Is price indicative of quality of gear?

[kratu]

“What is your budget?” is a question I’ve got from couple of dealers. My answer would actually be “It is none of your business” but I would blurt out some number anyway. It is a bit annoying and doesn’t really matter for me. Probably, the dealer would actually want to ask “What is your net worth?”, “Are you serious enough to spend this amount on it?” Or “do you really have deep pockets for me to fleece?”

For folks who have a strict limit, the constraint can help to narrow down. For those who have monies to spend on, the search can get even more confusing. And, just because one has the cash doesn’t mean they would want to spend their bank balance on the gear. There could be other vain pursuits and vices to spill on.

Subtly veiled inside this budget query is the notion that high value products have higher quality. And this could smell of snobbery.

“In this budget this is the best you can get”.
"As you go higher, there is diminishing returns". "Double the price doesn't mean 100x the quality".
"The best of these product category is in the * budget range"

Okay, I get it. Higher value products might have expensive components and are carefully handcrafted. Having said that, I’m not sure audio products justify the price beyond a range. The cost to manufacture might actually be fraction of the price tag. I hear that dealers get a 40-60% markup! Add to that the customs and shipping of “luxury” products.

I can also understand that this is a niche market and I would support the manufacturer/founder for spending years or decades perfecting their products.

On the other hand, brands can set the price sky high to create an illusion of “high-end”, “luxury” category. With an aura of that superior taste, enough to induce placebo for people. “Hey this is ultra-high-end, and this is in a different level!”

Price is different from intrinsic value. This is subjective and discerning customers would really measure the gear for it is worth.

What do you think? Is price indicative of quality? Do expensive products mean superior quality?

 

[arj]

What do you think? Is price indicative of quality? Do expensive products mean superior quality?

There is price and there is cost...perhaps the best way to put it is- to get good quality the cost will increase ( depending on ones own expectations of quality) but just because the Price is high , it does not mean it is a good product. But again isnt that true in all consumer goods ?

of course there is limit to it..and all of us have a sense of whats reasonable for us and whats ridiculous.

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

No.

High priced audio gear is for snobs.

If one has a brain they will see through the fluff and look at what the gear actually does and is capable of and if that meets his objective. Further to see if a lower priced alternative is equal or superior for his stated goals.

Some gear (particularly pro gear) has attributes that are worthy of price.

The world is consumed by elitist snobbery, especially indians. That is why branded products sell so well in india. From bags to watches to even washing machines.

 

[Yelamanchili manohar]

I've lately been pursuing DIY builds with OCD hobbyists. I want hand built, technically superb equipment built by fanatics. Having no brand doesn't bother me one bit. As I don't factor in the resale consideration when buying.

The price of a commercial product is 5 to 6 times the price of the components. From here on, depending on a brands standing it only goes upwards. So by going DIY I actually save a lot in the bargain. So each to his own I guess.

 

[arj]

The price of a commercial product is 5 to 6 times the price of the components. From here on, depending on a brands standing it only goes upwards. So by going DIY I actually save a lot in the bargain. So each to his own I guess.

Thats so true even if you factor in economies of scale etc a DIY can give one far better value for money . As long as the design is something good and is repairable you will do far better.

 

[Kannan]

Does price justify quality! Mostly not, especially in audio as "Higher the price, better the performance" is an accepted norm amongst audiophiles.
This is one of the most convulted market where everyone in the sales chain except the end user gets a piece of the cake.

But one good thing in audio is that buyers have wide options to choose from if they don't get stuck up in the snobbery of Price = Performance adage.

 

[aeroash]

Thats so true even if you factor in economies of scale etc a DIY can give one far better value for money . As long as the design is something good and is repairable you will do far better.

Yes, this is the critical point. The design has to be tried and tested and is found successful with several examples and testimonials, or else costs can escalate rapidly.

Building a complex box like this, with no prior examples can be expensive, and may not be fruitful at all in the end, for all the effort that went into it.
(the link below is just to showcase an example and I'm in no way critiquing the speaker)

My DIY speakers "J&N"

Hello, A model of my DIY loudspeakers i have served Ti6k- JBL. My first contact with them, was in distant 2005. I started working with them in 2009 and finished in 2012. The loudspeakers are "SEAS"- Excel / Tw-1”, Mw-5”for center 2х 5.5”,Bass-8,5”/ and cross-over parts- "Intertechnik". Nominal...

www.hifivision.com

Does price justify quality! Mostly not, especially in audio as "Higher the price, better the performance" is an accepted norm amongst audiophiles.
This is one of the most convulted market where everyone in the sales chain except the end user gets a piece of the cake.

