Krell 400xi

[arj]

Its reviews like these that misguide people. Stereophile and its likes have never had the guts to trash a bad product from a company like Krell, B&W or a Dynaudio. And we all know why.

Couldnt agree with Dr B more. Krell is one of thosee Cos which have had a great heritage but a sad present. the KSA range of Claas A amps were really great..they could drive down to a 1 Ohm load.
but the 400 int amp is even worse than the 300 (which was not too bad). have heard quite a few stories if folks falling for it based on that review.

I guess it takes B@&&s of steel to trash a krell in a review!

Anyway matching a krell to a Dyn is not a great Idea unless you are very sure of what you want as the sound.

 

[jai1611]

I heard the Krell 300SI today. All in all a disappointing experience. Whilst imaging was fine, the all round sound was sterile and just a little harsh with the Dynaudios. So much so that I tried multiple sources to be sure. It will probably pair better with warm sounding speakers.

Also heard the Parasound Halo A23 (125wpc). Surprisingly good amp. Felt that it was just a notch or two below the Bryston combo (part of the blame probably goes to the pre - a Marantz PM7001) but had a warmer touch. All in all a very nice sounding amplifier (especially for the price - list price of ~69k). Its top of the shortlist currently. Just want to hear it with a proper pre once before deciding and also want to give the Odyssey amps a listen (unfortunately they dont have a dealer in Mumbai so will have to wait)

 

[Asit]

Hi Jai

The Halo A21 is supposedly the bigger and the better amp. The pre to go with is the Halo P3, however, I am not sure how good is the pre.

Odyssey Stratos is sold by ARN systems Bangalore. They have, I think, some establishment also in Mumbai. Just check with Sridhar. Somebody must be having a Stratos in Mumbai for you to have a listen.

I did consider all these power amps. Some of them reportedly are very good for the price. However, the pre for me was the spoiler. Good pres are expensive and I could not afford them. For some time I considered a passive TVC pre (Promitheus Audio) available at a very good price, but discussions led to such confusion, I was not brave enough to take the plunge.

Regards.

 

[Dr.Bass]

I heard the Krell 300SI today. All in all a disappointing experience. Whilst imaging was fine, the all round sound was sterile and just a little harsh with the Dynaudios. So much so that I tried multiple sources to be sure. It will probably pair better with warm sounding speakers.

Finally !!!

 

[jai1611]

Thanks Asit. Unfortunately, the A21 is also more than double the price (1.48l list!). I've been speaking to Shridhar about the Odyssey amps. Unfortunately, there arent any available for demo in Mumbai (although an Usher is available).

I've also been thinking about the Prometheus pre only. After listening to the Parasound, decided to take the plunge and order it. Now that I have atleast 1 viable power amp on the list, its worthwhile getting a pre.

Hi Jai

The Halo A21 is supposedly the bigger and the better amp. The pre to go with is the Halo P3, however, I am not sure how good is the pre.

Odyssey Stratos is sold by ARN systems Bangalore. They have, I think, some establishment also in Mumbai. Just check with Sridhar. Somebody must be having a Stratos in Mumbai for you to have a listen.

I did consider all these power amps. Some of them reportedly are very good for the price. However, the pre for me was the spoiler. Good pres are expensive and I could not afford them. For some time I considered a passive TVC pre (Promitheus Audio) available at a very good price, but discussions led to such confusion, I was not brave enough to take the plunge.

Regards.

 

[IndianEars]

For your budget, Advance Acoustic offers SUPER & VFM products .. Pre & Power Amps.

The Power Amps.. even the mono-blocks will fit into your budget. I particularly like their Power amps.

They are available in Mumbai, with demo.. probably home demo too.

Do check them out.

 

[Dr.Bass]

I do not like the Advance Acoustics sound as well.
To me , they again fall into the category of "no-turnoffs but nothing special".
Such amps have always sounded "uninteresting" to me. When hifi system cannot make you feel special, whats the "hi" about it.
Just my opinion. Please do listen to it.

 

[Dr.Bass]

There was a Sugden A21se for sale in Bangalore. I know the seller. Let me know if you want me to put a word across to him.

 

[Asit]

Hi Jai,

This is to confuse you further . Do not discard the Odyssey Stratos too easily. Although I have not had a chance to listen to this power amp yet, people whose ears I have depended on successfully have nothing but praise for this one (especially with the caps upgrade). Sidvee in our forum has just got one (the extreme version) and he is going to pair it up with passive pres (follow his thread). Just wait a bit and get the report.

