Is A.R.Rehman that great?

[suri]

Suri,
Wealth is not an indicator of higher intelligence in general at all. At least not in India. Even in most of the world. Otherwise every university professor and research scientist would be a millionaire.

ajinkya,
well, that is how it ought to be!

E.g., Pandit Bhimsen Joshi has a voice which is magnificent in it's grandeur, depth and range of scale. Even though I am not classically trained and do not even understand the basics of Indian classical music, his voice moves me more than (say) Michael Jackson's. But I am sure MJ has sold more copies than Pt. Joshi ever will, worldwide.

let us remove ourselves from this analysis, you and I - and look upon (benignly) this mass of humanity buying more MJ albums than PBJ - what do we see?

perhaps, you and i see that animal instincts and english have a broader appeal for a wider swathe of peoples than refinement and culture! (and that is an indictment of our human race!)

ajinkya, i am a huge fan of nusrath fateh ali khan.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Wow... Such a lot of activity on this thread since I threw in my two pennies worth!

Just to nail my colours to the mast, and I should have been clearer before, when I say I am a classical music man, I mean that I am a carnatic classical man. Over my life, my taste has ranged from some of the 30s/40s ballads in my parents' collection of 78s, through western classical, some of the psychadelic and "progressive" music of the 60s and 70s (I had a Greatful Dead session at the weekend!), Indian music in general, finally settling in this carnatic sphere.

I'm no scholar, though, and unable to recognise raga, though I understand the skeleton of tala, having sat through (but not memorised) more than a few mridangam classes.

I'd say that melody is the bit that gets left in a person's head; it is the bit that you hum. When it comes to my favourite music, however, my lack of raga education means that, even when I can hear a snippet in my head, I often cannot hum it, as the raga brain-cell links are not there. This even applies to songs I might be able to hum along with. I have a theory that, if you take the tunes a person knows out of their head, a remarkable proportion of them will be composed by Mozart and Beethoven, whether the person has even heard of them or not! Yes, of course, British westerners were the subject of this theory; it may very well not apply.

My symphony-orchestra test was analogous to playing music through a very fine hifi system: it is unforgiving. That which sounded fine to on a cheap tape deck may be just horrible on a decent hifi. It shows up the warts as much as anything else. Of course, the musicians, and the strength of the arranger, was an unknown quantity.

In the end, it is subjective. As someone said, personal. The test of time (and many greats get forgotten too) is yet to happen, and we will never know.

By the way... just been upacking some forgotten CDs, and we listened to and enjoyed the music to 1947

Oh... somebody, somewhere in all those pages, mentioned repetitive drumming. I think that anyone who has ever listened to the vast variety of mridangam strokes in carnatic music will tend to find mere repetition (and worse; the drum machine loop) on the drums to be less than satisfying!

(and, should anyone notice a fair-haired Brit wearing traditional Indian dress, in a Chennai concert hall, there is a very good chance it is me. Say hello!)

 

[thevortex]

Would be sure to say hello, Thad!

Anybody else planning on attending the November concerts in Chennai?

 

[suri]

(and, should anyone notice a fair-haired Brit wearing traditional Indian dress, in a Chennai concert hall, there is a very good chance it is me. Say hello!)

and what would that be?

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

and what would that be?

Kurta and vesti.

Even in the music concerts fashion is leaving me behind on this one --- but heck, I'm comfortable, and that is what matters.

Anybody else planning on attending the November concerts in Chennai?

Oddly (if you mean The Hindu Novemberfest), I'm quite tempted to see Osibisa! Last seen and enjoyed at London's Round House, in about 1974

 

[Asit]

and what would that be?

Perhaps, a langota .

Just kidding.

Thad, you said:
"I'd say that melody is the bit that gets left in a person's head; it is the bit that you hum."

That's it. You have it, Thad. I do not care if you can or cannot recognize ragas. But you have said the basic thing about melody which forms the core of a raga. Every raga has a definite melodic scale. With long term listening, one then just recognizes these melodic patterns better. See, moktan, the answer is so short, it did not need an answer as long as an encyclopedia.

Actually, I give from time to time some popular lectures to mixed audiences, and one of those lectures (in Bengali) had the title (translated) "Why do we hum certain tunes?" I wanted to show that the tunes we hum even unknowingly at times have a very solid melodic structure and are invariably the basis of some ragas. I even took extreme examples such as "Chhaiyaa Chhaiyaa" from "Dil Se" (ARR composed) and did the notation with times spent at each note, and could easily show that the melodic structure of at least the beginning movement is very similar to the ragas "Megh" or "Sarang" ("Madhyamavati" in Carnatic).

However, this melody is built on a scale that is NOT the accepted scale of a keyboard (called the tempered scale). A tempered scale can only respect the Octave relationship and CANNOT respect the CONSONANCE relation and the major and minor TRIAD relations. This IS maintained in the so-called harmonic scales which by definition means that the all the above relationships are strictly maintained. This harmonic scale also allows for the microtones (or "shruti") which all ragas use in some way or the other. All this actually can be shown analytically, for example the note komal rishav is slightly higher (in frequency) in raga Shree than in raga Marwa.

