swiss banks. (Anyways thats going offtopic).

One could rent.

Whenever theres a international hockey match in my city entry to the stadium is FREE. Its because the organisers know noone will come to watch even if the ticket cost a meagre 50 RS. Sad state of hockey though. Same is the case with some movies.

Though I agree that there are many people who would have watched the movie in theatre or rented the DVD incase there was no piracy. In that case piracy affects business.

 

[ajinkya]

the definition of rape is exact - and the jury/judge in different parts of the world may award the sentence of death -

Death penalty in rape case upheld - NOLA.com

and, (legally)

there is an exact definition (and scope) for every violation of societal law - that definition is precise - and does not allow latitude for overlap with another offence

Suri,
Thanks for the link. It has added to my knowledge about US laws.

But I was referring to the death penalty for rape in India. From my limited knowledge, no case of death for rape has emerged in India (after Independence). USA, as expected, is a no-nonsense society for the most part and its laws reflect that. The thing I found idiotic after reading the news item was that Mas. and other states that also have the death penalty give the offender one more chance to redeem himself. Its as if - the second child being raped is really heinous...but we'll slap you on the wrist for the first child... this logic I really do not fathom.

 

[goyal.sanchit]

I would like to divert (?) this thread a little to talk about music piracy.

Generally only 1-2 tracks in an Album are good. Is it "morally" right to ask the consumer to purchase the full audio cd for 1-2 tracks on part of the company?

Ok earlier there didnt exist any cost effective mechanism to sell 1-2 tracks. But if we talk about today's scenario should the companies give the choice to users to buy individual songs on their website?

 

[unleash_me]

Generally only 1-2 tracks in an Album are good. Is it "morally" right to ask the consumer to purchase the full audio cd for 1-2 tracks on part of the company?

I believe the term 'moral' is relative; just as music is subjective. Among the listed tracks, these 1-2 fav tracks could well be different for different people.

Ok earlier there didnt exist any cost effective mechanism to sell 1-2 tracks. But if we talk about today's scenario should the companies give the choice to users to buy individual songs on their website?

Few of them do, if not all. E.g. Linn, Naim etc. So yes, this option is highly welcomed.

 

[psychotropic]

the point is that when you see people go around making patently wrongheaded statements, you do feel the urge to correct them. And then they snipe at you for that, and then you respond. So yes, that would be the point If someone went around saying that tube amplifiers are too old to be useful, or something daft like that wouldn't you be very eager to disabuse them of that absurd notion?

But is there really a point though? What if it is and what if it is not? The long and short of it - that which we all agree upon is that this is something to be frowned upon and even a legally defined infringement.

I thought that was enough. Pardon if I missed anything.

 

[asliarun]

Do remember that companies like Magnasound and many more have shut shop in India after the digital /downloading era started. Just because a product is costly doesn't mean, that it will be giving the owners windfall profits. There will other costs involved like branding, royalty, R&D, etc.

Who are we to decide how much a company/ person earns?
Aren't we a free market.
A Lee jeans costs Rs.1800 wheras a local one sells for as low as Rs.250.
Does that mean we can steal a LEE and say that the company is earning enough because of high prices, and justify the theft.

And we should all remember that money made by piracy is unaccounted money. We get angry when we read about those billions stashed away is swiss lockers. where did that money come from. It's all unaccounted money and not money earned by legal means. Before the CD/ DVD reaches the hands of a poor platform vendor it must have been supplied by a bigger shark who will defnitley come under the income tax bracket.

1. What R&D cost does a record label incur? Its not like they are inventing a new recording technology every time they are releasing a new Akon album. In fact, due to better software, production cost has actually become ridiculously low for record companies, to the extent that you and I can feasibly record a album with near studio level quality.

2. Free market - aaah. Sure, taken to a libertarian extreme, free market sounds really cool. You know, free market probably existed in the Wild West, and you could probably lead a "free" and respectable life in those days if you were fast with a gun.

Just ask yourself one question - if free market is so robust and self-correcting, why do almost ALL countries have specific laws against monopolies and against companies indulging in monopolistic behaviour?? After all, the "free market" should self-correct itself against such behaviour, right?

