Yes Anil, Captain has a pair of Electro Static Speakers - Cadence Arista.
Mr. Nelson Pass on Amp break-in
- Thread starter anilva
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Yes, I meant electrostatic panels of my Cadence Arista speakers. Thanks for clarifying Santhosh.:thumbsup:
sachu888
Well-Known Member
Hi,
I am a firm believer of caps break in,some manufacturers also provide break-in time in their data sheet.
Regards,
Sachin
I am a firm believer of caps break in,some manufacturers also provide break-in time in their data sheet.
Regards,
Sachin
reignofchaos
Well-Known Member
Caps and Tubes take time to break in. I don't think rest of the components change much.
For caps, the difference is subtle but for tubes, the difference in sound after a few hours of break-in is pretty dramatic.
For caps, the difference is subtle but for tubes, the difference in sound after a few hours of break-in is pretty dramatic.
cricfansd
New Member
Can't agree more.
As I have said before, break-ins do happen but over a very large time. By the way, SS power electronics is designed with so much design margin that Quantum uncertainty has very little effect in the device physics. It is almost as improbable as you sneezing in Chennai and it resulted in a tornado in Oklahoma.
sachu888
Well-Known Member
I recently built a phonostage and its sq has improved after 30+hrs.
Regards,
Sachin
Regards,
Sachin
LOL, good joke. You seem to be very certain but I'm not.
IMO your analogy may not be apt in the context of what is being discussed.
BTW, since you seem to agree that caps do require break-in, you would probably also agree that is sure to result in the sound which we the lesser mortals are calling break-in
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+1. My experience with tubes too...
)
there is some confusion here. when we're talking about break in, its about speakers etc improving over a period of time (during initial usage). some people are talking about degradation of quality as break in, not the same...
nshankar
Active Member
In mechanical components, depending on how the break-in is carried out, performance can improve or worsen. Maybe, same applies to electronic components as well?
Yes.
For a simple condition of amplifier, proper ventilation around the amps increases its stability and performance along with life. It serves you as per design.
During improper ventilation heat sinks becomes hotter making attached semiconductors to misbehave(or destruct). Electrolytes caps go dry/leak. So premature death of any gadget.
Again overloading an amp or driving it to clipping increases burning of material layer (actual degradation of material) the part beyond irreversibly.
I think if we take some practical situations as examples we would see something more obvious.
1. How often have you come across a product that you did not like at all when new and loved it after it broke in ?
2. How often have you come across a product which you loved when you heard it well broken in (may be at friend or dealer's place) but totally did not care when you heard an unbroken piece later in a similar setup?
I suppose you get my drift.
In my experience both the above situations are extremely rare. Most of the products that I have heard/owned new made their impressions pretty clear very early as to whether I like them or not. Yes it does improve but never enough to change my view about them radically. In fact every time I bought something new and asked the manufacturer/dealer about the burn in I was told that within the first 10 hours you will know what the equipment sounds like and whether it is your cup of tea or not. After that it is all about refinement, articulation and stuff like that.
Basically IMO, burn in happens and equipments definitely improve over time. The fact that you like the sound of your amp one evening after few hours of burn in is not illusion. You do hear something more right hence your brain comprehends it to be "better". It happens for many things around audio. But I dont believe in the theory of total transformation after burn in. It will be a super rare case and mostly a miracle to me.
But then think about it, if an equipment improves in even those subtle areas of refinement, articulation and flow of music in the initial x hours of playback it feels like a "big" improvement simply because the improvement is mostly wholesome, improvement is mostly around those ingredients which affects musicality of an equipment, none of the aspects degrade after burn in (in general) and it is all FREE OF COST
Believe me it is very difficult to get such wholesome musical improvements (without sacrificing any existing positives) through tweaks(aka cables, isolation)....regardless of the cost of the tweak. Why will one hesitate to call it a "Big" improvement ? To me it is a serious improvement, qualitatively speaking.
Listener burning in and stuff happens but I think it is being blown out of proportion. In fact there are times when you like some gear on short term listen but do not like it in long term listen...how does that happen if the Listener was burning in ?
P.S I agree that some of the equipments especially speakers do have a more dramatic change in sound as they burn in, again not talking about total transformation here.
1. How often have you come across a product that you did not like at all when new and loved it after it broke in ?
2. How often have you come across a product which you loved when you heard it well broken in (may be at friend or dealer's place) but totally did not care when you heard an unbroken piece later in a similar setup?
I suppose you get my drift.
In my experience both the above situations are extremely rare. Most of the products that I have heard/owned new made their impressions pretty clear very early as to whether I like them or not. Yes it does improve but never enough to change my view about them radically. In fact every time I bought something new and asked the manufacturer/dealer about the burn in I was told that within the first 10 hours you will know what the equipment sounds like and whether it is your cup of tea or not. After that it is all about refinement, articulation and stuff like that.