The harmonic scale arises in nature, because this way some higher harmonics of a given note matches exactly with some other harmonics of another note. That's why all folk music around the world uses the harmonic scale and this is a result of nature, no human being's creation.

This is also why given a melodic structure, it is NOT easy to break open from that and suddenly get into another structure. This is what makes people hum a tune like a mad man countless number of times.

Unfortunately I have not heard a lot of Beethoven, but Mozart I have heard more. Let me now confess that among all the Western classical composers, melodically Mozart attracts me the most, by far. And Bach did not at all, sorry, but most probably from around this time the tempered scale started being used in Western classical music (I hope I am right here).

Thad, the reason I cannot like your test with the British Symphony orchestra is that unless people have appreciation of these microtones (mentioned above, and a result of using only harmonic scales), the beauty of the melodies really do not come out. Most Western musicians playing any form of Indian music fall short in this crucial aspect. If you can get hold of his recordings (Sarod), Ken Zuckerman of Basel, Switzerland is one among very few who plays Indian music (Ragas) perfectly.

Thad, thanks for the explanation. I really cannot complain if you like ARR or not, because as has been said it is very personal. I also do not like some of his compositions that much, but love many others.

Regards.

PS: Vortex, I hope you find some answers above. Sorry, I probably bored many of you to death.

 

[thevortex]

I found some, Asit. But I am looking for more!

 

[moktan]

some more about music...and i couldn't have put it better..

"Music is organized sound. Some of the ingredients used in organizing the sound of music include such things as the musical staff of five parallel lines and their respective ID cards or clef signs. Then there are sharps and flats that alter the character and pitch of the notes without changing their names. The different appearances of the notes indicate varying time or duration of the sounds that they represent. Placed higher or lower on the lines of the staff, they signify higher or lower pitches of sound. This is written music. And the sound of music is the result of someones playing a composers arrangement of these ingredients in suitable patterns. Music is therefore an art form that exists in the realms of sound and time.
When sound comes to our ears, something is vibratinga violin string, a drumhead, the reed of a pipe. What happens is that air is set in motion. Like the disturbed surface of a placid pool when a pebble is dropped in, the ripples and waves of air circle out from a source until they make our eardrums pulsateand we hear sound! Without air there would be no sound.
Tones at different pitches are sounded by a wide variety of musical instruments, the earliest of which doubtless was the human voice. When tones are arranged in a recognizable pattern for one voice, the result is melody. Since voice flows like a stream, melody might be said to be horizontal music. If different pitch-sounds are heard simultaneously, as in a chord, harmony has been produced and we may think of harmony as being vertical music.
Harmony in music is primarily of two types: concord and discord. Yes, thats right! Discord, or dissonance, as it is sometimes called, is essential to music. Why? Because without dissonance there would be little or no sense of motion or movement to the music. For instance, when a piece of music comes to its end, it gives us the sense of close, or rest. The end has been accomplished, and we are given the feeling of satisfaction.
Counter-Melody
When vertical music or harmony flows in agreement with fixed rules of musical progression, very suitable accompaniment can be supplied to a well-known melody, or piece of horizontal music. With special attention being given to the patterns of harmony, a counter-melody can be devised. Our understanding and enjoyment of music are enhanced when we listen for these patterns of supporting melody as they move along with, or move in contrary motion to, the main melody. For example, as the violins of an orchestra are playing a well-recognized melody, listen to see if you can pick out a supporting melody as played by a French horn or an oboe. Thrill as you hear a passage in which flutes repeat a previously played pattern!
In this way, we are aided to appreciate the flow, or the forward movement, of the music. Repeating patterns serve as mileposts, so to speak; we become conscious of them, await their return, and enjoy the satisfaction of their fulfillment. "

 

[srramanujam]

I have been away from Tamil Nadu for about fifteen years now. I have also been away from Tamil Cable TV or magazines during this time. No offense to where i live , merely the daily grind and the rush for dal-roti/ thayir sadam.

A strange thing happened a month ago. My daughter is learning classical dance (but practices only the Star TV version at home) and i went with her for a stage performance. The teacher is from Kerala and the students are mix of south indians and gujjus. At the end of the performance, as they were thanking the admin staff, they played a completely non classical tune in the background. I just sat up mesmeriesed and it took me just five seconds to recollect the tune - "Ennadi Muniamma un kannile maiyie". It is the most irreverent piece of music i have heard in my Tamil Nadu days and it somehow stuck to my memory, sort of immortally (hoping that my memory survives me, like the hard disk survives the mobo).

People who are familiar with this song - what do you attribute this to, it is not classical, it is not pop, it is not IR or ARR. Does it classify as something special or is just my nostalgia.