3. Your analogy of Lee jeans is wrong. I ask you this: If you see a Lee jeans (costing 1600/-), and you take a photograph of the jeans on display, go to your local tailor ask your tailor to make an exact replica (which ends up costing you 300/-). NOW, can you tell me, morally or otherwise, that you should be charged with a crime and you should be called, not a plagiarist, but worse, a thief, no.. worse a robber,no.. worse a "goonda", no... worse a "pirate"???

Now, let us say that that people in your locality routinely do this (and Lee probably claims that it is not selling 1600/- jeans solely because of these talented tailors and immoral "pirates"). Do you think that we are committing a terrible crime because we are causing a huge increase in unaccounted money or "black money" - based on the fact that because of us, tailors are now earning more money, and as an unrelated consequence, the tailors are not reporting this income properly to the Income Tax authorities?

Come on!

 

[asliarun]

The reasons are totally different. MS controls the world of computing. Over 85% of the world's personal computer run on MS Windows. And while piracy is rampant in this arena as well, corporates and many individuals adhere to licensed versions.

The same is true for record companies. A few of them combined have a monopoly over the industry. Contrast them with "indie" labels, and you will know what I am talking about. Why is emusic banned in India, for example?

One more thing: Despite the effects of piracy, record companies have made record profits (pun unintended) in recent years and their sales have been consistently increasing. So where is the cause and effect?

Computers (desktops and laptops) sold by brand companies are delivered with pre-installed legal and paid copy of Windows.

This is a relatively recent phenomenon (more so because laptops sales have overtaken desktop sales, and laptops are mostly branded). This also does not cover unbranded or assembled computers.

 

[doors666]

I am surprised no one has talked about book piracy. There are clones of most of the books available for 50-100 bucks for an original that could cost anywhere from 200/- onwards, specially for novels.

What about the students who cant afford engineering and or medical books and get them photocopied from their friends. When I was an engg student, we used to get a book photocopied and a bunch of us used to share the cost of that also, make stapled chapters and share them during exams etc. I probably would have made a much worse engineers without those books. How many people can seriously claim that they have higher education (specially gotten in 80s and 90s, who could afford expensive books) and never read a photocopied chapter of any book.

Book piracy is more rampant than movies, and it affects the author more than it affects the h(b)ollywood studios. Here's a guy who slogged for his whole life, became a great doctor, wrote a book, and no one pays for it.

 

[vinay]

For the sake of examples i think it should be alright if we give examples of bootlegs, thefts, murderers as long as there is a link to what we are writing and i hope most of them will not have an issue to this keeping in mind that we are discussing several times out of context which is surely alright, at least over here we are talking about audio and video.

V.

where do bootlegs fit into this whole scenario.

 

[vinay]

Indeed no one can justify piracy, but these piracy and related things are in all walks of life, i think we need to handle the matter from root level.

It is very true that i gifted my legal copies of DVD but never i have made a attempt to be liberal in giving away my downloaded movies as i am trying to be as moral as possible.

Indeed torrents etc are the better ways to go forward with having the movies but whatever regularization is required it should be done but before we are tackled, the movie makers should be tackled when they copy the movie story lines from Hollywood.

V.

No one can justify piracy.

Vinay, as most of us know, has been very kind to gift many of us from HFV 8 DVDs each. All of them were originals bought legally. Basically he wanted to share his collection with others regular on HFV. This has ben much appreciated. He could also have resorted to torrents to share his DVDs with us instead of taking the pains of arranging, packing, couriering etc. Would that be any different?

I think that torrents are just a new way of sharing with each other. It is no longer possible to share as we did years ago with people across the world, busy and constantly connected to internet.
Raghav

 

[vinay]

Well there are many threads which are much more then 4 pages, there may be many members who will think that it is fine but some may say it is not okay. While it is great if a particular thread has minimum difference of opinions.

I do not think it is possible to restrict the discussion just to video piracy because of examples, etc. As such there will be rare threads where the discussion has remained in four walls of the subjected thread.

It is well said that all is well when we have fun laced with healthy discussion.

V.

I followed this thread through all the 4 pages. What I am not able to understand is how are we managing to keep it going! Seriously because I dont see any difference of opinion on the basics. Not even one here has said that piracy should be condoned.

By the way I think we should restrict this discussion to video piracy. Piracy, unqualified, is a much larger stigma. Not sure we want to go there.

But all is well when we have fun, I guess

 

[vinay]

I have expressed mine as well on this!

We are still expressing our point of views.