After a point, it's about luxury and exclusivity more than anything else.

 

[arj]

After a point, it's about luxury and exclusivity more than anything else.

It all comes down to relative value of that price which varies by product and person.

Buying a Merc Maybach at 3cr might feel the same to a Mukesh Ambani as buying a Rs1500 LP for me. For him its just another asset while for me its a overpriced and exclusive luxury which makes no sense to own. But again may be there is a Car aficionado about the same as me who is so enamored by the Maybach and what it stands for that he/she saves up/takes a loan etc and buys it.

I certainly will not be judgmental on any of the 3 above as each has there own perception on the value of that product .

Then there is that case of a Japanese Audiophile who set up a power transmission pole dedicated for his audio

 

[keith_correa]

What do you think? Is price indicative of quality? Do expensive products mean superior quality?

Mostly, yes! Though like in every space, there are scammers in this space too.

 

[Yelamanchili manohar]

Thats so true even if you factor in economies of scale etc a DIY can give one far better value for money . As long as the design is something good and is repairable you will do far better.

I wouldn't go DIY with streamers or dac's as the technology is still progressing. But I prefer DIY with tube gear. Well proven designs are openly available and are repeatable, and have been proven over and over again . If we see audio note, their schematic for their gear from stage 1 to 5, is the same. Only the quality of parts is improved as we go up the ladder. In fact they sell kits with the same parts if one wants to build his own.

So I've known some extremely knowledgeable gentlemen who've been building tube gear for their own use for decades in the UK. And their gear has been played at shows with very favourable comments from other forum members whose ears I trust. And some of them are open to build for others, and some are not. Some share my listening tastes and some not. So considering their access to some great components, it actually makes a lot of sense to commission a build with quality parts. Of course it is still a gamble and does not carry a brand name. But I find it more exciting deciding what parts and outcome I want. And if it works as desired, it will be more rewarding for me, than buying a commercial product, because I too had a role in the build.

 

[alladinkachirag]

I would say I am happy with the "most expensive" audio gear I ever owned - Cambridge Audio CXN V2 streamer. For many many years I have been tinkering with RPI's or Cubox based setups with Volumio, LMS and what not. And with each new tiny piece I added, came lot of cables and at one point my better half said "enough is enough" - so take away all these cables or sell your stuff. CA CXN came to the rescue that eliminated many of these cables, giving a clean look to my entertainment cabinet and also beautiful to look at. Of course I could have tried cable management, that I did, but paying the money to get a one box made much sense. So, sometimes yes the quality can come at a price - however as everyone else have said there are scamsters who can position stuff at higher price without any real benefits from those. That is precisely the reason why I love this forum, where people help you to make a very informed decision where to best spend your money.

 

[kratu]

I've lately been pursuing DIY builds with OCD hobbyists. I want hand built, technically superb equipment built by fanatics. Having no brand doesn't bother me one bit. As I don't factor in the resale consideration when buying.

The price of a commercial product is 5 to 6 times the price of the components. From here on, depending on a brands standing it only goes upwards. So by going DIY I actually save a lot in the bargain. So each to his own I guess.

DIY offers superior value for what we pay for. It has its own costs like time and effort required to measure and refine. When you find someone who is knowledgeable and understands your requirement, that would be beneficial. This also offers a number of ways one can customise the product and also scale that, if one needs to. We just need to factor in the cost of time spent.

 

[kratu]

There is price and there is cost...perhaps the best way to put it is- to get good quality the cost will increase ( depending on ones own expectations of quality) but just because the Price is high , it does not mean it is a good product. But again isnt that true in all consumer goods ?

of course there is limit to it..and all of us have a sense of whats reasonable for us and whats ridiculous.

Agree. Intrinsic value of a product can be quantified based on various factors. Cost is one major factor; add to it, the expenses to market, R&D, the expertise. Even then, cost can be relative and based on individual preferences and what value it brings to them. If one gets a "better" suited product for much less, why spend higher?

 

[arj]

Agree. Intrinsic value of a product can be quantified based on various factors. Cost is one major factor; add to it, the expenses to market, R&D, the expertise. Even then, cost can be relative and based on individual preferences and what value it brings to them. If one gets a "better" suited product for much less, why spend higher?

