Is price indicative of quality of gear?

[keith_correa]

we have shoes from 500-900 from companies like Relaxo/Paragon/Walkaroo and then we have the 25K+ by wonderfull cos like Bridlen

So what made you term Bridlen a "wonderful" company and Relaxo/Paragon/Walkaroo just companies? Just asking!

 

[Kannan]

So what made you term Bridlen a "wonderful" company and Relaxo/Paragon/Walkaroo just companies? Just asking!

now you know, why we call you a WONDERFULL guy

 

[edjamesx]

In general there's a say "You get what you paid for". In current trend I think it may not be true always. If you take any high branded products they did not compromise on price. But they also have failures in their product lines. Even top brands like Mercedes,BMW,Audi..etc is no exception.
At the same time new brands/non-branded also have exceptional products, which is very well priced.

It also applies to audio world. Some people Like BOSE speakers / most people bash them . Also, with respect to audio market, I think price to satisfaction may not be true always even their quality is top notch. It also depends on the personal preference.

I think as consumer we need to research and choose best to satisfy our needs.

 

[reubensm]

Nice, actually i have experienced this myself. When sitting at the bottom of the chain in the early times, i had dreams and aspirations of high end gear, mostly based on experiences during my travels, what I heard from friends and absorbed through online reading. Hifivision did fuel these aspirations to a great extent. Later when the career developed and funds were no more a constraint, I indulged and splurged on the way up, only to realise that i had started listening to the rig and not the music. I noticed that folks around me could'nt care less if they were listening to their favourite song on a Garrard 301 or a blue tooth speaker. After a lot of introspection and self-rehab for curbing the addiction towards buying fancy expensive gear, I have now reached a point where I am happy and content listening to my current rig. I have done some scalling down which has made me feel even happier.

 

[keith_correa]

now you know, why we call you a WONDERFULL guy

I'm "full" of it!

 

[arj]

So what made you term Bridlen a "wonderful" company and Relaxo/Paragon/Walkaroo just companies? Just asking!

actually all the other 3 are beyond wonderful and they run a great operation and make more footwear per day than most global brands we know !
bridlen is miniscule in relation even with their OEM exports.

In terms of build quality and finish Bridlen is leagues ahead although beyond my affordability for a shoe and funnily have spent more on power cables

 

[kratu]

When you move from economy to premium to luxury to ultra-luxury segments, the price-value equation transforms itself. One cannot apply the same yardsticks to justify value across all of them. As one’s affordability increases, one’s value perception (usually) changes. What constitutes as important parts of value (eg cost efficiency and durability) for economy would be comparably less important for premium segment who’d perhaps value peace of mind, aesthetics and performance relatively more. The luxury segment is likely to derive lifestyle value, pride of possession and entry/access to privileged society (clubs etc) through their purchases. For ultra-luxury it could be unique possession (exclusivity) and visible cues of power.

In other words, quality isn’t the only parameter on which products are valued. And someone who pays multiple times the price that is justified purely on the basis of quality isn’t a fool.

To understand anyone you’ve to get into their shoes or empathise with them without prejudice. That’s always difficult for any of us - reducing our prejudices is a work of a lifetime. Yes, ideologically we can have our stances for/against any of these. But as long as we don’t disrespect those who differ from ours, we’d be able to live ours more peacefully, even internally.

Our discussion is restricted to audio equipment. Unlike a luxury car or expensive bag which may be toured outside for signalling social status or power; audio products are for personal use. They have a clear function and that is to make music enjoyable. Moreover, the audiophile community is so small and inaccessible for anyone outside that it doesn't make sense to shell money to signal status. Many would consider audiophiles as loonies if we say we spend $$$$ on a DAC because of their <audiophile jargon here> and how they are featured in <expensive 'paid' review mags>. We don't need to go anywhere outside, our spouses wouldn't get it.

There is a distinction between intrinsic value and perceived value. Brands use all their might to enhance the perceived value of the products. There are businesses which have different brands that market to each of their customer segments. I'd personally prioritise on evaluating intrinsic value of audio products and take a call rather than trying to project status. Frankly, nobody cares.

Well, if someone still wants to project their power status through their audio purchases, that's their money and their call. We shouldn't be looking down on people based on their own lifestyle choices. There is snobbery on the elite and then there is inverted snobbery from the masses as well. (general dislike of the expensive, luxury products or their consumers). I think the discussion shouldn't have prejudice but help us be more rational and sensible.