I have heard the Usher mini dancers at Cranky's place. If the BE-718's (the speakers Sid is going to pair with the Stratos) are some sort of a bookshelf version of the mini dancers, they are best driven by powerful amps. Although as reported by others, the A52's are driven easier in comparison, at least in this aspect the Dynes are similar to the Ushers (sonically IMO they are very very different). Sid so far seems to be very happy with his stratos' driving ability of the ushers. Although nothing can be deduced from this, my guess is the stratos will drive the A52's well.

Of course, I cannot and would not discourage you from the Parasound A23. In their ad, they say the Halo line is designed by the well known Mr. John Curl. I am just not sure at the lower end of the Halo line, how much refinement would be there (the muscle will surely be there). It's a dilemma for you whether to go with an amp you have heard and liked or with an amp with praise from everybody but one you have not heard yourself. Both are similar in price, I suppose.

As promised at the beginning, this post must have confused you more. Sorry for that.

Regards.

PS: I have also heard the BE-718's with a Jaton Operetta amp at member pratimbayal's place. That amp was driving the speakers very well indeed. However at the time of my audition at pratim's place, he was using a Cyrus integrated as a pre. So I cannot tell you my final impression on the Operetta. However, forum member RoC has tested this amp sufficiently and has high praise. At the time of my amp upgrade, it did not have a matching pre from Jaton, so for me it was the usual confusion about the pre. But now Jaton has a pre too which is quite affordable and RoC again has heard this combination well enough to have liked it (from private communication, I do not think anybody has posted anything on the Jaton pre-power combo at least on this forum).

 

[jai1611]

@Dr. Bass, thanks for the offer but I'm a bit uncomfortable with the idea of a hot running Class A amp in the Mumbai summer. Also, looking for something with a bit of extra grunt

@Asit, I'm not writing off the Odyssey amps. I'll listen to the Odyssey amps the next time I am in Bangalore. These are in a higher price bracket so unwilling to buy one blind. The Khartago extreme is quoted at 75k including shipping to Mumbai and Stratos plus at 1.05L (extreme is another 20k) - not sure what sort of discounts might be possible on that.

 

[jai1611]

Anyone hear heard the Cambridge Audio 840W power amp? Seems well specified and well reviewed. In the same price ballpark as the Odyssey Stratos.

 

[Dr.Bass]

I would be surprised if CA can compete with Odyssey.

 

[neo]

Hey! Jai glad you could hear the 300si & decide for your self.
I also don't think advance acoustics will be the way to go.
All the best.
Cheers.

 

[bergkamp]

Plinius is a great choice with Dynaudio. Warm and smooth.
Krell also very popular due to it's high current delivery credentials...but it conforms more to American tastes in terms of sonic signature. Good grip on low end but loose at top.

I personally dont like the new Krell integrated offerings. Their old KSA/FPB series amps are great.

 

[arj]

ONLY if they are the older Plinius Class-A amps. The new stuff is rubbish!

+1 to the above. the 8xxx series int amps and the older SA XXX power amps were really good... and often available on Audiogon at good prices

 

[jai1611]

Auditions in Bangalore

I was in Bangalore over the long weekend and devoted a substantial part of Friday for auditions. Visited Sridhar (ARN Systems) and Prithvi (Absolute Phase).

ARN Systems

First, I would like to thank Sridhar for all his help. He was most patient on the phone as well as during the audition and very helpful with my queries. It was a pleasure discussing audio with him.

I auditioned the Odyssey amps (Khartago Extreme and Stratos Extreme) as well as the Usher R1.5 (briefly). The source was the Ayon CD1 with its volume control used as a preamp. The speakers were the Usher BE718 and later the Mini Dancer 1.

Started with the BE718 hooked up and tried each amp. Overall, the Khartago offered good quality sound (balanced, transparent and good staging) but didnt have the drive for the bookshelves. The Stratos was a big step up with improvements in almost every aspect as well as a big power reserve. Before moving to the Mini Dancers, brielfly auditioned the the Usher R1.5. I didnt like it much - it seemed like a forward amp (reminded me a bit of the advance acoustic power amp with some added transparency) so cut the audition short.

Next we hooked up the Mini Dancer 1. This speaker seemed a huge step up from the BE718. The chain with the Ayon + Stratos + MD1 was a transparent and unforgiving one (some of the old recordings made me cringe). On quality recordings, the system really shone. The Stratos seemed perfectly comfortable in this chain, showing off its scalability. To me, it seemed a substantial step up from the Parasound A23 and by default became top of my shortlist. I came pretty close to picking up the amplifier on Saturday but forced myself to wait till I've auditioned the couple of amps on my list that I haven't heard (Cambridge Audio 840W and Atoll AM200)

Absolute Phase

Next, I headed over to Prithvi's place. He seemed extremely passionate about music and offered some very helpful and unbiased advise. I'm very grateful for him for the listening experiences he provided and for the wisdom he shared.