For consumer goods above that add supply chain costs, taxes, dealer and distributer margins as well as inventory holding costs.

While we are ingrained to get a Deal in price in most things. Some are Truly too good and some are Too good to be true . As long as we figure out the difference , its good !

Else ask in a forum..and get far more options than you started out with

 

[Shammi Dang]

My answer is little off track as I have tried best to answer the why factor.

When it comes to Audio and AV set ups majority of Indians do not trust the products made in our own country because of various reasons. The topmost is the "snob value" attached to owning a foreign brand, acceptance among peers. Second very important one is the limited choice of such Indian made products. You Tube and other social media/blogs has influenced us so much that we often end up buying more then we can afford and sometimes even non required items. The very appropriate example is of High value Mobile phones.

To some extent price is indicative of the quality of gear. It is because a company keeps price depending on the cost of R & D, quality of component used in product but this is applicable when person buy product made in the same country. The cost of imported audio products in India is sometimes double to the MRP value in parent country and we have to take into consideration the conversion of dollar into rupees. Whereas if an Indian company invest in good R & D efforts and use high quality components to manufacture the same in India it will be not even at half the price of imported ones. But Indian company will not be able to sell it in numbers as buyers have mind barrier so they manufacture mediocre products for common users (Example- Home theatre set ups in form of sound bars and speakers that are all in one sound system, tuners, Bluetooth compatible etc). Mass production for mass consumption of price sensitive market, quality is just average.

The satisfaction is all in our brains. A lower income class person who finds it difficult to run the daily expense of his home will feel satisfied with even a DIY amp and speakers or some cheap local made ampli-speakers and will enjoy it because of his limited buying capacity. Whereas the middle and the higher middle class will suffer the most in this case as there are social factors that come into play so the end result is satisfying the " snob value" to keep up with the rich guys who can afford it easily.

If we come out of this mindset then we can find satisfaction in what we can afford without going into debts/loans or else if there is some grave need we can invest in "slow and steady" without you tube/other social media influence.

 

[reubensm]

Actually this is a good point and my view is - someone enquiring about budget is more to do with assisting the listener to find the most appropriate piece of gear which is affordable (within the range of what one can spend) for the listener. With all aspects relative to life on earth, there are multiple products available across different price ranges and it is not always necessary for quality and value proposition of the product to be relative to price.

 

[eastofthesun]

“What is your budget?” is a question I’ve got from couple of dealers. My answer would actually be “It is none of your business” but I would blurt out some number anyway. It is a bit annoying and doesn’t really matter for me. Probably, the dealer would actually want to ask “What is your net worth?”, “Are you serious enough to spend this amount on it?” Or “do you really have deep pockets for me to fleece?”

For folks who have a strict limit, the constraint can help to narrow down. For those who have monies to spend on, the search can get even more confusing. And, just because one has the cash doesn’t mean they would want to spend their bank balance on the gear. There could be other vain pursuits and vices to spill on.

Subtly veiled inside this budget query is the notion that high value products have higher quality. And this could smell of snobbery.

“In this budget this is the best you can get”.
"As you go higher, there is diminishing returns". "Double the price doesn't mean 100x the quality".
"The best of these product category is in the * budget range"

Okay, I get it. Higher value products might have expensive components and are carefully handcrafted. Having said that, I’m not sure audio products justify the price beyond a range. The cost to manufacture might actually be fraction of the price tag. I hear that dealers get a 40-60% markup! Add to that the customs and shipping of “luxury” products.

I can also understand that this is a niche market and I would support the manufacturer/founder for spending years or decades perfecting their products.

On the other hand, brands can set the price sky high to create an illusion of “high-end”, “luxury” category. With an aura of that superior taste, enough to induce placebo for people. “Hey this is ultra-high-end, and this is in a different level!”

Price is different from intrinsic value. This is subjective and discerning customers would really measure the gear for it is worth.

What do you think? Is price indicative of quality? Do expensive products mean superior quality?