Basically IMO, burn in happens and equipments definitely improve over time. The fact that you like the sound of your amp one evening after few hours of burn in is not illusion. You do hear something more right hence your brain comprehends it to be "better". It happens for many things around audio. But I dont believe in the theory of total transformation after burn in. It will be a super rare case and mostly a miracle to me.
But then think about it, if an equipment improves in even those subtle areas of refinement, articulation and flow of music in the initial x hours of playback it feels like a "big" improvement simply because the improvement is mostly wholesome, improvement is mostly around those ingredients which affects musicality of an equipment, none of the aspects degrade after burn in (in general) and it is all FREE OF COST
Believe me it is very difficult to get such wholesome musical improvements (without sacrificing any existing positives) through tweaks(aka cables, isolation)....regardless of the cost of the tweak. Why will one hesitate to call it a "Big" improvement ? To me it is a serious improvement, qualitatively speaking.
Listener burning in and stuff happens but I think it is being blown out of proportion. In fact there are times when you like some gear on short term listen but do not like it in long term listen...how does that happen if the Listener was burning in ?
P.S I agree that some of the equipments especially speakers do have a more dramatic change in sound as they burn in, again not talking about total transformation here.
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Well, where do I begin?
I'm speaking from personal experience which is quite varied. Let me explain.I initially had 14 gauge OFC cable from USA which I bought more than a decade ago. I was using them with a Denon Integrated amp and Sony CDP for a decade or so along with Monster I/C and Lyrita I/C both of which I could not differentiate sonically.
After joining HFV the upgrade bug hit me. I bought a Marantz CD6003 and Class D power amp simultaneously and Acoustic Portrait bookshelf speakers a little later. The SQ of the CDP is definitely quite different than when it was played straight out of the box.
Since I noticed greenish patches of Cuprous oxide at a few places, I scouted around Richie Street and bought 12 gauge OFC cable. When I replaced the old cables with the new ones, the music sounded pretty horrible; muddied sound and the sound stage is like khichdi. I started using the older cable till I got dual stranded Audio Quest flat cable from a forum member. There were differences which were very subtle. The AQ is a tad brighter.
In the course of my DIY activities, I ended up buying a Luxman L80V SS Integrated amp and a Technics SU8022. Both are good but I liked the Luxman the most. When I had to replace the two main transistors which had blown due to voltage fluctuation, the sound became a pale shadow of the original. It took time to burn in and got back to it's good state later much to my relief.
I later upgraded to purchased Acoustic Portrait tube Pre and SS Power amps. I tried to replace the Lyrita - Monster combo with 'Siltech' cables which were supposed to be much more expensive but sounded terrible.
I then purchased a pair of Audio Quest IC3 interconnects and SC5 speaker cables. There was a dramatic improvement in the SQ. The missing lows came back, the sound became much more refined and pleasing.
My latest acquisition is the Cadence Arista speakers. They were the most expensive upgrade that I indulged in along with the AP amp combo. The electrostatic panels were not working and I had to get them replaced. When the panels came back, I eagerly connected them and was in for a total shock. The sound was pathetic, highs were missing, sound stage was about 2-3 feet though the speakers were spaced 7-8 feet apart. The dynamic range was so horrible that lulls and crescendos of Western classical sounded similar!! I couldn't sleep that night as I couldn't digest the fact that 80 odd K went down the drain AFA I was concerned. Day two improved the sound a bit and by day four, things were getting interesting. The speakers now sing and how.
In the meanwhile, I had also purchased Cardas Golden Reference and Yamamura Millenium 5000 Power Chords and Straightwire Maestro II speaker cables. The power cables contribute very subtly to improve the sound but I was most impressed with the Straightwire cables. They made a dramatic difference in the way my speakers sound. The inherently laid back sound of speakers changed and they now sound forward, comparatively speaking. The Bass sounds significantly taut and deep and the details that are coming out from the speakers make all my CDs sound totally different.
The differences that the cables make as and when you upgrade as per my experience are as under: -
The instrument separation gets better; Muddied mids sound lusher; There would be an addition of that sparkle to the highs; Details would be much more discernable.
The differences that burn/break-in makes the equipment sound smoother (harshness would go away); Dynamics would improve.
I'm writing this post purely out of my personal experience. YMMV (of course)
Well, where do I begin?
I initially had 14 gauge OFC cable from USA which I bought more than a decade ago. I was using them with a Denon Integrated amp and Sony CDP for a decade or so along with Monster I/C and Lyrita I/C both of which I could not differentiate sonically.
After joining HFV the upgrade bug hit me. I bought a Marantz CD6003 and Class D power amp simultaneously and Acoustic Portrait bookshelf speakers a little later. The SQ of the CDP is definitely quite different than when it was played straight out of the box.