I was there to demo the Plinius 9200 integrated amplifier. The source was a Plinius CD101 and speakers were a pair of Proac 1sc bookshelves. Despite constraints around placement, the system performed admirably. The transparency etc was top notch. The main thing I noticed was an added sense of height to the soundstage (I'm not sure if that makes any sense).

I also got the chance to listen to Prithvi's own system. A Rethm Saadhana with a Unico Research hybrid (the SET was out of service for tube changes). The CD player was an Arcam I think. This was an entirely different experience - a sense of actually being there. The only comparable system I've heard is the larger Thiel floorstander with Accuphase electronics and I felt that the Rethms were better.

I also got some though provoking advise from Prithvi. First, the source in my current set up may be a weak link and could warrant an upgrade. Second, I should consider a tube based setup given by listening habits and music preferences. The other lesson I took away was that there is no point getting an exceptional amp (like the Plinius) now as it may or may not pair well with the next speakers I buy.

Conclusions

Based largely on the honest advise from Prithvi and the listening experience with the Rethm's, I've changed my plan a bit. Originally, I'd thought of getting the best amp that my budget allowed so as to support the next speaker upgrade a couple of years out. Now, my thinking is to create a reasonabe solid state system that works well together with a good CD player (if I can find one that outperforms my current DAC in my budget). Keep the amplification such that it can be put to other uses later (possibly HT or service in the second system). Among the amplifiers, I'll stick to a decent quality power amp that pairs well with the Dynes (the Stratos extreme defined the upper end of the budget for that).

At some, as yet uncertain, time in the future, I should have the budget and the inclination for a major upgrade. At that point I'll set up an entirely separate system of the Rethm's class which should keep upgraditis at bay for many years to come. I haven't heard too many systems of that class so I cant objectively compare. To my mind, what set the Rethm system apart was that it made me consider spending that kind of money on an audio setup (something no other component in that price bracket has ever done - even the Uhser MD1's left me ambivalent about buying speakers in their price category despite being around half the price).

 

[Dr.Bass]

I have to pitch in again !!!!

You got some good advice there. It is correct that one should not just keep upgrading amps and leaving the source mediocre. Good source is very important.
However for a speaker like Dynes you CANNOT use an average amp.

To start with, the BE-718 is one of the most difficult speaker to drive. Thats the reason you found the Khartagos lacking. On the other hand the A-52 you have is a much much easier speaker to drive and handle. An amp like Khartago will just breeze along. And it will also do justice in terms of quality power that Dynes command. You really do not have to spend all the way to Stratos..really.

In this process you hear great music till you are ready to go for the big one and also your ears get trained/accustomed to high quality music reproduction.
That will help you select your next system a lot more resolutely.
And, when you are really ready for the big upgrade, you can decide whether to do it all from scratch or if you can retain any of your existing components.
Getting rid is easy friend. But your Dynes deserve a lot more than a make shift amp:sad:.

Another amp you can look at is Creek.

 

[jai1611]

Thanks for the advise Dr.Bass. Dont worry - I dont intend to compromise much on the amplifier. The shortlist is still pretty much the same. The only amp I've really eliminated is the Plinius (which Prithvi is giving an excellent price on by the way) which I thought was too much amplifier for my needs. The two amps that I plan to demo are ones that I have heard good things about and want to hear. Any idea who is the dealer for Creek?

Re. the Khartago, I understand your point but would be hesitant to buy without knowing for certain how much control the amplifier would have over the Dynes

 

[sidvee]

Hi jai1611,
I think your assesment of the stratos extreme is right on. I have about 90 hrs on mine and it has begun to drive the 718's beautifully. In fact it is the only amp that is driving the 718's this well, I had tried 2-3 other amps in the same price range. Anyways good luck with your search.
Cheers
Sid

 

[Dr.Bass]

Thanks for the advise Dr.Bass. Dont worry - I dont intend to compromise much on the amplifier. The shortlist is still pretty much the same. The only amp I've really eliminated is the Plinius (which Prithvi is giving an excellent price on by the way) which I thought was too much amplifier for my needs. The two amps that I plan to demo are ones that I have heard good things about and want to hear. Any idea who is the dealer for Creek?

Re. the Khartago, I understand your point but would be hesitant to buy without knowing for certain how much control the amplifier would have over the Dynes

That is nice to know buddy.
You certainly would not require a 200k Plinius for a 50k Dyne.
As for the Khartago vs Stratos, both will drive your Dynes with ease. The stratos should be more refined though.