Honestly , I wouldn't let the question irk me so much , cos that's something every sales person would ask, be it buying a house/car or for that matter even shoes . I guess they are just doing their job . Finally the buck stops at us whether , we like what we see , in this case hear and experience and if we can afford it. Also like arj rightly put it there are various factors which add to the cost and finally at some point the brands are going to charge for their name which they have built over time. Finally i'm sure that when one takes the pains go to audition setups one would trust their own judgement rather than be swayed by what the salesperson has to say. If people do get swayed by brand names and price tags then they are only there for the pride of ownership and nothing more. So i wouldn't diss the high end products or the budget products cos finally the bottom line is "bas mazaa aana chahiye" .
Cheers!
Anand

 

[sachinchavan 15865]

When you move from economy to premium to luxury to ultra-luxury segments, the price-value equation transforms itself. One cannot apply the same yardsticks to justify value across all of them. As one’s affordability increases, one’s value perception (usually) changes. What constitutes as important parts of value (eg cost efficiency and durability) for economy would be comparably less important for premium segment who’d perhaps value peace of mind, aesthetics and performance relatively more. The luxury segment is likely to derive lifestyle value, pride of possession and entry/access to privileged society (clubs etc) through their purchases. For ultra-luxury it could be unique possession (exclusivity) and visible cues of power.

In other words, quality isn’t the only parameter on which products are valued. And someone who pays multiple times the price that is justified purely on the basis of quality isn’t a fool.

To understand anyone you’ve to get into their shoes or empathise with them without prejudice. That’s always difficult for any of us - reducing our prejudices is a work of a lifetime. Yes, ideologically we can have our stances for/against any of these. But as long as we don’t disrespect those who differ from ours, we’d be able to live ours more peacefully, even internally.

 

[arj]

When you move from economy to premium to luxury to ultra-luxury segments, the price-value equation transforms itself. One cannot apply the same yardsticks to justify value across all of them. As one’s affordability increases, one’s value perception (usually) changes. What constitutes as important parts of value (eg cost efficiency and durability) for economy would be comparably less important for premium segment who’d perhaps value peace of mind, aesthetics and performance relatively more. The luxury segment is likely to derive lifestyle value, pride of possession and entry/access to privileged society (clubs etc) through their purchases. For ultra-luxury it could be unique possession (exclusivity) and visible cues of power.

In other words, quality isn’t the only parameter on which products are valued. And someone who pays multiple times the price that is justified purely on the basis of quality isn’t a fool.

To understand anyone you’ve to get into their shoes or empathise with them without prejudice. That’s always difficult for any of us - reducing our prejudices is a work of a lifetime. Yes, ideologically we can have our stances for/against any of these. But as long as we don’t disrespect those who differ from ours, we’d be able to live ours more peacefully, even internally.

well put Sachin

As an example of the highlighted word above. Since we do have a shoes thread. . we have shoes from 500-900 from companies like Relaxo/Paragon/Walkaroo and then we have the 25K+ by wonderfull cos like Bridlen

an uncle who uses a walkaroo sandal he bought at Rs350 swears by its quality and value and so will a happy customer from Bridlen with a wonderfully crafted good year welted Oxford. the person with the walkaroo is perhaps more well off in terms of assets and net worth than many of us but of course does not attend board meetings or socialite events for which the latter might give more value.

calling one a cheapo who cannot appreciate quality or the other a snob obsessed with unnecessary particulars both can be classified wrong as both have derived value for what they value the expectation from the product !

 

[Kannan]

When you move from economy to premium to luxury to ultra-luxury segments, the price-value equation transforms itself. One cannot apply the same yardsticks to justify value across all of them. As one’s affordability increases, one’s value perception (usually) changes. What constitutes as important parts of value (eg cost efficiency and durability) for economy would be comparably less important for premium segment who’d perhaps value peace of mind, aesthetics and performance relatively more. The luxury segment is likely to derive lifestyle value, pride of possession and entry/access to privileged society (clubs etc) through their purchases. For ultra-luxury it could be unique possession (exclusivity) and visible cues of power.

In other words, quality isn’t the only parameter on which products are valued. And someone who pays multiple times the price that is justified purely on the basis of quality isn’t a fool.

To understand anyone you’ve to get into their shoes or empathise with them without prejudice. That’s always difficult for any of us - reducing our prejudices is a work of a lifetime. Yes, ideologically we can have our stances for/against any of these. But as long as we don’t disrespect those who differ from ours, we’d be able to live ours more peacefully, even internally.

Very well put that the vision of value changes from one's perspective which an individual or a critique must respect.

However, speaking purely from facts, not taking into an individual's perspective or purchasing strength, the term 'Value for money' and 'Value Add-Ons' hold true.