V.

the original debate was whether piracy is the same as theft. I've explained how it is not. I am waiting for responses

 

[suri]

Well there are many threads which are much more then 4 pages, there may be many members who will think that it is fine but some may say it is not okay. While it is great if a particular thread has minimum difference of opinions.

I do not think it is possible to restrict the discussion just to video piracy because of examples, etc. As such there will be rare threads where the discussion has remained in four walls of the subjected thread.

It is well said that all is well when we have fun laced with healthy discussion.

V.

hi vinay -

in those (earlier) days of innocence there were those threads which would move from one page to four pages in a matter of 4 hours -

and those were threads with maximum difference of opinions amongst maximum number of participants -

the threads where all the participants concurred - and there was bonhomie - closed early.

salt and pepper (and ginger) - are the ingredients to keep an inconsequential thread going on to 17 pages -

hope we all have fun!

regds
suri

 

[vinay]

Please be assured it is not interesting and it does not mean what you are thinking.

V.

This is interesting. It means that if they give Schumacher's ferrari to any random motorhead, he should be racing as good as Schumacher because the car/crew were the same?!

 

[vinay]

In many fields there is unaccounted money, that includes film industry.

I think on this forum it would be a rare case if someone is making money by doing piracy.

V.

we should all remember that money made by piracy is unaccounted money..

 

[just4kix]

the original debate was whether piracy is the same as theft. I've explained how it is not. I am waiting for responses

Any act or means that deprives the copyright owner(s) to earn legitimate money is stealing. If the piracy had not occurred two results would have been possible:

a) A sale may not have happened because no one was interested in buying the product.
b) A legitimate sale would have happened and different groups people would have earned proportionate income from the sale.

It is in case (b) the group of people have been deprived of their future income. This in my opinion is a clear case of theft.

The argument that the owners in this case are big movie moguls, large studies and corporations, have already minted money, etc. is an entirely a different topic of debate.

Please consider the hypothetical scenario - however unlikely; however remote. A small artist publishes a compilation of songs. They become very popular. Suddenly all over the internet torrents or rapidshare links appear that allow you to freely download these songs. This artist guy is now deprived of the income. Is he not being cheated out of his livelihood? Is this not theft? Else what do we call it then?

 

[Raghav]

Suppose I give my friend my original DVD of "Ghajini", which he missed in theater and now desperately wants to see.

My giving the DVD is an "act that deprives the copyright owner(s) to earn legitimate money" and

If I would refuse to give it to him

"b) A legitimate sale would have happened and different groups people would have earned proportionate income from the sale."

Whatever anyone thinks, I feel this is not even close to piracy, leave aside theft. Sharing my own DVD with friends, even if it causes loss of income to whosoever concerned and shuts down his company and ability to make future films, is not piracy. If this simple act of mine can shut his company, we can well believe the quality of the film produced!!!


Now If I can share my original DVD with one friend I suppose I can share with one hundred also.

Any act or means that deprives the copyright owner(s) to earn legitimate money is stealing. If the piracy had not occurred two results would have been possible:

a) A sale may not have happened because no one was interested in buying the product.
b) A legitimate sale would have happened and different groups people would have earned proportionate income from the sale.

It is in case (b) the group of people have been deprived of their future income. This in my opinion is a clear case of theft.

The argument that the owners in this case are big movie moguls, large studies and corporations, have already minted money, etc. is an entirely a different topic of debate.

Please consider the hypothetical scenario - however unlikely; however remote. A small artist publishes a compilation of songs. They become very popular. Suddenly all over the internet torrents or rapidshare links appear that allow you to freely download these songs. This artist guy is now deprived of the income. Is he not being cheated out of his livelihood? Is this not theft? Else what do we call it then?

 

[sanjub22]

Correct me if I am wrong, we are discussing so much regarding piracy but dont you think we also somehow indulge to this fact by discussing tons of pages on media players like WDTV or Xtreamer and all. No foul intention and my apology to the owners but why we at all need these equipments. Why we need a mkv or avi or mp4 ?? Just simply go to a shop and buy BD or DVD and play it on a dedicated player.... simple man......why to rip.... copy... convert......???? You may offcourse put some valid logic as far as legal and no-piracy aspect on those media players but those will not be as simple as a dedicated player.My bad indeed, but on my opinion these media players are one of the main culprit in spreading piracy to a great extent .

Just my opinion, no foul intention here.I would like to be corrected here.