 

[sachinchavan 15865]

Our discussion is restricted to audio equipment. Unlike a luxury car or expensive bag which may be toured outside for signalling social status or power; audio products are for personal use.

Wonder what you’d think of the huge sums people spend on decorating and redecorating their homes then! You don’t tour outside with that either. It’s not uncommon to see audio equipment even pitched for their interior decoration value - my humble Castle speakers are positioned by the manufacturer as ‘furniture’ as well (which too, I valued in purchasing them).

And frankly, almost every audiophile (myself being no different) has demonstrated a pride of possession whenever he has entertained audiophile/non-audiophile visitors to his home. It’s not uncommon to see visitors nagged to listen to one more CD/LP to show how the system brings out a certain aspect of the sound better!

Even if you aren’t showing off to the world, there’s a certain value you yourself derive from possessing an expensive item. Our self-esteem is a pretty complex phenomenon that is a sum total of so many things!

And all of that’s ok, as it’s just being human.

 

[arj]

Our discussion is restricted to audio equipment. Unlike a luxury car or expensive bag which may be toured outside for signalling social status or power; audio products are for personal use. They have a clear function and that is to make music enjoyable. Moreover, the audiophile community is so small and inaccessible for anyone outside that it doesn't make sense to shell money to signal status. Many would consider audiophiles as loonies if we say we spend $$$$ on a DAC because of their <audiophile jargon here> and how they are featured in <expensive 'paid' review mags>. We don't need to go anywhere outside, our spouses wouldn't get it.

There is a distinction between intrinsic value and perceived value. Brands use all their might to enhance the perceived value of the products. There are businesses which have different brands that market to each of their customer segments. I'd personally prioritise on evaluating intrinsic value of audio products and take a call rather than trying to project status. Frankly, nobody cares.

Well, if someone still wants to project their power status through their audio purchases, that's their money and their call. We shouldn't be looking down on people based on their own lifestyle choices. There is snobbery on the elite and then there is inverted snobbery from the masses as well. (general dislike of the expensive, luxury products or their consumers). I think the discussion shouldn't have prejudice but help us be more rational and sensible.

Thats true as this is a hobby and others are definitive status products. Audio has perhaps the largest set of ancilliary industry from cables/vibration control/ power accessories and even those which seem to work on Magic and fairy dust

Intrinsic value is what @sachinchavan 15865 was also alluding to I believe. thats also quite relative and the weightage given to factors may be different. While some may go by cosmetic or even design philosophy , some by measurement , others may even go by the sound and still others by complex combinations of all of them and then some more.

I like to think everyone listening to music care about sound quality , but the amount of caring varies to translate into effort and money to do that .

 

[kratu]

Wonder what you’d think of the huge sums people spend on decorating and redecorating their homes then! You don’t tour outside with that either. It’s not uncommon to see audio equipment even pitched for their interior decoration value - my humble Castle speakers are positioned by the manufacturer as ‘furniture’ as well (which too, I valued in purchasing them).

And frankly, almost every audiophile (myself being no different) has demonstrated a pride of possession whenever he has entertained audiophile/non-audiophile visitors to his home. It’s not uncommon to see visitors nagged to listen to one more CD/LP to show how the system brings out a certain aspect of the sound better!

Even if you aren’t showing off to the world, there’s a certain value you yourself derive from possessing an expensive item. Our self-esteem is a pretty complex phenomenon that is a sum total of so many things!

And all of that’s ok, as it’s just being human.

Sure, we could spend decorating our homes even if they aren't 'toured outside'. The point here isn't really about outside or inside. We are talking specifically about audio equipment as a means to entertain us. And, there is distinction between these and potential status products or decorations. Audio equipment might have been pitched for their interior decoration value to appease the significant other. The businesses know that they have influence on the purchasing decision, we have a term for that WAF. (Well, I don't know the value of that thingy but at least it fits well with our interiors.)

Well, it is fine to entertain others and share our experiences but I'm not sure one needs to coax them to stay longer. They either get it or don't. They might find it amusing but still wonder why spend so much for that. Their bluetooth soundbar would be fantastic. Also, we can't generalise this with including "every audiophile would demonstrate a pride of possession", when the opinion is expressed from a subjective point-of-view.

There is some irrationality to place value in possessing an expensive item, that too for a functional product like audio device. To each his own, I guess.

 

[sachinchavan 15865]

We are talking specifically about audio equipment as a means to entertain us.

Just as cars are meant to take us from point A to B?

There is some irrationality to place value in possessing an expensive item, that too for a functional product like audio device.