Since I noticed greenish patches of Cuprous oxide at a few places, I scouted around Richie Street and bought 12 gauge OFC cable. When I replaced the old cables with the new ones, the music sounded pretty horrible; muddied sound and the sound stage is like khichdi. I started using the older cable till I got dual stranded Audio Quest flat cable from a forum member. There were differences which were very subtle. The AQ is a tad brighter.
In the course of my DIY activities, I ended up buying a Luxman L80V SS Integrated amp and a Technics SU8022. Both are good but I liked the Luxman the most. When I had to replace the two main transistors which had blown due to voltage fluctuation, the sound became a pale shadow of the original. It took time to burn in and got back to it's good state later much to my relief.
I later upgraded to purchased Acoustic Portrait tube Pre and SS Power amps. I tried to replace the Lyrita - Monster combo with 'Siltech' cables which were supposed to be much more expensive but sounded terrible.
I then purchased a pair of Audio Quest IC3 interconnects and SC5 speaker cables. There was a dramatic improvement in the SQ. The missing lows came back, the sound became much more refined and pleasing.
My latest acquisition is the Cadence Arista speakers. They were the most expensive upgrade that I indulged in along with the AP amp combo. The electrostatic panels were not working and I had to get them replaced. When the panels came back, I eagerly connected them and was in for a total shock. The sound was pathetic, highs were missing, sound stage was about 2-3 feet though the speakers were spaced 7-8 feet apart. The dynamic range was so horrible that lulls and crescendos of Western classical sounded similar!! I couldn't sleep that night as I couldn't digest the fact that 80 odd K went down the drain AFA I was concerned. Day two improved the sound a bit and by day four, things were getting interesting. The speakers now sing and how.
In the meanwhile, I had also purchased Cardas Golden Reference and Yamamura Millenium 5000 Power Chords and Straightwire Maestro II speaker cables. The power cables contribute very subtly to improve the sound but I was most impressed with the Straightwire cables. They made a dramatic difference in the way my speakers sound. The inherently laid back sound of speakers changed and they now sound forward, comparatively speaking. The Bass sounds significantly taut and deep and the details that are coming out from the speakers make all my CDs sound totally different.
The differences that the cables make as and when you upgrade as per my experience are as under: -
The instrument separation gets better; Muddied mids sound lusher; There would be an addition of that sparkle to the highs; Details would be much more discernable.
The differences that burn/break-in makes the equipment sound smoother (harshness would go away); Dynamics would improve.
I'm writing this post purely out of my personal experience. YMMV (of course)
My point was mostly about effects of burn in and not cables. It is possible that the ESL panel is a special case. But most speakers do tell you what they sound like within the initial period of burn in. The improvement in the case of speakers is definitely more though.
You are very correct Abhi. I was actually referring to only speaker break-in when I quoted your post.
Edit: I was actually referring to some posts on this thread but posted it here as I composed the post, on my PC over a period of 2 days and got confused as to where to post.
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Cross posting: 
I figured out what to blame the goof up on. It is the McDowell's Single Malt.:licklips::lol:
I figured out what to blame the goof up on. It is the McDowell's Single Malt.:licklips::lol:
I did hear the NAD 325 break-in after some 10+hours of playback. I was grainy and sounded like a lot of fleas buzzing around the room. Then ..
a) The SQ improved
b) My ears improved
c) Both of the above
Select best answer.
Q: Whats the difference between an Amp and a Burglar?
A: One likes to hear the sound of break-in with the first, but not the latter.
hyeah:
Q:When is breaking-in not a crime ...
A: Too easy to answer ...hyeah:
The other special thing about an amp is that you can't arrest an amp for breaking-in kaff! koff! <chokes on own jokes>
--G0bble
a) The SQ improved
b) My ears improved
c) Both of the above
Select best answer.
Q: Whats the difference between an Amp and a Burglar?
A: One likes to hear the sound of break-in with the first, but not the latter.
hyeah:Q:When is breaking-in not a crime ...
A: Too easy to answer ...
hyeah:The other special thing about an amp is that you can't arrest an amp for breaking-in kaff! koff! <chokes on own jokes>
--G0bble
cricfansd
New Member
As someone who works quite closely with the OEMS on the final product I can tell you that there are two things OEMs dread.
a) That 1-800 number call to speak to a technician. Believe me it costs lot more to the company than a 1-900 call people make to you know what kind of services.
b) The customer decides to return the product after that 2 hours of debugging with the technician.
Typically most returns are done with less than 100 hours of usage. So it is absolutely imperative for the OEMs to make sure that the product works as per spec as soon as you switch on. It should also be noted that the product was switched on during the QC testing but for a smaller time. Now you get my drift, there is no motivation for the OEMs to design some thing that sounds terrible in the beginning and sounds wonderful after magical "burn-in" for electronics.
For speakers absolutely there is "softening" of the cones etc which produce better sound.
Purchase the Audiolab 6000A Integrated Amplifier at a special offer price.
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