I just chanced on the fact that there seems to be a remix and is popular on youtube. How do these resurrected versions appeal as much to a different generation?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSBVqJiVJlc&feature=related

 

[Asit]

Hi Ramanujam,

You have given an interesting piece. Actually a very good one for illustration. The basic notes used are S (Sadaja) R (Shudhha Rishav) M (Shudhh Madhhyam) P (Pancham) n (Komal Nishad). It also uses D (Shudhha Dhaivat) and perhaps other notes peripherally, but they do not contribute to the main melody. Now if you look at the dominant scale (which is as said above S R M P n), then you find the following substructures: P (lower octave) n (lower octave) R forming a minor triad and n (lower octave) R M forming a major triad. This is actually one of the pentatonic scales found in folk music all over the world and forms the basis of the raga Megh (or Sarang or Madhhyamavati) found also in the beginning movement of Chhaiya Chhaiya as mentioned in the previous post.

By translation of the tonic, that is making R as S (then making M as S and so on), one gets in total 5 pentatonic scales. Raga Mohanam (Bhoop or Bhupali in North India) and raga Hindolam (Malkauns in North India) are two pentatonic ragas or scales obtained this way from the scale SRMPn. BTW, this method of translation of the scale has been called "Murchhana" in the literature.

No wonder this melodic structure has been kept in your memory so effortlessly for years. That's what melody does. Nearly perfect example.

Regards.

PS: I only hope the remix was in slower tempo and had a bit less accompaniment so that the soothing effects of the melody would have come out better.

 

[srikarkav]

well as far as i know this is folk. I am certain 'Ennadi Rakkamma' is also a number you remember to this date.There are many folk songs filmy and otherwise which have survived time.

cheers,
sri

 

[Asit]

Hi Sri,

I am not saying this is a piece of classical music. It is most probably a popular version of a folk piece. But it has all the basic ingredients of the melodic structure that forms a certain raga. This why I said elsewhere in this forum that ragas are products of nature, we discover them from time to time, you do not really invent them. Ragas in Indian classical music are just a higher and more sophisticated (and more elaborate) form of the basic melodic structures.

Regards.

 

[srikarkav]

Hi Sri,

I am not saying this is a piece of classical music. It is most probably a popular version of a folk piece. But it has all the basic ingredients of the melodic structure that forms a certain raga. This why I said elsewhere in this forum that ragas are products of nature, we discover them from time to time, you do not really invent them. Ragas in Indian classical music are just a higher and more sophisticated (and more elaborate) form of the basic melodic structures.

Regards.

Hi asit,

sorry i was saying it to SRR. While i was typing your post pipped mine

cheers,
sri

 

[Asit]

Hi Sri,
I already understood it. But had to clarify my point so that there is no confusion among others who may be reading this .

Regards.

 

[cooltoad]

Since the erudite members (esp, Asit) have turned the nature of this discussion from a slugfest to a meaningful one, I have a couple of doubts.

People say that most of the music in Western is based on just two ragas, Sankarabaranam, Kalyani (maybe Mohanam to an extent) and the chinese music is almost entirely based on Mohanam. Is it true? Does it mean that our structure has infinitely more variety?

 

[srramanujam]

and the chinese music is almost entirely based on Mohanam.

About chinese, that is what my younger brother, the Rehman baiter, believes, and also that there is infinite variety that they have discovered within that.

 

[srramanujam]

Hi Ramanujam,

PS: I only hope the remix was in slower tempo and had a bit less accompaniment so that the soothing effects of the melody would have come out better.

The original version that i remember didnt have these extras and sounded quite haunting.

Also, what do you think hawa hawa is, another haunting song, so is yara sili sili

YouTube - hawa hawa- hasan jahangir

YouTube - yaara sili sili f/m lekin...

 

[thevortex]

Hi Sri,

I am not saying this is a piece of classical music. It is most probably a popular version of a folk piece. But it has all the basic ingredients of the melodic structure that forms a certain raga. This why I said elsewhere in this forum that ragas are products of nature, we discover them from time to time, you do not really invent them. Ragas in Indian classical music are just a higher and more sophisticated (and more elaborate) form of the basic melodic structures.

Regards.

So, Asit, when these renowned artists 'invent' new ragas, you are saying it is more like a discovery? Considering that our ragas are based on the 7 swaras, is there not a mathematically finite number of ragas that are possible? Or is there something more than mere math going on here? I hope so, as I am not very much on good terms with math

 

[srikarkav]

Asit your post has made me remember the acrimonious fight Balamurali and Veenai S Balachander had when Balamurali said he has invented some ragas. SB hotly contested his claims and it became a personal slugfest between them.

cheers,
sri

 

[grubyhalo]

The original version that i remember didnt have these extras and sounded quite haunting.
Also, what do you think hawa hawa is, another haunting song, so is yara sili sili

Would you know if the album was released as a CD? Thanks!