That sounds like a judgment. Audio device might be (just) a functional product to some, a hobby to others, proud possession to someone else. Who decides that’s not rational?

To each his own, I guess

Exactly! To each their own reasons too - forming their rationality which might seem irrational to someone else - unless they empathise.

 

[Hiten]

The cost to manufacture might actually be fraction of the price tag. I hear that dealers get a 40-60% markup! Add to that the customs and shipping of “luxury” products.

If one has keen eye and knowledge a product's workmanship shows. Most companies do not put in effort to design a product from scratch. So generally yes the manufacturing, lets say an amplifier should not cost much.

Okay, I get it. Higher value products might have expensive components and are carefully handcrafted.

Its mixed affair. Not always you will get what you pay for. The brand name counts, Some give fit and finish but inside may be crude design. Same for speakers. Top notch reputed brands showing awful measurements which compete low quality products. I read a reputed speaker company used some highly affordable drivers in some of their models.
Marketing, Brand name, designer name. fit and finish, hype, power of suggestion drives most of the market. Nothing wrong in that. We live in capitalist world. A good 100watt amp and three way speaker should satiate most people who need good sound reproduction but we all are unique. Our needs, likings and desire to spend money are different.
regards

 

[kratu]

Just as cars are meant to take us from point A to B?

That sounds like a judgment. Audio device might be (just) a functional product to some, a hobby to others, proud possession to someone else. Who decides that’s not rational?

Exactly! To each their own reasons too - forming their rationality which might seem irrational to someone else - unless they empathise.

Fair enough. To each his own. It is individual choice and preference to use as functional product or proud possession. As I said, one who has the monies has autonomy to use it the way he/she wants. For most audio products are functional and what they are meant for is to bring closer to music they like, to create emotional connect with the music and the artists. From the majority of the people I have seen and heard from, they look it this way. There might be others who see things differently.

Quality of the sound reproduction is what makes people pay for. And that is a gentle segway to the the topic of the thread is the question "Is price indicative of the quality?" Quality here is a subjective term here and everyone has their own metric for evaluating the quality of a product. From what I can summarise, for some price to some extent could be indicative, may within a price range. If one maps all the various products in a matrix, there will be a some overlap.

Honestly , I wouldn't let the question irk me so much , cos that's something every sales person would ask, be it buying a house/car or for that matter even shoes . I guess they are just doing their job . Finally the buck stops at us whether , we like what we see , in this case hear and experience and if we can afford it. Also like arj rightly put it there are various factors which add to the cost and finally at some point the brands are going to charge for their name which they have built over time. Finally i'm sure that when one takes the pains go to audition setups one would trust their own judgement rather than be swayed by what the salesperson has to say. If people do get swayed by brand names and price tags then they are only there for the pride of ownership and nothing more. So i wouldn't diss the high end products or the budget products cos finally the bottom line is "bas mazaa aana chahiye" .
Cheers!
Anand

The question of budget is an important factor in narrowing down. Fellow members can make a suggestion when we know that constraint. If that question is used for profiling customers, it can be condescending. Frankly, there are occasions that people are confused and might be clueless about what is on offer, what their preferences are and how to attach a certain value. Customer might circle back and say they now understand the value and can flex their budget.

Agree, it comes down to personal preferences and how they engage us regardless of price. As you said "If people do get swayed by brand names or price tags then they are only there for the pride of ownership". It is interesting to hear from the person who has those generally unobtonium products.

 

[eastofthesun]

The question of budget is an important factor in narrowing down. Fellow members can make a suggestion when we know that constraint. If that question is used for profiling customers, it can be condescending. Frankly, there are occasions that people are confused and might be clueless about what is on offer, what their preferences are and how to attach a certain value. Customer might circle back and say they now understand the value and can flex their budget.

Agree, it comes down to personal preferences and how they engage us regardless of price. As you said "If people do get swayed by brand names or price tags then they are only there for the pride of ownership". It is interesting to hear from the person who has those generally unobtonium products.

Your first sentence says it all . So why is it a problem if the salesman asks the same. He is probably doing it to see what best he can offer within one's price range. I see no reason to feel otherwise. Also people who pursue this as a hobby or passion , do their groundwork and are generally aware of what they are looking for and the price range. So the question of confusion only happens if a better alternative is offered where the difference in price is not so high cos flexing of budgets is always marginal and not a huge one .

I stand by the fact "hearing is believing" when it comes to audio. Hence i would think that ,that is the bottom line one would go by when he or she goes to audition a system. I recently had the opportunity of listening to the Engstrom Monica and Lars set up at a friends place, the system completely blew me off my feet, but it was way beyond what i could think of spending or like its called "unobtanium" . I simply spent a few hours immersed in the music and was truly happy with the aurally enriching experience. I wouldn't ever diss it out saying who in their right minds would spend that kind of money . Finally all said and done the power of making the decision lies with the individual and no salesperson can coerce you into buying something against your wish.

 

[kratu]

Your first sentence says it all . So why is it a problem if the salesman asks the same. He is probably doing it to see what best he can offer within one's price range. I see no reason to feel otherwise. Also people who pursue this as a hobby or passion , do their groundwork and are generally aware of what they are looking for and the price range. So the question of confusion only happens if a better alternative is offered where the difference in price is not so high cos flexing of budgets is always marginal and not a huge one .

I stand by the fact "hearing is believing" when it comes to audio. Hence i would think that ,that is the bottom line one would go by when he or she goes to audition a system. I recently had the opportunity of listening to the Engstrom Monica and Lars set up at a friends place, the system completely blew me off my feet, but it was way beyond what i could think of spending or like its called "unobtanium" . I simply spent a few hours immersed in the music and was truly happy with the aurally enriching experience. I wouldn't ever diss it out saying who in their right minds would spend that kind of money . Finally all said and done the power of making the decision lies with the individual and no salesperson can coerce you into buying something against your wish.

Well, as I said that it becomes a problem if a dealer does for profiling a customer. I do see an issue when that is done for gatekeeping. I understand they have make the business efficient and can't spend on every other person who inquires. I have had an occasion when a sales person looked at me head to feet and said “This is for high-end customers”. Sure, he was right. I couldn’t afford then. Now I can, but the bad taste lingers on.

Recently a dealer posted an experience on LinkedIn. He once had a prospective customer who was looking for a CD player. He took the few hours to make him at home, demonstrate the products and their benefits and also suggestions on decision making. He didn’t hear from him again. However, later on he said a customer wrote a large cheque for a home theatre project within the first meeting, all because of a good word from a person. And that’s how his three hours of investment paid off. I think if a customer likes it so much, they would find the budget for it. And that’s how the journey of an audiophile goes.

I agree with you that it all boils down to personal preferences and evaluation. Someone can find their peace with a Caravan radio, or a vintage speaker which is extremely affordable. And someone else might find what they are looking for in a "high-end" products. Dissing them for their expensive price tag isn't right.

 

[Passive_audio_enthusiast]

“What is your budget?” is a question I’ve got from couple of dealers. My answer would actually be “It is none of your business” but I would blurt out some number anyway. It is a bit annoying and doesn’t really matter for me. Probably, the dealer would actually want to ask “What is your net worth?”, “Are you serious enough to spend this amount on it?” Or “do you really have deep pockets for me to fleece?”

For folks who have a strict limit, the constraint can help to narrow down. For those who have monies to spend on, the search can get even more confusing. And, just because one has the cash doesn’t mean they would want to spend their bank balance on the gear. There could be other vain pursuits and vices to spill on.

Subtly veiled inside this budget query is the notion that high value products have higher quality. And this could smell of snobbery.

“In this budget this is the best you can get”.
"As you go higher, there is diminishing returns". "Double the price doesn't mean 100x the quality".
"The best of these product category is in the * budget range"

Okay, I get it. Higher value products might have expensive components and are carefully handcrafted. Having said that, I’m not sure audio products justify the price beyond a range. The cost to manufacture might actually be fraction of the price tag. I hear that dealers get a 40-60% markup! Add to that the customs and shipping of “luxury” products.

I can also understand that this is a niche market and I would support the manufacturer/founder for spending years or decades perfecting their products.

On the other hand, brands can set the price sky high to create an illusion of “high-end”, “luxury” category. With an aura of that superior taste, enough to induce placebo for people. “Hey this is ultra-high-end, and this is in a different level!”

Price is different from intrinsic value. This is subjective and discerning customers would really measure the gear for it is worth.

What do you think? Is price indicative of quality? Do expensive products mean superior quality?

Price isn’t indicative of quality, but sometimes when you buy a hifi equipment, the price you pay is not just for the sound quality alone but for the craftsmanship, design(hifi is in fact a part of your furniture), company’s warranty policies, durability all together.

For example, you can buy Topping for its sound quality, but you don’t know it will survive 5 years. Also out of warranty you don’t know how they are going to react. An established firm with an acceptable level of sound quality is a better buy for long term.

There is nothing annoying I found in someone asking “what is your budget”. It saves lot of unnecessary conversations! For example if I am having only 10k with me and if someone is suggesting a magico for me, it’s pointless to me.

 

[eastofthesun]

Recently a dealer posted an experience on LinkedIn. He once had a prospective customer who was looking for a CD player. He took the few hours to make him at home, demonstrate the products and their benefits and also suggestions on decision making. He didn’t hear from him again. However, later on he said a customer wrote a large cheque for a home theatre project within the first meeting, all because of a good word from a person. And that’s how his three hours of investment paid off. I think if a customer likes it so much, they would find the budget for it. And that’s how the journey of an audiophile goes

In the above case the guy went to buy a CD player and later on changed his mind and bought a home theatre which is a completely different setup and would obviously cost more. In this case we are comparing apples to oranges . So i dont think its the best example of flexing budgets .

 

[coolsat]

I have a friend who build amplifiers and preamps for me and he always gives me the parts breakdown. And we talk about what if we replace this power transformer with another or this tube with another, etc. And many of the components that go into really good equipment are expensive. I can post a break down of a apornof 300b mono blocks that I want him to build and part alone are 9k. I can shave off about 2k or so by going with cheaper components and maybe feel fine after that. It is is again a question of how much one can afford and I have no issues with someone asking me, hey can you please recommend me a good amp preamp got about 1.5-2k and these are my listening preferences, speakers etc. There are good components at many different prices ranges.

 

[kratu]

In the above case the guy went to buy a CD player and later on changed his mind and bought a home theatre which is a completely different setup and would obviously cost more. In this case we are comparing apples to oranges . So i dont think its the best example of flexing budgets .

Thanks for poking a hole in that example. It gives another opportunity to clarify. That chap came looking for a CD player at a certain price in mind. The dealer could have turned him away saying "Boss, your price is too low and we don't sell anything that cheap". The dealer instead chose to invest around three hours demonstrating the audio equipment and technicalities of the CD players and probably gave an experience of other premium speakers/amps (talk about upselling).

The dealer never got to hear from him. He didn't change his mind and come back to buy a home theatre. His positive experience was shared to his friend/senior. And due to that warm welcome and experience the dealer got a cheque a project worth hundred times over that budget of CD player. Why? because he was treated the same way as he treat big-budget clients. As Maya Angelou says, people never forget the way you treat them. So goes the story. Now, yes it would be more interesting if he came back and bought an expensive CD player. I could have tweaked some facts in the story to make a point, but no. I wish that folks understand the narrative and the point being made.

It is not necessary one has a fixed budget it mind. We don't have to. Even if we do, it is not set in stone. I would say, boss let me understand your offerings and what makes them so valuable, instead of cutting me out. If I find them so alluring, I'll slog six times over to be able to afford that. An audiophile's journey starts somewhere at a basic level and it goes up based on their preferences. Business folks know that a sales cycle is long and winded road. A prospective customer goes through various stages of interest; and that is non-linear. Let them take their time.

 

[arj]

Thanks for poking a hole in that example. It gives another opportunity to clarify. That chap came looking for a CD player at a certain price in mind. The dealer could have turned him away saying "Boss, your price is too low and we don't sell anything that cheap". The dealer instead chose to invest around three hours demonstrating the audio equipment and technicalities of the CD players and probably gave an experience of other premium speakers/amps (talk about upselling).

The dealer never got to hear from him. He didn't change his mind and come back to buy a home theatre. His positive experience was shared to his friend/senior. And due to that warm welcome and experience the dealer got a cheque a project worth hundred times over that budget of CD player. Why? because he was treated the same way as he treat big-budget clients. As Maya Angelou says, people never forget the way you treat them. So goes the story. Now, yes it would be more interesting if he came back and bought an expensive CD player. I could have tweaked some facts in the story to make a point, but no. I wish that folks understand the narrative and the point being made.

It is not necessary one has a fixed budget it mind. We don't have to. Even if we do, it is not set in stone. I would say, boss let me understand your offerings and what makes them so valuable, instead of cutting me out. If I find them so alluring, I'll slog six times over to be able to afford that. An audiophile's journey starts somewhere at a basic level and it goes up based on their preferences. Business folks know that a sales cycle is long and winded road. A prospective customer goes through various stages of interest; and that is non-linear. Let them take their time.

In this case there are good sales men and bad ones and in the end losing one customer is the dealers loss.

but that still better quality will cost more for most things and even in audio . The opposite need not be true ie just because its expensive it need not be good.

hence the dictum buyer beware